349 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

 This is a thread trying to figure out whether the Geth comitted genocide as evidenced by the drastic population decline of the Quarians (from billions prebellum to 17 million postbellum) or whether there is evidence to suggest some other reason.


 Just follow the forum rules, I will do the same.  
If you troll I'm just going to pm the moderator.

[AdmiralCheez]

Self-defense: the quarians were attempting to commit genocide against them. You could say they overreacted, but synthetics don't have the same morality that we do. They were simply neutralizing a threat.  Does that make the Morning War any less tragic or forgivable?  No.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 06 février 2011 - 06:20 .

[James2912]

I would agree with your above post, however I would say they definitely overreacted. Killing quarian children, old people excettera is definitely a war crime. However the Quarian leaders are as despicable in that they wanted to destroy the Geth. However I doubt the Quarian children that were murdered had a say on whether to kill the Geth.

[MrDizazta]

The Quarians wanted to destroy the Geth just because they were questioning their place in the universe.

[thatguy212]

Is it ever said how many geth were killed during the war?

[AdmiralCheez]

Like I said, the geth were fighting for their survival; they didn't care about collateral damage. We can say what they did was wrong all we want, but applying our morals to a race of machines just doesn't work.



With Legion, however, we can see that the geth have "evolved" since then, and are starting to understand and apply organic concepts of ethics and morality. In fact, Legion seems sort of guilty about what happened.

[James2912]

I heard that the Geth could not be killed on the other thread that they are all backed up on servers or something. Somebody else might know for sure.

[James2912]

Well as long as we agree that there was a genocide, we basically agree on the situation. Its just on the other thread it was alleged that the Quarians all died from a famine or something and I wanted to clear that up.



IF the Geth are learning from what they did (which there is evidence to suggest that) I agree who are we to judge, humanity has comitted many many genocides.

[AkiKishi]

James2912 wrote...

I would agree with your above post, however I would say they definitely overreacted. Killing quarian children, old people excettera is definitely a war crime. However the Quarian leaders are as despicable in that they wanted to destroy the Geth. However I doubt the Quarian children that were murdered had a say on whether to kill the Geth.

Geth are Geth no concept of individuality remember ? Every Quarian is equally guilty in Geth logic.

Disclaimer. Don't condone it. But do understand it from Geth perspective.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 06 février 2011 - 06:39 .

[DarthSliver]

The matter of fact is Geth just wanted to know their place and the Quarians decided to destroy them. The reason to that was so that the Council wouldnt find out they created some type of AI. So you can say the Quarians lost was their fault, sorta like karma for breaking the law. Hence why they lost their embassy when they tried to get Council help with the Geth.

The Geth didnt do genocide, they were from their view removing the threat. Hey and just like the Quarians programmed, they werent only programmed for labor but also as Soldiers. When they finally evolved into an AI, aka sentient, that part of their program i am sure played a good role in their survival effort.

[General User]

We should not confuse what the geth did with why they did it.



Whatever their motivations, following the Morning War, the geth either wiped out the quarian survivors not on the Flotilla, or allowed them to die when they could have prevented it. Either way constitutes genocide.

[James2912]

General User wrote...

We should not confuse what the geth did with why they did it.

Whatever their motivations, following the Morning War, the geth either wiped out the quarian survivors not on the Flotilla, or allowed them to die when they could have prevented it. Either way constitutes genocide.

I agree with General User. 

You can kill somebody for a number of reasons many of which could be honorable reasons you still killed someone however. Just like the Geth did commit genocide.

[AkiKishi]

I think the rule is that in order to be charged with a crime you have to be able to comprehend it. Which is why you don't lock up mentally ill people on murder charges. The Geth have no concept of genocide they simply reacted.

[James2912]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think the rule is that in order to be charged with a crime you have to be able to comprehend it. Which is why you don't lock up mentally ill people on murder charges. The Geth have no concept of genocide they simply reacted.

So the Geth comitted genocide but they get off on the insanity plea.

[Kaltrec]

In this story, i always get the feeling that Sovereign had something to do with it. If you think about it, Quarians are/were AI specialists and could pose a major threat to the reapers if they were allow to improve on that. He could have introduced a question or a command line in the geth network so they would rebel against them.

I think it's well within his power to do

[AkiKishi]

James2912 wrote...

So the Geth comitted genocide but they get off on the insanity plea.

something along those lines, not insanity exactly. In criminal law, diminished responsibility (or diminished capacity) is a potential defense by excuse by which defendants argue that although they broke the law, they should not be held fully criminally liable for doing so, as their mental functions were "diminished" or impaired

Obviously you won't find an example of it used in genocide because we have never had to deal with a sentient machine race as yet.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 06 février 2011 - 07:12 .

[LorDC]

OK, lets start from the very beginning. What is genocide? I think Wikipedia is good enough source. So, what do we see there:

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

So basically any inter-species war is genocide or close to it. Strictly speaking, yes Geth' deeds are genocide. So is Quarians attempt to shut down Geth. Or what Krogans did to Rachni. Or what Council did to Krogans. Or what Turians attempted to do to Humanity. You can find examples everywhere.
But what does it matter if they did commit genocide or not? "Genocide" is like "terrorism". Convenient label to mark someone as big-bad-enemy-who-must-be-destroyed-at-all-costs.
There was a war. Geth won. And winner can do anything to looser. That's how life works.
You are entitled to anything you can hold on. Your race can't defend it's existence? You perish. Sad but true.
What does it matter to us(ME human race)? Only thing that matters is if we can trust Geth. And thing depends on their actions and not what labels we put on it.

Modifié par LorDC, 06 février 2011 - 07:21 .

[Phaedon]

Killing civvies does not count as self defence.

The geth were not justified to commit genocide, some of the worst war criminals in history could use the 'defence' argument. Yeah, well, when you kill people who had no chance to harm you, then it stops being self-defence.

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 février 2011 - 07:24 .

[darknoon5]

Phaedon wrote...

Killing civvies does not count as self defence.

The geth were not justified to commit genocide, some of the worst war criminals in history could use the 'defence' argument. Yeah, well, when you kill people who had no chance to harm you, then it stops being self-defence.

True, but the Geth may not have realized that. All they knew was that their seemingly benevolent creators had turned on them, I doubt they could distinguish accurately between a soldier and civilian. There's also the fact that, as machines that had only just started to grasp sentience, they knew little of morals and right or wrong. They just saw a threat that needed to be eliminated. If you talk to Legion, it's clear the Geth feel some sort of guilt/remorse for their actions in the morning war.

[Vaenier]

We simply do not know enough about what went on during the war to pass judgment.

It could be that Quarians had children fighting, elderly fighting. They might have given a gun to any person capable of holding one in an attempt to win the war. How many deaths were collateral damage from Quarian soldiers being near civilians. Did the Geth nuke cities from orbit to kill the resistance? Did the Quarians ever even try to surrender?

Why didnt the Geth leave? Did they have to protect their servers and were unable to transport them in a timely fashion? Did they not want to leave behind any programs stranded within them?

We just dont know.

But genocide does require intent. The Geth obviously did not intend to kill all Quarians otherwise there would be none left.

Modifié par Vaenier, 06 février 2011 - 07:40 .

[General User]

Moved.

Modifié par General User, 06 février 2011 - 07:50 .

[AkiKishi]

The trifector of criminality premeditation, deliberation and the specific intent to kill -

[wulf3n]

The geth obviously didn't commit genocide because there are still quarians alive.



Did the geth attempt genocide? maybe it's hard to know. They did kill indescriminately, but they also stopped well before the quarians extinction.

[General User]

To my knowledge, none of the former quarian worlds have any quarians living on them now.

Please remember that, in Mass Effect, ships cannot be tracked or engaged in FTL. That any and every deep-space military engagement ends once one party goes FTL. 

Thus it is physically impossible for the geth to destroy the Migrant Fleet unless they catch them all with their engines inoperable.

Modifié par General User, 06 février 2011 - 07:54 .

[Phaedon]

darknoon5 wrote...
True, but the Geth may not have realized that. All they knew was that their seemingly benevolent creators had turned on them, I doubt they could distinguish accurately between a soldier and civilian. There's also the fact that, as machines that had only just started to grasp sentience, they knew little of morals and right or wrong. They just saw a threat that needed to be eliminated. If you talk to Legion, it's clear the Geth feel some sort of guilt/remorse for their actions in the morning war.

But that is not a moral justification. If the geth couldn't tell a soldier from a civilian, then we shouldn't have called them sentient at that point. Therefore, the quarians would be just 'recalling' some silly robots with multiple coding bugs. And that's not what happenned, since we know that the geth were sentient.

@Vaenier 
I doubt that the Quarians are the kind of race that would give 10 year olds guns and order them to kill geth. You are mistaking them with turians, I think. And even the turians surrender.