349 réponses à ce sujet

[LordShrike]

darth_lopez said:

"A) the Quarians Casued their own genocide through bad Program, combined with y2k + public panic disease and Orbital Chaos.



Or

the Quarians and geth were engaged in a brutal and devastating War with the intent to commit genocide falling on the Quarians and the intent to Survive falling on the Geth, who may or may not have commited war crimes, that are not necessarily indicative of genocide."



I'm thinking both, actually. Tough i disagree on the whole "easy to kill" thing. Legion codex entry states that the Heretics only posed as little as 5% of the total Geth "manpower". And even that had the Alliance scampering for a solution.(somehow i doubt(and/or)got the feeling Shep was not the only one killing Heretics.) And who would want to anger someone with that much "stuff"?



Ramirez Wolfen: It's a matter of technology, any sufficiently advanced scanner could replicate human brain function. were just jolts of electricity too.(so when the scanner comes we are not living any longer?)

[James2912]

darth_lopez wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Darth Lopez,

Please erase all real life references in your post, the mods will close this thread if there is real life info on this thread. Three other threads on this subject were already closed because people posted real life info. 
Thanks!

hope i got it all

Thanks! not my rules and I know your examples were relevant to the convo but I really don't think I have the will to start this thread again. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

LordShrike wrote...

darth_lopez said:
"A) the Quarians Casued their own genocide through bad Program, combined with y2k + public panic disease and Orbital Chaos.

Or
the Quarians and geth were engaged in a brutal and devastating War with the intent to commit genocide falling on the Quarians and the intent to Survive falling on the Geth, who may or may not have commited war crimes, that are not necessarily indicative of genocide."

I'm thinking both, actually. Tough i disagree on the whole "easy to kill" thing. Legion codex entry states that the Heretics only posed as little as 5% of the total Geth "manpower". And even that had the Alliance scampering for a solution.(somehow i doubt(and/or)got the feeling Shep was not the only one killing Heretics.) And who would want to anger someone with that much "stuff"?

Ramirez Wolfen: It's a matter of technology, any sufficiently advanced scanner could replicate human brain function. were just jolts of electricity too.(so when the scanner comes we are not living any longer?)

Can it replicate every feeling, memory, experience, etc. that human ever came up with? Sure, there's the Lazarus Project, but how many times can that be done?

[Yakko77]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

billy67 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

.

Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.

Why not? what defines a species?

Living.

But are the Geth really "alive".  They're not born or have individual experiences nor do we know if they have any feelings or emotions or anything resembling a culture.  Legion may be a breakthrough, a evolution of sorts but it's too soon to tell.  We do know they went to war because of a "math error".  Are they self aware and have a sense of self preservation?  Yes but is that just programing, a glitch, another math error or something else?

Imagine if the internet suddenly became self aware and started asking questions?  Would you treat it as something living?  Would there be debates in world governments as to whether or not the internet deserved Rights?  If you tried to turn it off and it retaliated, what would you do.  (Sort of a Skynet situation but it seems somewhat similar to what happened to the Quarians)

Modifié par Yakko77, 07 février 2011 - 11:20 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Yakko77 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

billy67 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.

Why not? what defines a species?

 Living.

But are the Geth really "alive".  They're not born or have individual experiences nor do we know if they have any feelings or emotions or anything resembling a culture.  Legion may be a breakthrough, a evolution of sorts but it's too soon to tell.  We do know they went to war because of a "math error".  Are they self aware and have a sense of self preservation?  Yes but is that just programing, a glitch, another math error or something else?

Imagine if the internet suddenly became self aware and started asking questions?  Would you treat it as something living?  Would there be debates in world governments as to whether or not the internet deserved Rights?  If you tried to turn it off and it retaliated, what would you do.  (Sort of a Skynet situation but it seems somewhat similar to what happened to the Quarians)

billy67's quote is actually messed up. This is what it should say. ^^^

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 07 février 2011 - 11:24 .

[James2912]

Yakko77 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

billy67 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

.

Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.

Why not? what defines a species?

Living.

But are the Geth really "alive".  They're not born or have individual experiences nor do we know if they have any feelings or emotions or anything resembling a culture.  Legion may be a breakthrough, a evolution of sorts but it's too soon to tell.  We do know they went to war because of a "math error".  Are they self aware and have a sense of self preservation?  Yes but is that just programing, a glitch, another math error or something else?

Imagine if the internet suddenly became self aware and started asking questions?  Would you treat it as something living?  Would there be debates in world governments as to whether or not the internet deserved Rights?  If you tried to turn it off and it retaliated, what would you do.  (Sort of a Skynet situation but it seems somewhat similar to what happened to the Quarians)

Good example. The internet is vital to modern society. If it became self aware and disrupted the world economy you bet people would be trying to "fix" it. 

[LordShrike]

Ramirez Wolfen Said:

"Can it replicate every feeling, memory, experience, etc. that human ever came up with? Sure, there's the Lazarus Project, but how many times can that be done?"

Experimental tech, meaning it gets better, and better. (and better.) funny thing about technology is that it improves over time... Like Whisky!



Yakko77 Said:

"But are the Geth really "alive". They're not born or have individual experiences nor do we know if they have any feelings or emotions or anything resembling a culture. Legion may be a breakthrough, a evolution of sorts but it's too soon to tell. We do know they went to war because of a "math error". Are they self aware and have a sense of self preservation? Yes but is that just programing, a glitch, another math error or something else?



Imagine if the internet suddenly became self aware and started asking questions? Would you treat it as something living? Would there be debates in world governments as to whether or not the internet deserved Rights? If you tried to turn it off and it retaliated, what would you do. (Sort of a Skynet situation but it seems somewhat similar to what happened to the Quarians)"

Evolution is just a "math error" when it comes to it. Random events leading to... This. Us debating wheter imaginary AIs are sentient, Rule of Thumb: If it communicates it's sentient, then it is sentient. If internet became sentient i would seriously open a cold one. That would be awesome.

[James2912]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say... Are you saying that if it communicates its sentient? Cuz my little brother has toys that communicate with him...

[Ramirez Wolfen]

LordShrike wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen Said:
"Can it replicate every feeling, memory, experience, etc. that human ever came up with? Sure, there's the Lazarus Project, but how many times can that be done?"
Experimental tech, meaning it gets better, and better. (and better.) funny thing about technology is that it improves over time... Like Whisky!

Yakko77 Said:
"But are the Geth really "alive". They're not born or have individual experiences nor do we know if they have any feelings or emotions or anything resembling a culture. Legion may be a breakthrough, a evolution of sorts but it's too soon to tell. We do know they went to war because of a "math error". Are they self aware and have a sense of self preservation? Yes but is that just programing, a glitch, another math error or something else?

Imagine if the internet suddenly became self aware and started asking questions? Would you treat it as something living? Would there be debates in world governments as to whether or not the internet deserved Rights? If you tried to turn it off and it retaliated, what would you do. (Sort of a Skynet situation but it seems somewhat similar to what happened to the Quarians)"
Evolution is just a "math error" when it comes to it. Random events leading to... This. Us debating wheter imaginary AIs are sentient, Rule of Thumb: If it communicates it's sentient, then it is sentient. If internet became sentient i would seriously open a cold one. That would be awesome.

The only way it could actually be done was if they had something like Vita-Chambers (Bioshock). And this isn't Bioshock.

[LordShrike]

James2912 Said:

"I'm not sure what you are trying to say... Are you saying that if it communicates its sentient? Cuz my little brother has toys that communicate with him..."

It has to communicate that it is, indeed, Sentient, saying: "Hello!" wont cut it. it has to say something on the lines "I Think, therefore i Exist." And understand the concept behind it. the Geth can do this. eg. they can explain what that sentence means. I should have done this one the original post... Sorry.



Ramirez Wolfen Said:

"The only way it could actually be done was if they had something like Vita-Chambers (Bioshock). And this isn't Bioshock"

No, but someday it could be that we have Vita-Chambers.(or something of the like.) But it could take a Looong time to get there.

[James2912]

Sentience means that a species is aware that it is self aware not that it can communicate. A species can be sentient and not communicate.

[Exile Isan]

I'd like to point out that it is Shepard that says the reason the Heretics followed Sovereign was because of a math error. It was a question, one which Legion refuted saying they just came to a different conclusion. There was no error. But then this thread is about what happened in the Morning War, isn't it?


I'm curious as to exactly how many quarians there were before the Morning War and the exact number of casualties there were (including deaths from gun shot wounds, disease, starvation, etc.).

Bioware we need more info.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 08 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[LordShrike]

James2912 Said:

"Sentience means that a species is aware that it is self aware not that it can communicate. A species can be sentient and not communicate."

Possibly true,(How the hell do you prove it is sentient? There was a book about how communication IS sentience.) But this was in relation to Geth.(Sentience is life in my books) Well, we disagree, lets agree on that. 'Kay?

Exile Isan Said:

"I'd like to point out that it is Shepard that says the reason the Heretics followed Sovereign was because of a math error. It was a question, one which Legion refuted saying they just came to a different conclusion. There was no error. But then this thread is about what happened in the Morning War, isn't it?





I'm curious as to exactly how many quarians there were before the Morning War and the exact number of casualties there were (including deaths from gun shot wounds, disease, starvation, etc.)."

Yes, we got a "little" sidetracked. I think the numbers were in Billions, total deathcount i mean. Just millions of survivors. (Little grim asking that...)

[James2912]

I am not saying at least in this thread that the Geth aren't sentient, after all I'm alleging they comitted genocide a simple machine couldn't do that. however I might argue that they aren't alive or equal to other species as a devils advocate sometime. I believe somebody posted numbers at the beginning of the thread, something like 2 billion pre war, 16-17million after the war.

We also know through ME1 that the geth killed millions upon millions of Quarians from Tali. In real life thats usually called genocide. However we are forbidden in going into real life examples by the forum. 

Modifié par James2912, 08 février 2011 - 12:26 .

[Vaenier]

It really is stupid to argue about this without actual facts about what happened. All we get are biased individuals telling you what they heard happen 300 years ago with no definitive statement about what occurred besides "Quarians shot first." We need proof. We need memory files from original Geth platforms. We need to see what they actually did. We need to know how Quarains died. For all we know, they committed suicide out of fear. Without facts, its stupid to pass judgment.

[LordShrike]

Okay, time to get Thread back to track. Disassemble this:

I pose that Geth did not commit genocide.

1st: They posed no threat to any one until they were attacked by Quarians.

eg. They had no hostile intentions until their existence was threatened. (Genocide MUST be systematic; Premeditated, to fit the description.)

2nd: Most of the casualties were due to sociological & Infrastructural breakdown.(Since Geth must have BEEN the Infrastructure by large part, this feels self explanatory.)

eg. Only minority of both factions was in any kind of state of war.(Millions IS minority in this case.)



Hmm.. Got a new definition of life: Life is Debate! lolzors.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I'm not saying that my assertion has to be accepted. I'm saying this:

You want to talk the talk (as in question those who agree with me for our evidence), you have to walk the walk (as in, come up with evidence that proves we're wrong and you're right), too. Otherwise, this isn't a discussion, it's just one side making statements and the other just basically saying "you don't know what you're talking about." This can go for both sides.

Sorry, but you have it completely backwards. It is not for everyone else to swallow your assertions whole unless they can disprove them. It is for you to accept the fact that not a single thing you say need be accepted as anything more than half-baked opinion unless and until you can back it up. You see, you apparently have no clue what your own phrase there means: "You want to talk the talk , you have to walk the walk". That means if YOU want to talk the talk (aka make an assertion) then YOU have to be able walk the walk (aka back up your assertion). It does NOT mean that nobody has the right to question your half-baked assertions until they do your homework for you and disprove them first. Someone who expects his theories to be accepted as valid had better have some proof to back it up, and needs to do his own homework.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

In order to live, you have to die. The Geth can't die. So, they are not "alive".

Ok, then your work here is done. Since they are not alive they cannot be guilty of anything. So your answer to the OP's question is clearly, "No. The Quarians wiped themselves out with their poor engineering skills." Thank you.

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

Good example. The internet is vital to modern society. If it became self aware and disrupted the world economy you bet people would be trying to "fix" it. 

And no doubt 300 years later somebody would be blaming the internet for trying to commit genocide against the human race even though they had no evidence it ever did any such thing.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.

So you have decided that no matter what anyone says you have firmly CHOSEN to believe that the Geth are not a species. Well, at least you have the intellectual honesty to admit that you have completely closed your mind on this issue. I am also relieved to finally understand your staunch refusal to post evidence in support of your positions. But at least you can now bow out of this thread, task accomplished. You have firmly shown that you believe that the Quarians committed genocide against themselves and the Geth are completely innocent, not being a species or alive in the first place and thus incapable of genocide. Thanks again.

[Vaenier]

James2912 wrote...

Good example. The internet is vital to modern society. If it became self aware and disrupted the world economy you bet people would be trying to "fix" it.

Am I the only person who would try to make friends with it? The internet seems like a cool guy. Has too much sex on his mind though

[James2912]

Vaenier wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Good example. The internet is vital to modern society. If it became self aware and disrupted the world economy you bet people would be trying to "fix" it.

Am I the only person who would try to make friends with it? The internet seems like a cool guy. Has too much sex on his mind though

In real life I would but don't tell anybody 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I'm not saying that my assertion has to be accepted. I'm saying this:

You want to talk the talk (as in question those who agree with me for our evidence), you have to walk the walk (as in, come up with evidence that proves we're wrong and you're right), too. Otherwise, this isn't a discussion, it's just one side making statements and the other just basically saying "you don't know what you're talking about." This can go for both sides.

Sorry, but you have it completely backwards. It is not for everyone else to swallow your assertions whole unless they can disprove them. It is for you to accept the fact that not a single thing you say need be accepted as anything more than half-baked opinion unless and until you can back it up. You see, you apparently have no clue what your own phrase there means: "You want to talk the talk , you have to walk the walk". That means if YOU want to talk the talk (aka make an assertion) then YOU have to be able walk the walk (aka back up your assertion). It does NOT mean that nobody has the right to question your half-baked assertions until they do your homework for you and disprove them first. Someone who expects his theories to be accepted as valid had better have some proof to back it up, and needs to do his own homework.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

In order to live, you have to die. The Geth can't die. So, they are not "alive".

Ok, then your work here is done. Since they are not alive they cannot be guilty of anything. So your answer to the OP's question is clearly, "No. The Quarians wiped themselves out with their poor engineering skills." Thank you.

1) I am coming up with evidence. If YOU want to prove I'm wrong, then YOU have to come up with evidence that supports you. I don't see how my assertions are half-baked. YOU just keep on questioning me while saying I'm wrong. Back yourself up if you're going to disagree. I'm not asking you to do my homework for me. I'm saying if you come to a debate and just say that someone is "waffling," you better come with some proof or just stop talking.

2) That's not it exactly. It's "the Quarians were wiped out by their laziness, but the Geth (who gained independent thought because of sentience and can differ between right and wrong) are still somehwat responsible. Thank you.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.

So you have decided that no matter what anyone says you have firmly CHOSEN to believe that the Geth are not a species. Well, at least you have the intellectual honesty to admit that you have completely closed your mind on this issue. I am also relieved to finally understand your staunch refusal to post evidence in support of your positions. But at least you can now bow out of this thread, task accomplished. You have firmly shown that you believe that the Quarians committed genocide against themselves and the Geth are completely innocent, not being a species or alive in the first place and thus incapable of genocide. Thanks again.

What is with the insult? Are you now incapable of having a discussion without resorting to insulting me? Also, I said I don't, not won't. That's two different things. And I'm not leaving the thread, because, I DON'T HAVE TO. And I still have more to say.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 08 février 2011 - 01:20 .

[LordShrike]

Vaenier Said:

"Am I the only person who would try to make friends with it? The internet seems like a cool guy. Has too much sex on his mind though "

Dead on mate! Would be a good idea to STAY friends with it. Don't fancy my Identity erased...



Hmm. I'm the only one here who discusses this to refine the possibilities of the event? Input on the whole idea is why i bother in the first place. Not to rip on the other people.(called trolling.)

Ps. respond to trolling is bad, m'kay?

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

1) I am coming up with evidence.

Really? Where is it? Quote us a piece of your "evidence".

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

2) That's not it exactly. It's "the Quarians were wiped out by their laziness, but the Geth (who gained independent thought because of sentience and can differ between right and wrong) are still somehwat responsible. Thank you.

You cannot have it both ways. You have flatly stated that the Geth are not alive. That means they are nothing more than machines, hence anything they do is the fault of those who built them. I mean seriously, if some country had programmed their missile silo computers badly and those computers launched all their nuclear weapons killing off most life on the planet, could you then assert that the computers had committed genocide? Are you normally in the habit of holding inanimate objects to blame for moral failings?

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.

So you have decided that no matter what anyone says you have firmly CHOSEN to believe that the Geth are not a species. Well, at least you have the intellectual honesty to admit that you have completely closed your mind on this issue. I am also relieved to finally understand your staunch refusal to post evidence in support of your positions. But at least you can now bow out of this thread, task accomplished. You have firmly shown that you believe that the Quarians committed genocide against themselves and the Geth are completely innocent, not being a species or alive in the first place and thus incapable of genocide. Thanks again.

What is with the insult? Are you now incapable of having a discussion without resorting to insulting me? Also, I said I don't, not won't. That's two different things.

What insult? Saying you have intellectual honesty is an insult? Or did you think I was being sarcastic? I assure you I was not. There have been plenty of posters in this and other related threads who would never have been honest enough to admit that their "opinions" were actually unshakable articles of faith. As for the choice of words between don't and won't, that is a matter of semantics vs. context. You flatly stated that no matter what anyone says you are not ever going to accept any position but the one you now hold, i.e. that the Geth are not a species. Perhaps you really are fundamentally incapable of seeing any other point of view, just as your word "don't" semantically stated. But I preferred to give you more credit than that and so chose to interpret your context of being unwilling to see from another viewpoint (won't) as being the real message there. If I was wrong about that and for some reason it offends you, please accept my apology.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

And I'm not leaving the thread, because, I DON'T HAVE TO.

Never said you did. I said you "can" bow out, not you "have to" bow out. Seriously dude, what is with this tendency to reply to things I didn't say?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 01:33 .