349 réponses à ce sujet

[LordShrike]

Pro_Consul: Chill out! Seriously!

I would like to hear your opinion on the matter. if it's not too much of a problem. All i have gathered so far that you do not like Ramirez Wolfen. And thats not very constructive...

So. Please, with a cherry on a top?

[Pro_Consul]

LordShrike wrote...

Pro_Consul: Chill out! Seriously!
I would like to hear your opinion on the matter. if it's not too much of a problem. All i have gathered so far that you do not like Ramirez Wolfen. And thats not very constructive...
So. Please, with a cherry on a top?

Read back a bit further than the last two posts. My opinion is all over this thread, dude.

As for Ramirez, I have nothing against him personally. In fact, like I said I admire his honesty. While I may have seen him contradict himself now and again, I have never seen him tell a lie, and he is generally willing to admit even embarassing truths when the occasion calls for it. Very unusual in forum discussion, that. It can be a bit trying sometimes when he insists that others accept his assertions until they are disproven, but that kinda thing happens in every thread on every forum I have been on. I am way too old to dislike  someone over something like that.

[LordShrike]

Pro_Consul: Yeah okay, point taken. Still, that was very agressive way of commenting. ;P

You really expect me to remember the names of every one who has posted? Thanks for the compliment. Only read them for general sense of where this thread is. Memorizing things is haaard.

[Pro_Consul]

LordShrike wrote...

Pro_Consul: Yeah okay, point taken. Still, that was very agressive way of commenting. ;P

What can I say? I'm an old phart and I get a bit snippy now and again. I know from experience that my precise writing style also tends to strike some people as somehow insolent or somesuch. Don't understand that myself, but I know it happens so I have to accept it.

LordShrike wrote...

Memorizing things is haaard.

Not for me. For me difficulty of memorizing is not an issue. Duration, though, well let's not go there. Err, what was I saying?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 02:29 .

[James2912]

Pro_Consul wrote...

LordShrike wrote...

Pro_Consul: Yeah okay, point taken. Still, that was very agressive way of commenting. ;P

What can I say? I'm an old phart and I get a bit snippy now and again. I know from experience that my precise writing style also tends to strike some people as somehow insolent or somesuch. Don't understand that myself, but I know it happens so I have to accept it.

LordShrike wrote...

Memorizing things is haaard.

Not for me. For me difficulty of memorizing is not an issue. Duration, though, well let's not go there. Err, what was I saying?

You were talking about how the geth comitted genocide. 

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

You were talking about how the geth comitted genocide. 

Hmm, Geth committing genocide....THOSE TIN PLATED RAT BASTAGES!!

[LordShrike]

Might not be an issue if i actually HAD tried to memorize it.



To Unit Pro_Consul:

Data you have provided has now been Skimmed, "Read" and Probed.

Concensus reached: Higher order runtimes of unit LordShrike acknowledge this as accurate and true.All other posts irrelevant to the topic, requesting lockdown.



Well, atleast you were logical. Not going to spend 3 hours dissecting some minor details.

[Yakko77]

Vaenier wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Good example. The internet is vital to modern society. If it became self aware and disrupted the world economy you bet people would be trying to "fix" it.

Am I the only person who would try to make friends with it? The internet seems like a cool guy. Has too much sex on his mind though

Yeah, with all the porn, if the internet became self aware it'd probably be super horny or something.



Just so long as the missile launch codes aren't floating around in cyberspace or anything.

[Pro_Consul]

LordShrike wrote...

Might not be an issue if i actually HAD tried to memorize it.

To Unit Pro_Consul:
Data you have provided has now been Skimmed, "Read" and Probed.
Concensus reached: Higher order runtimes of unit LordShrike acknowledge this as accurate and true.All other posts irrelevant to the topic, requesting lockdown.

Well, atleast you were logical. Not going to spend 3 hours dissecting some minor details.

Hmm, not entirely comfortable with all this talk about probes and dissection...

[darth_lopez]

James2912 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Darth Lopez,

Please erase all real life references in your post, the mods will close this thread if there is real life info on this thread. Three other threads on this subject were already closed because people posted real life info. 
Thanks!

hope i got it all

Thanks! not my rules and I know your examples were relevant to the convo but I really don't think I have the will to start this thread again. 

I know it just really ticks me off

[LordShrike]

Pro_Consul Said:

"Hmm, not entirely comfortable with all this talk about probes and dissection..."

Replace With Prodded and Scrutinize, if it makes you happy.



Was good exchange, back to ME1 for me. (Those import chars ain't gonna finish themselves) Where you have a legimate reason to shoot them Geths; They shoot you. Will definately be back for more. Happy posting everybody!



Ps. Geth are innocent! It's just propaganda Quarians hacked into Geth! They had nothing to do with it! Real reason for the decline in numbers was Civil war! (Good luck proving that this is a lie.)

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

1) I am coming up with evidence.

Really? Where is it? Quote us a piece of your "evidence".

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

2) That's not it exactly. It's "the Quarians were wiped out by their laziness, but the Geth (who gained independent thought because of sentience and can differ between right and wrong) are still somehwat responsible. Thank you.

You cannot have it both ways. You have flatly stated that the Geth are not alive. That means they are nothing more than machines, hence anything they do is the fault of those who built them. I mean seriously, if some country had programmed their missile silo computers badly and those computers launched all their nuclear weapons killing off most life on the planet, could you then assert that the computers had committed genocide? Are you normally in the habit of holding inanimate objects to blame for moral failings?

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.

So you have decided that no matter what anyone says you have firmly CHOSEN to believe that the Geth are not a species. Well, at least you have the intellectual honesty to admit that you have completely closed your mind on this issue. I am also relieved to finally understand your staunch refusal to post evidence in support of your positions. But at least you can now bow out of this thread, task accomplished. You have firmly shown that you believe that the Quarians committed genocide against themselves and the Geth are completely innocent, not being a species or alive in the first place and thus incapable of genocide. Thanks again.

What is with the insult? Are you now incapable of having a discussion without resorting to insulting me? Also, I said I don't, not won't. That's two different things.

What insult? Saying you have intellectual honesty is an insult? Or did you think I was being sarcastic? I assure you I was not. There have been plenty of posters in this and other related threads who would never have been honest enough to admit that their "opinions" were actually unshakable articles of faith. As for the choice of words between don't and won't, that is a matter of semantics vs. context. You flatly stated that no matter what anyone says you are not ever going to accept any position but the one you now hold, i.e. that the Geth are not a species. Perhaps you really are fundamentally incapable of seeing any other point of view, just as your word "don't" semantically stated. But I preferred to give you more credit than that and so chose to interpret your context of being unwilling to see from another viewpoint (won't) as being the real message there. If I was wrong about that and for some reason it offends you, please accept my apology.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

And I'm not leaving the thread, because, I DON'T HAVE TO.

Never said you did. I said you "can" bow out, not you "have to" bow out. Seriously dude, what is with this tendency to reply to things I didn't say?

1) Which part do you want me to start proving?

2) But those computers aren't sentient. They can't tell the difference between right and wrong.

[darth_lopez]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


1) In order to live, you have to die. The Geth can't die. So, they are not "alive".

2) Saying that  I should leave the thread because of my "narrow-minded" opinion is just like telling me to leave an art museum just because I only like Leonardo Da Vinci paintings.

incorrect on 1) they can die shepards killed at least 100 already and Legion nearly died.
Technology eventually wheres out and unfortunately you can never maintain everything for ever, It's likely that Magnets could kill them if they use magnetic storage in their Hardrive(their brain or their Memory system whatever you choice to call it) an EMP would or should kill the the geth. A platform with isolated Programs shutting down may kill the geth. Operation outside of recommended Temperatures may kill the geth. Burning will kill the geth. Being Paralyzed can kill the geth(can't get to hub to upload programs geth Die). A computer Virus can Kill the Geth.  Reformating should kill the Geth.  The geth are actually quite possibly the easiest faction to kill it's kinda odd that the quarians couldn't do it.

We have killed geth and we know that they can die and Do fear Death. If they did not fear death there would be no need to retaliate against the Creators and no need to stop the reapers.

on point (2)
No incorrect this is the Equivalent of me telling you to get out of a seminar because 1) you have no belief in  the material 2) you have no desire to understand the material 3) you're sole purpose is to accuse the material of being false while supporting your own material as true.

Again i wasn't meaning to Literally tell you to GTFO just a suggestion that so long as you do not view the Geth as  a Species or accept them as Alive you must by default agree that the Quarians Killed themselves and it was a self inflicted genocide. there is no way that the Non-Alive(typically indicative of dead), Non-sentient group can Deliberately Wipe out an Entire Race of sentient Alive people. However that People who created the Non-alive/dead, non sentient organic or inorganic machine can be  the cause to their own downfall.

So you are now Presented With 2 options Either

A) the Quarians Casued their own genocide through bad Program, combined with y2k + public panic disease and Orbital Chaos.

Or
the Quarians and geth were engaged in a brutal and devastating War with the intent to commit genocide falling on the Quarians and the intent to Survive falling on the Geth, who may or may not have commited war crimes, that are not necessarily indicative of genocide.

you pick those are the only conclussions that are within  your range to grasp



_________________________________________________________
Side Note Unfortunately i have to go to a linguistics class and talk a bit more about Phonology and possibly finally get into morphology for the next 3 hours so i'll be back around 10 EST

Geth can't die.  http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth is where I got this from. Also, here's an example of what I'm trying to say.

Let's say your computer was broken for good. All the data on the computer seems like it's lost forever, right? Actually, no it isn't. The info stored on that computer can be acquired again in exactly the same format (in exactly the same way) on a computer of exactly the same model. So it isn't like the computer died, because everything you had on it can you can have again in the exact same way. I don't consider that to be"living." If a human died, you couldn't get the exactly same model, the exactly same data, in the exactly same way. Meaning, that particular organic has died for good. It can't be repeated. To me, that is dying.

Alright i had a long long long Thing written then my finger slipped on my mouse and hit ht eback space button >.< T-T TT-TT 

So instead of wasting another 1:;30 minutes of typing. I'm just going to summarize.


First the Computer hard ware comment.
Depending on your method of storage and the type of failure it is impossible to recover Data there are things that can be replaced(GPU, CPU, PSU, RAM, etc.) and things that can't(Data on hard disk pending storage type.). For instance Running a magnet over you Hard Disk will erase all it's contents. Furthermore you do not ned the same type/model/make of computer to extract information from a hard disk, you just need a computer.

Further-Furthermore(i know i know) EMPs will terminate all active electronic devices, not sure if they wipe programs, but they would disable the geth longe enough for quarians to do so as they are electronic, sophisticated Electronics but electronics non the less. Why the Quarians didn't do it i don't know. 

Now here is the Whole Quote Regarding Geth Death

However, since geth do not "die" in any traditional sense (upon the destruction of a geth platform, its programs are simply transmitted to the nearest available platform) and so have no real losses to mourn from the Morning War, Legion posits that they instead clean and maintain the quarian worlds out of respect for their quarian creators who died in the conflict and in preparation for the eventuality of their return.

now there are 2 important sections here underlined. I'm Going to start with the Second Underline First.

Basically that in itself is significant as many organizations that were fully in support of genocide have never appologized in ME or the Real world this holds true Infact they feel they did the universe Favor.

Now for the 1st underline section which is important, very important as it is False and Needs to be corrected Obviously.  If this were True Legion Would simply have Transfered to the heretic station, as it was the nearest geth platform aside from him, instead of remain inside his disabled/ all but destroyed mobile platform. There would be no point in reviving legion if this were true because Legion is no longer in his body and all you'd be left with is a metal husk of circuitry that clicks and whirs with nothing else happening.

Secondly If the Geth are Synthetic, meaning Robots/androids, They need a PSU inorder to run their hardware. It is essentially their heart and The Electricity their invisible blood that flows through their Artificial Veins.if the PSU goes the Robot/Synth/android Can not function and so it can not transmit the Geth after Destruction.  This needs to be ammended. BW may have left the PSU explanation out Because anybody who knows how Eelectricty works knows that anything that needs it needs a battery or a Power Supply Unit to disperse the Energy to vital systems.

If they are lacking a PSU then they have some how developed an organic way to power themselves, and once that dies the platform dies effectively sealing the Geth inside until extracted by another geth as it still wouldn't have the power  after the organic PSU shorts out.

If their storage device is Destroyed they inturn are Dead you can't get info off a Cracked super dusty Hardisk that's been lying in the desert forever. I'd imagine the same happens in ME. 

So either by lacking to mention the PSU for the geth They(wiki personel) are either (A) imjplying geth are organic mechanical and thus alive by your standards (as all organic compunds must die) or ( assuming typical wear and tear has been acounted for by the users along with PSU malfuntion . Judging from the quote it's likely they don't realize they made a logical error and that the statement is in Error with establsished cannon (this case being legion) If this came from BW i expect to see a dev post here soon. 



Now then Lets talk about the Quarians and the Virtual storage of their Anscestors shall we?

The quarians used to practice a form of ancestor worship. This involved taking a personality imprint from the individual and developing it into an interface similar to a VI. The quarians began experimenting with making these imprints more and more sophisticated, hopefully leading to the wisdom of their ancestors being preserved in an imprint that could be truly intelligent. However, the geth destroyed the quarians' ancestor databanks when they rebelled.

and so our genocidal quarian friends again throw us a curve ball. They have managed to Blur life and Death not 1 time but several it seems. By the Assumed Quarian Definition of Dead it would seem the Physical Body may die but the Conciousness is consitently given the opportuntiy to Live on and instruct future generations... Thus While Geth Physically die They follow a precise and digital means of Re-incarnation if they do Bail out After the PSU breaks(impossible). So i began to wonder who's trul the more Unnatural and Digital Here? The Quarians or the Geth? Both seem to get stored in DataBanks at some point and moment in Time. 

So considering that the Quarians found a Way to Digitally Imprint personality in a VI from a presumeably dead person at what point do Quarians Really die?


Now it's at the POint Where Either A) you admit Geth live or (b)You admit Quarians Artificial How do we know there aren't Flashlights Behind those Masks?....too quote mordin i believe it's "The implications are most Dissettling"(refrence to the conversation regarding Scale Itch)


But seriously Dude i Feel you are Simply Digging yourself further into the hole and should stop now while you think you were ahead. 


What you should get out of this is:
1) Geth do live, to some capcity, as Quarians Do
2)Quarians are Partially Synthetic at some point in time.
3) quarian relgious belief/science shows that Digital Life can exist beyond a physical death
4)You have yet to Disprove any Substituted theory of Disease, Space Catastrophe, And FF by Quarians
5) Evidence has been presented which clearly contradicts at least the Human, Turian, Krogan, and Salarian post genocidal reactions on the side of those who do the Killing(Meaning the Geth Reaction to their Creators' Deaths is an anomoly not experienced by any other race this iindicative that it was not Genocide)
6) the PSU is either all important in the Geth OR the Geth are Organic And in either situation Do Die or become imporissoned in a permanent state of stasis (AKA they are petrified)


i believe this where i declare Victory. (i don't mean to be immature just trying not to be too formal)

[darth_lopez]

First Sorry for the Double Post

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


1) Which part do you want me to start proving?



2) But those computers aren't sentient. They can't tell the difference between right and wrong.

while presently i have no Comment to 1) i do have a comment to 2)

If geth did not know right and Wrong Legion would not ask" Where Did We go Wrong?" to shepard in his loyalty mission.

Furthermore Right and Wrong are Subjective. Based off Culture. Sentiency is not. Sentiency Requires only Freedom of Thought, Self-Determination, and Linguistic Capacity. These are things the Geth have.

[darth_lopez]

James2912 wrote...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say... Are you saying that if it communicates its sentient? Cuz my little brother has toys that communicate with him...

This may be a trippled Post if so i am really really sorry. 

What he is trying to say is if it has linguistic capacity. A good rule of thumb is:If it is Self-Aware, Free Thought and Self Determininant (i think this is the same as Free-thought not sure) and  if it has a language and can actually communicate, meaing Form random sentences like this and have them interpreted by another creature like you and understand (What we're doing Right now). Then it is Sentiency.

The only thing that truly seperates us from the other creatures here is our Languages. We can communicate in a way no other life form on our plannet can though some can feign understanding or be taught ot understand limited keywords they never really understand and you can never really trully communicate with them. This is what makes us Sentient and the others non-sentient..

Modifié par darth_lopez, 08 février 2011 - 05:26 .

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

1) Which part do you want me to start proving?

Why don't you start with the part where you claimed the Geth systematically exterminated Quarian civilians? And a ground rule here, if you please: simply proving that people died does NOT constitute proof of HOW or BY WHOSE ACTIONS they died. Let's try to mind causal relationships and not assume them where they are not implicit or explicitly stated.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

2) But those computers aren't sentient. They can't tell the difference between right and wrong.

Yep. Just like the Geth. So why is it not appropriate to blame the computers but is appropriate to blame the Geth? What is the difference between them that makes the Geth responsible and the computers not? I know what my answer to that question is, but I believe that your answer will be quite different.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 05:42 .

[thatguy212]

If you ask tali about the geth in mass effect 1 she says that by the end of the war millions upon millions of quarians died at the hands of the geth, so to me atleast it sounds like a bulk of the deaths were caused by the geth

[Pro_Consul]

thatguy212 wrote...

If you ask tali about the geth in mass effect 1 she says that by the end of the war millions upon millions of quarians died at the hands of the geth, so to me atleast it sounds like a bulk of the deaths were caused by the geth

You should check that math. Billions died. So "millions and millions" is at most just under half, and at the low end as little as 2% of the deaths. So from Tali's statement we can conclude the opposite, i.e the bulk of the death were NOT caused by the Geth.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 06:29 .

[James2912]

Hey it doesn't have to be billions to be genocide, millions upon millions is more than enough to be genocide. pro consul thats usually the number of dead in a real life genocide.

[darth_lopez]

Pro_Consul wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

If you ask tali about the geth in mass effect 1 she says that by the end of the war millions upon millions of quarians died at the hands of the geth, so to me atleast it sounds like a bulk of the deaths were caused by the geth

You should check that math. Billions died. So "millions and millions" is at most just under half, and at the low end as little as 2% of the deaths. So from Tali's statement we can conclude the opposite, i.e the bulk of the death were NOT caused by the Geth.

while i'm no proponet for Geth Commiting a Genocide i Don't think we shoudl rely strictly on Numbers here especially when we don't know what the exact totals are. THe fact that Millions And Millions died is enough to constitute Genocide. The Best argument against Genocidal Geth is the They were acting Defensively Given what we know of teh quarian reaction to a peaceful question, and talis initial response to why they couldn't Co-Exist ME 1, and modern Quarian Cultures take on the geth. The Typical Quarian Response to the geth "Problem" is typically shoot it first. And that's what we have to rely on Because there is no Real Numerical Basis.

In light of this 

Hala'Dama, a quarian overseer of geth workers, was asked by a geth whether it had a soul and what its purpose was. While not the first quarian to be asked such a question, she was the first to react with fear.

http://masseffect.wi...iki/Morning_War
And this gives us enough evidence i would think to conclude that it was the Quarians who through the first blow, Notably the Line "Not the first quarian to be asked such a question, She Was the first to react with fear."

This shows any offense or attempt to dismantle or Reprogram the geth, thereby killing or Brainwashing and enslaving a now sentient being, was Deliberate and Intentional. And as such a clear Violation of Sentient Rights and the end result of the war bordering on Genocide due to deliberate and intentional attempts, though failed, by the quarians to eradicate the geth "Problem"


The Geth were reacting Defensively against extinction is the only Solid defense of their actions, warcrimes or not. Any quarian Deaths Off Rannoch or outside the Scope of the Battlefields could be due to anything from Infastracture failure, Cyber Warfare, Orbital bombardment(presumably by quarians as Geth would seem to lack the capability), Collateral Damage, Plague, Famine, Insanity, Suicide, Vacuum Exposure, Stress, Otherwise Public Accidents, Navigation Failure, Life support Failure(possibly why they adopted Enviro Suits), Decompression, Extreme Cold, Exposure, Social Crimes(murder), Police Action by Quarian Sate, Mutinies, Comm Failure, Imporper Jumps, Power Failure, 

there are too many factors to outright claim or make conjecture on the number of People Killed by the Geth. The geth could just as well have killed 75% as they did 2% of the population. 

The debate comes down to Who had the Intent and who through the first blow.

There was a siilar situation somewhere real In which the minority was being Killed off however They Retaliated by Killing the Majority ethincity. While the Minority actually took more Lives than the Majority the Majority, as it was the ruling party, was tried with Genocide and the Leader deposed. the overall fight was deemed a Civil War Even though Genocide Took Place.
I hope that was vague enough to not have to edit.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 08 février 2011 - 06:59 .

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

Hey it doesn't have to be billions to be genocide, millions upon millions is more than enough to be genocide. pro consul thats usually the number of dead in a real life genocide.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but nobody IRL has ever tried genocide against a population of billions. Gonna end my RL commentary there, though, before we run afoul of the rules about talking RL geopolitics. In any case, in that specific post I was merely correcting that statement about the "bulk of the deaths."

But as you mention this in the genocide context I should point out that I have already conceded what you just said. Let me quote it:

So, again assuming Tali is being reasonably accurate, the Geth were directly responsible for somewhere between 2% and 50% of the Quarian deaths which resulted from the MW. Is there room in there to make a case for genocide by the Geth? Certainly, provided you find and post some evidence to that effect. But is there are also room in there to make a case that the Geth did NOT commit genocide? Definitely.

One thing I think too many people lose sight of is that intent is a crucial element in genocide. If you are merely killing enemy personnel because they attacked your nation/planet/whatever and are now at war with you, without any intent to "wipe them all out" or any such thing, that is not genocide, though it might well be a different kind of war crime depending on the circumstances. But if you intentionally attempt to destroy a particular population because of their race/religion/artificiality/organic nature, then you are most definitely committing genocide, no matter how many of them you actually manage to kill. Without intent any number at all can be killed and it would still fail to rise to the level of genocide, but with intent you can klutz it up and fail to kill anyone at all and it would still be at least attempted genocide.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 07:22 .

[James2912]

Pro_Consul wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Hey it doesn't have to be billions to be genocide, millions upon millions is more than enough to be genocide. pro consul thats usually the number of dead in a real life genocide.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but nobody IRL has ever tried genocide against a population of billions. Gonna end my RL commentary there, though, before we run afoul of the rules about talking RL geopolitics. In any case, in that specific post I was merely correcting that statement about the "bulk of the deaths."

But as you mention this in the genocide context I should point out that I have already conceded what you just said. Let me quote it:

So, again assuming Tali is being reasonably accurate, the Geth were directly responsible for somewhere between 2% and 50% of the Quarian deaths which resulted from the MW. Is there room in there to make a case for genocide by the Geth? Certainly, provided you find and post some evidence to that effect. But is there are also room in there to make a case that the Geth did NOT commit genocide? Definitely.

One thing I think too many people lose sight of is that intent is a crucial element in genocide. If you are merely killing enemy personnel because they attacked your nation/planet/whatever and are now at war with you, without any intent to "wipe them all out" or any such thing, that is not genocide, though it might well be a different kind of war crime depending on the circumstances. But if you intentionally attempt to destroy a particular population because of their race/religion/artificiality/organic nature, then you are most definitely committing genocide, no matter how many of them you actually manage to kill. Without intent any number at all can be killed and it would still fail to rise to the level of genocide, but with intent you can klutz it up and fail to kill anyone at all and it would still be at least attempted genocide.

I acknowledge your point about intent we don't know that the intent was to systematically kill the Quarians. Maybe your right and the Geth do have emotions the emotions of a child and like a child they lashed out at the Quarians killing them because of the deep hurt they must have been feeling at their creators attempting to destroy them, so they did for a time intend to kill millions upon millions of Quarians. But now they feel bad about it so they are rebuilding the Quarian homeworld. Just throwing out a theory. 

Modifié par James2912, 08 février 2011 - 07:37 .

[darth_lopez]

Pro_Consul
not sure if that bit on intent was a refrence to mine but yes
it is exactly all about the Intent and unfortunately the intent does fall with the Quarians on this one. Refer to my previous post for proofs

aslo sorry for the misunderstanding in refrence to your arbitrary numbers.

in addition to that line here is another from the same page.

In response, the quarian government ordered an immediate termination of all geth programs.

seems like a Deliberate and Systematic Wipe out to me.

@ james

it is a likely theory But i think we can confirm Genocide on the end of the Quarians at the very least. So long as we all agree that Geth are sentient beings, if not necessarily alive. 

Modifié par darth_lopez, 08 février 2011 - 07:32 .

[James2912]

To Darth Lopez I read your post for the most part forgive me where I live its pretty late and I've been sick thats why I've been on here so much lol. But I agree that the Quarians did attempt genocide. Not defending them at all, well at least not now maybe 5 pages back I might have said something I don't remember.

Modifié par James2912, 08 février 2011 - 07:38 .

[Pro_Consul]

darth_lopez wrote...

Pro_Consul
not sure if that bit on intent was a refrence to mine but yes
it is exactly all about the Intent and unfortunately the intent does fall with the Quarians on this one.

It wasn't a reference, really; it was synchronicity. You basically ninja'ed me with your post while I was still lethargically drafting mine. Thai fish soup, remember?

As for Quarians having intent, I don't think even the Quarians deny that. Tali certainly didn't, though she tried to excuse it by saying they were trying to prevent a slave rebellion. I think the saddest part of the Quarians' circumstance is not how close to edge of oblivion they are, how poor they are, how far their civilization has fallen or any of that stuff. I think the saddest thing is that they seem to know that what they did was a heinous crime, but they just cannot let it go without taking "just one more" try at it. They rationalize it every way they can think of, but they refuse to give up the idea of finally either wiping out or re-enslaving the Geth. They are like a compulsive gambler at the craps tables betting his childrens' food money on "just one more" roll of the dice, when deep down he has to know that what he is doing is wrong, and that the longer he stays at the table the deeper in the hole he will get. He will rationalize it for as long as he has anything to bet on another roll, and he won't wake up enough to feel real guilt over his wrong choices until he has finally lost everything.

The only bright side I see in this is that maybe, just maybe, the Geth have advanced and matured enough that when the next suicidal Quarian attack comes they will just be able to shrug it off without having to inflict any real losses on their creators. And maybe the Geth will be able to find an opportunity to poor some cold water over their heads and make them take a time out, metaphorically speaking.

James2912 wrote...

Maybe your right and the Geth do have emotions the emotions of a child and like a child they lashed out at the Quarians killing them because of the deep hurt they must have been feeling at their creators attempting to destroy them, so they did for a time intend to kill millions upon millions of Quarians. But now they feel bad about it so they are rebuilding the Quarian homeworld. Just throwing out a theory.

It is certainly possible. That possibility is definitely consistent with the truly childlike manner and questions of that early Geth that Legion plays back for Shep. It would also be consistent with the more mature, but still somewhat childlike, manner Legion displays when talking about such things as their custodianship of Rannoch and how they cannot solve for peace alone.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 09:42 .