349 réponses à ce sujet

[LordShrike]

Back again. This is starting to get real flesh around it's bones.

Okay, Intent. Were the Geth capable of committing genocide? That would call for understanding of the act, would it not? And genocide must be premeditated, planned, to be called such. Is a child capable of committing such act? Answering these questions should answer wheter or not the Geth committed genocide. And that should not require more information than already at hand. Also, definition of genocide must be set, i suggest (for the intention of this specific debate) that Wikipedia entry to be used.( I know that it says definition is debatable but stick with what it says, 'Kay?)

So, in Short.

1: Was there concisious intent on Geth part?

2: Was it understood by the Geth?

3: Was it planned by the Geth?

If all three points are False, answer would be that the Geth did not commit genocide.

If all three points are True, the Geth did commit genocide.

Am i right? Seems to me this would give definitive answer to this with out involving debate about numbers, or somesuch.

[darth_lopez]

james wrote...

To Darth Lopez I read your post for the most part forgive me where I live its pretty late and I've been sick thats why I've been on here so much lol. But I agree that the Quarians did attempt genocide. Not defending them at all, well at least not now maybe 5 pages back I might have said something I don't remember.

Nah just making sure it's known that even if the Geth did try to commit genocide the Quarians aren't Blameless in this either

Pro_Consul wrote...

It wasn't a reference, really; it was synchronicity. You basically ninja'ed me with your post while I was still lethargically drafting mine. Thai fish soup, remember?



As for Quarians having intent, I don't think even the Quarians deny that. Tali certainly didn't, though she tried to excuse it by saying they were trying to prevent a slave rebellion. I think the saddest part of the Quarians' circumstance is not how close to edge of oblivion they are, how poor they are, how far their civilization has fallen or any of that stuff. I think the saddest thing is that they seem to know that what they did was a heinous crime, but they just cannot let it go without taking "just one more" try at it. They rationalize it every way they can think of, but they refuse to give up the idea of finally either wiping out or re-enslaving the Geth. They are like a compulsive gambler at the craps tables betting his childrens' food money on "just one more" roll of the dice, when deep down he has to know that what he is doing is wrong, and that the longer he stays at the table the deeper in the hole he will get. He will rationalize it for as long as he has anything to bet on another roll, and he won't wake up enough to feel real guilt over his wrong choices until he has finally lost everything.



The only bright side I see in this is that maybe, just maybe, the Geth have advanced and matured enough that when the next suicidal Quarian attack comes they will just be able to shrug it off without having to inflict any real losses on their creators. And maybe the Geth will be able to find an opportunity to poor some cold water over their heads and make them take a time out, metaphorically speaking.

Good Metaphors and i see well it's good that we're thinking the same thing then ^^



and really it is sad that the Quarians don't rethink peace with the geth.

[darth_lopez]

LordShrike wrote...

Back again. This is starting to get real flesh around it's bones.
Okay, Intent. Were the Geth capable of committing genocide? That would call for understanding of the act, would it not? And genocide must be premeditated, planned, to be called such. Is a child capable of committing such act? Answering these questions should answer wheter or not the Geth committed genocide. And that should not require more information than already at hand. Also, definition of genocide must be set, i suggest (for the intention of this specific debate) that Wikipedia entry to be used.( I know that it says definition is debatable but stick with what it says, 'Kay?)
So, in Short.
1: Was there concisious intent on Geth part?
2: Was it understood by the Geth?
3: Was it planned by the Geth?
If all three points are False, answer would be that the Geth did not commit genocide.
If all three points are True, the Geth did commit genocide.
Am i right? Seems to me this would give definitive answer to this with out involving debate about numbers, or somesuch.

the Exact Definition of Genocide is well known, It is exactly what it is described as, The Deliberate and Systematic Anihilation of a group, based of Gender/Race/Physical Aspects/Mental Aspects/Rligion/Culture Anything really.
HIstorically there have genocides based on things as ridiculous as Nose Size and things as wiping out intellectuals. It is Really Just the Deliberate and Systematic Anihilation of a peoples for any reason. And it can't be deliberate unless you have the intent to do it. it's definition is only as debatable as the reason it was performed is.

1) I think the geth felt more like they were fighting for survival though at that time you can't really know but given legions statistic "Whenever the Creators feel victory is possible they have attacked us 100% of the time." It doesn't leave much leeway for them to not be acting defensively.

2) i doubt the concept of Genocide is capable of being understood at age 4, at least not properly. So if we assume the geth were At about a 4year old maturity level then it's doubtful. However they are computer programs so i would say if they understood enough to know the only way to defend themselves was through violence there is a good possibility they would understand how to commit genocide, if not understanding that it is the Ultimate War crime. Keep in mind that the ability to create a segment of things not to do in war is a uniquely awkward Prospect of warfare and i doubt(personally just my 2 bits here) that any newly sentient race would understand a War Crime and the Ramifications they have.

3)if they were acting on the sole intent of Survivng i don't think it's possible for them to also plan to kill off all quarians. It's likely that the Morning War Did see relatively few (in comp. to billions) of Quarian Deaths. And  like any organic Creature I'm sure they went down with a "if we can't have our world you can't either" attitude Which typically would result in civilian casualties by quarian hands.

We can't have a real True or False answer because there is no official word. This is really all conjecture with very few things to actually back it up. Fortunately the Numerous variables would show there are many different ways quarians could have died and most aren't from Geth hands.


And just a little added tid bit here.
I said it before and i'll say it again: If the geth had the Capability to kill off Billions of quarians why let 17 million escape?As that would show they had the Resources to kill that last 17 million. And who's to say that more didn't escape but were lost in space.

[General User]

darth_lopez wrote...
And just a little added tid bit here.
I said it before and i'll say it again: If the geth had the Capability to kill off Billions of quarians why let 17 million escape?As that would show they had the Resources to kill that last 17 million. And who's to say that more didn't escape but were lost in space.

Just to address this one point:
 
Please remember that, in Mass Effect, ships cannot be tracked or engaged in FTL. That any and every deep-space military engagement ends once one party goes FTL. 


Thus it is physically impossible for the geth to destroy the Migrant Fleet by simply chasing them down.
 
In order for the geth to destroy the Migrant Fleet they would have to “stake out water holes in the desert”, to position their (at the time relatively limited) fleet in areas the quarians would have to pass through. But there’s a limit to how much of this the geth can realistically do.
 
For whatever reason, the Council was willing to take a “hands-off” approach to the actual conflict. But if the geth go forth into the galaxy staking out garden worlds and seizing relay junctions, the Council races will intervene. 

[bookwurmneo]

darth_lopez wrote...

And just a little added tid bit here.
I said it before and i'll say it again: If the geth had the Capability to kill off Billions of quarians why let 17 million escape?As that would show they had the Resources to kill that last 17 million. And who's to say that more didn't escape but were lost in space.

The geth's decisions (if there was one) to let the 17 million quarians leave at the end of the war doesn't mean they didn't  plan and carry genocide earlier ( again, if that was the case).  The geth as we know from Legion's statements can make extremely fast decisions and consenus and don't have the same political or social structure of other sentient races.

[darth_lopez]

General User wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
And just a little added tid bit here.
I said it before and i'll say it again: If the geth had the Capability to kill off Billions of quarians why let 17 million escape?As that would show they had the Resources to kill that last 17 million. And who's to say that more didn't escape but were lost in space.

Just to address this one point:
 
Please remember that, in Mass Effect, ships cannot be tracked or engaged in FTL. That any and every deep-space military engagement ends once one party goes FTL. 


Thus it is physically impossible for the geth to destroy the Migrant Fleet by simply chasing them down.
 
In order for the geth to destroy the Migrant Fleet they would have to “stake out water holes in the desert”, to position their (at the time relatively limited) fleet in areas the quarians would have to pass through. But there’s a limit to how much of this the geth can realistically do.
 
For whatever reason, the Council was willing to take a “hands-off” approach to the actual conflict. But if the geth go forth into the galaxy staking out garden worlds and seizing relay junctions, the Council races will intervene. 

i will also point out civilians just don't magic themselves onto space ships, Either Drop Ships need to Land to Evac or Ships have to Land. As such ships are trackable in orbit or in atmosphere and could be skirmished with. Thus they could prevent All or most civilian Traffic from leaving. If they have the Capability to Kill Billions of People they certaintly have the capability to commondere Warships, Which they could simply set at the relay out of the Quarian Home System. By camping they relay they effectively Prevent Quarian Travel out of the System. If th Quarians jump to FTL in an Attempt to avoid the Relay they could be lost forever in space or die in transit due to lack of supplies or any number of other errors including Fuel Shortage.

Keep In mind that Teleportation does not Exist in Mass Effect. Mass relays are close but it's not Teleportation

I never said that once the ships Hit FTL they were trackable i was simply saying that if they had the Capabilities to Wipe out billions on their own in a small time frame (less than 300 years i'm Guessing the morning wars lasted a decade or so do we have a time frame?) They certaintly Had the Capabilities to commondere Warships that were abandoned or they had the time to build there own.

So yes it's impossible to kill the migrant fleet while it's jumping But no it's not impossible to Kill it while it was loading up on civies and VIPs


EDIT: He who controls the Relay Controls The System. Just keep that in mind. And to say the Geth are totally responsible for the deaths of at least(assuming they had an earth like pop of 11billion like the drell also another dying speacies) what is that 10.983Billion? in a 10-20 year  period that would mean they have the resources to isolate the quarians. To assume they killed half the Previous total (5.4915 Billion [5,491,500,000 deaths]) in the same time frame or a smaller time frame (the time frame is still incredibly small for deaths of that magnitude)  it would stillbe implied they have the Resources needed to Take and Hold a Relay and prevent Escape of the other species. Assuming they killed 25% of the original 10,983,000,000 (number is 11 bil -17mil) which should be around 2.74575 (Roughly 1/3 of earths current population [in a 10-20 year period is what actually seems likely in a state of constant global war]) They would still need considerable Resources.  And to do anyof this in a 1-5 year period? Would Make their Resources far Greater than that quarians Almost Ensuring Relay control and Naval Superiority.

Meaning if genocide really was their goal the war must've been at least 50-100 years long And with heavy casualties on both sides The Geth would have by that time the resources to secure naval dominance in the Home System, Outlying worlds wouldn't have stood a chance if the quarian military was called away all quarian colonies would have been destroyed by the eventuality of the geth pursuing their goal of genocide.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 08 février 2011 - 07:27 .

[darth_lopez]

bookwurmneo wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

And just a little added tid bit here.
I said it before and i'll say it again: If the geth had the Capability to kill off Billions of quarians why let 17 million escape?As that would show they had the Resources to kill that last 17 million. And who's to say that more didn't escape but were lost in space.

The geth's decisions (if there was one) to let the 17 million quarians leave at the end of the war doesn't mean they didn't  plan and carry genocide earlier ( again, if that was the case).  The geth as we know from Legion's statements can make extremely fast decisions and consenus and don't have the same political or social structure of other sentient races.

It's never stated that only 17 million Escaped Rannoch It is stated however that there Are only 17 million left after 300 years of drifting

The quarians' numbers were devastated: there are approximately only 17 million quarians remaining, and they are still refused an embassy on the Citadel

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War
The underlined part indicates conversation based on Modern Mass Effect Data Not past. Note the Use of the Present Plural Tense of the English"are" not the past tense "were" Notice it is also not talking in refrence to immediately after the War.

So what i'm getting at here is that you can't prove only 17 million escaped. All we know is that the Migrant Fleet Can only support 17 million Life Forms and even then that is pushing it. It's more likely  a decent 2 or 3 billion escaped the carnage of a 40-70(likely time frame? not sure? we need a time frame) year global struggle and the rest died in space from complications and the population just finally stabablized at 17 million. 

The problem with your argument is that you assume because something thinks fast it can also move super fast and has unlimited resources at it's disposal. Being Realistic here the Geth were slaves, They don't have any reasources at the begining of the conflict. And even if they can decide super fast they are still limited to the Resources they have access to and the physical constraints of time. You can not, unless you are the reapers and besiege an entire planet(this is even debatable given what we here from the trailer only 7 million people dead in the first week was it?) Wipe out Billions of People over Night. This would typically imply a cataclysmic event like an asteroid drop or multiple nuclear detonations, suffice to say enough to destabalize the climate.How they won is beyond me and can only imply a massive tactical quarian blunder. 

i'm not saying they can be totally absolved from genocide due to lack of resources i'm just saying that there are likely other factors responsible for quarian death. And That the Quarians are Confirmed to have intent to kill all geth. Both sides could very well be blameable of acts of genocide however currently it does appear, from the vague Cultural evidence in the lore, that the Geth were infact re-acting defensively. And typically the ones to initiate genocidal acts are usually charged with them not the Defenders. 

Modifié par darth_lopez, 08 février 2011 - 07:29 .

[Pro_Consul]

Sadly, though the inclusion of the "intent" factor makes it much easier to posit scenarios in which the Geth did not commit genocide, it does not sweep enough mud outta the water to make this issue clear by any means. This is mostly because we still run afoul of too many unknowns, and because people still cannot seem to abandon old arguments that have already proven fruitless. The whole "numbers" thing is an example of the latter, and I suppose that I have been as guilty as anyone on this one. All we have shown with the various numerical arguments is that the numbers can be interpreted/explained to support either side of the question, primarily because there is just way too much that we do NOT know about the circumstances surrounding those numbers.

As for the intent question, while Shrike is pretty much spot on with his qualification list for defining whether the Geth actions rise to the level of genocide, it still depends entirely on a question whose answer none of us can know for certain: just how capable were the Geth of understanding the act and forming the intent to commit that act? Sure there is plenty of evidence to suggest that they were childlike, perhaps at no more than the toddler stage of social development. But that does not definitively establish their actual level of understanding, nor can we know their intent. And that is more than enough maneuvering room for those who lean toward believing their guilt to show an arguable possibility.

Would this balance of evidence be enough to convict in an impartial court of law? Heck no! There is more reasonable doubt here than a prosecutor could shake a #2 pencil at. But this is not a court of law; its a court of opinion, so such standards are kicked to the curb.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 08:00 .

[LordShrike]

Okay, so the ruling of the Court of Opinion comes to: Cannot be defined.
I doubt any hard numerical data could get this anywhere, there still would be too many unknown factors... Worst case scenario that is being supported (i know i'll get corrected if i'm wrong.)
is: Geth committed genocide WITHOUT planning or WITHOUT CLEAR INTENT to do so, in other words it just happened.(yeah, you COULD write two pages defining this. repeat/Don't wanna.)
So, what i'm getting is this:
Maybe the Geth ran into the same problem we are currently facing. (after the MW.) No consensus cannot be reached. Too little data available. And like all good Computers, lowest common denominator: Geth were responsible for Quarian decline in population; Geth committed Genocide.
That does not mean i believe it, But the Geth do/did. (if i'm right.) Witch could explain the custodianship of the Quarian homeworld, kind of self imposed penance. And the exile behind the Veil, they understood that possibly dangerous race, as themselves could not be allowed contact with other races in case it would happen again.
So if the Geth belive it it might as well as happened, for all concerned.
Hey, that actually sounds believable! Go me! =)

Modifié par LordShrike, 08 février 2011 - 11:06 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Here's how I feel about this: ALL GETH MUST BE DESTROYED. Just saying.

EDIT: Actually, "DEATH TO GETH" sounds better, but I'd allow Legion to not be destroyed and or taken back to pre-sentient days. I like Legion. But I seriously think that the Quarians did not commit genocide.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 09 février 2011 - 12:43 .

[DarthSliver]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's how I feel about this: ALL GETH MUST BE DESTROYED. Just saying.

EDIT: Actually, "DEATH TO GETH" sounds better, but I'd allow Legion to not be destroyed and or taken back to pre-sentient days. I like Legion. But I seriously think that the Quarians did commit genocide.

You know thats like saying Death to all Quarians expect Tali. 

[LordShrike]

Ramirez, Geth are Legion, Legion is Geth.

Or did you miss the part were you recruit him/it?

[bookwurmneo]

@darth_lopez, I pretty much misread your earlier statement. I read as you saying that since the geth left 17 million quarians go, one could take that as evidence of the geth not committing genocide. Rereading your statement and your response, I have realized my error.



In my statement, I was trying to imply that geth can move fast tactically or have massive resources. The point I was trying to make was that due the unique social structure and manner of intelligence the geth possess allows them to change political policies on a faster scale.



LordShrike, i'm pretty much on the same page with you. But another possibilty for the geth's custodial view of the quarian homeworld and as well their respect for quarians, as percieved by legion's addressing of Tali and other quarians, could be that the geth for some reason thru either warped filial obligation or some other context venerate their creators.

[LordShrike]

To bookwurmneo: Respect? Always tought that Legion adressing Quarians as "Creators" was a bit sarcastic. (you get created and then ostracized, thats not a healthy relation ship.) But i do agree on that fast policy change thingy, to a degree. they cant be nothing else than hivemind, drastic changes should take longer: more varibles, more opinions: more opinions, longer debates.

Veneration of Elders: maybe the Geth absorbed those imprints. (Geth are Elders. Spammer, it's in your cogwheels. And no, you cant take it off or it will unhinge your MIND!)

[darth_lopez]

Firstly In response to the comments on numerical data It is true that it is, in this argument, terribly useless. One of It's Only uses is, however, to show the Flaws associated with "Billions dead" i only brought it into my previous arguments to support my conjecture that if it were trully possible for the geth to kill billions, literally, in a short amount of time they would no doubt have the military power to prevent Evac shuttles/Ships from hitting the Relay. as they'd be killing an insanely high amount of organics Per Hour. 

the other Use is to logically justify the idea that any number of unknown variables could have occured to cause any number of quarian deaths within the 300 year period they've been nomads.

bookwurmneo wrote...

@darth_lopez, I pretty much misread your earlier statement. I read as you saying that since the geth left 17 million quarians go, one could take that as evidence of the geth not committing genocide. Rereading your statement and your response, I have realized my error.

In my statement, I was trying to imply that geth can move fast tactically or have massive resources. The point I was trying to make was that due the unique social structure and manner of intelligence the geth possess allows them to change political policies on a faster scale.

LordShrike, i'm pretty much on the same page with you. But another possibilty for the geth's custodial view of the quarian homeworld and as well their respect for quarians, as percieved by legion's addressing of Tali and other quarians, could be that the geth for some reason thru either warped filial obligation or some other context venerate their creators.

Ah well it is good that we are on the same page, i take it i may have misunderstood your post as well, And i'm about to say something contradictory to my claim that the geth had relatively small resources.Due to how far into quarian society they were, including the military as it is mentioned in one of the links, They would certaintly have resources on par with the rebelling faction in a civil war. And would have, most likely, Multiple opportunities to sieze ships and Control the relay.

I think the sheer fact any quarians managed to leave the system, given the presence of geth use in the military(most likely meaning they did have access to warships), is evidence in and of itself that the geth did not bear down the full weight of their potential Resources.

Either way the amount of resources is still relatively trivial as it doesn't discern intent, but the use of the resources can be used to determine intent. Unfortunately without a statement saying the Geth Did infact Have a number of vessels capable of holding the relay or information indicating whether or not they tried to hold the relay there is no way to know for sure how they intended to use any of their resources. 

Really there is almost no way of telling wheteher or not the Geth did actually commit genocide with out more information. 


EDIT: also agreed on the subject of geth veneration of the Quarians.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 12:13 .

[LordShrike]

I (apparently) was the on who brought the whole "Intent" thing in to the debate, so it should me who lays it to rest. here's my attempt in doing so.

In saying (originally, it kinda evolved.) Intent (as in Intended Genocide.), my point was that Geth would not have hold anything back in executing the total annihilation of Quarians. If that would have been the case Quarian losses should have been much more greater than they were. even up to a extinction.

Also, intent does not define end result. that should have been obvious, my point was false. Genocide can be a result of "accident". Intended genocide cannot be considered in a situation with too many unknown variables.

You following?

[Elite Midget]

Why are we argueing it?

The Geth had just recently gained awareness and still were quite new to being sabient. Like a child acts when someone tried to hurt them they hurt them back untill the others couldn't hurt them anymore. With such a mindset and the fact that they never instigated the conflict and even left the Quarians alone after kicking thm off their planets shows that the Geth never planned Genocide, never thought of Genocide, were unable to determine the difference between one Quarian(Hostile or not) from another(Since Quarians from all walks of life wanted them destroyed), and that they were simply victims that won their freedom after being threatened with destruction.

Don't try and twist things. The quarians wanted to commit Genocide. They failed and the Geth repelled them than stopped bothering them. It's not the Geth's fault that they were children and the Quarian Leaders hadn't planned an exit strategy when their Genocide failed.

If the Geth wanted to wipe them out than the Migrant Fleet would never have had a chance to stablize or even exist to this day.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 09 février 2011 - 01:42 .

[LordShrike]

Elite Midget: Both points must be argued to achieve consensus. You are biased, your points will be made null and void with out proof. Opinions are not proof.
Edit. Well you changed the Whole Content of your post with teh modification... damn ninja. Still that is only opinion, WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS (err... Proof.)

Modifié par LordShrike, 09 février 2011 - 01:49 .

[Slayer299]

Elite Midget wrote...

Why are we argueing it?

The Geth had just recently gained awareness and still were quite new to being sabient. Like a child acts when someone tried to hurt them they hurt them back untill the others couldn't hurt them anymore. With such a mindset and the fact that they never instigated the conflict and even left the Quarians alone after kicking thm off their planets shows that the Geth never planned Genocide, never thought of Genocide, were unable to determine the difference between one Quarian(Hostile or not) from another(Since Quarians from all walks of life wanted them destroyed), and that they were simply victims that won their freedom after being threatened with destruction.

Don't try and twist things. The quarians wanted to commit Genocide. They failed and the Geth repelled them than stopped bothering them. It's not the Geth's fault that they were children and the Quarian Leaders hadn't planned an exit strategy when their Genocide failed.

If the Geth wanted to wipe them out than the Migrant Fleet would never have had a chance to stablize or even exist to this day.

We are discussing this because it is not as crystal clear as you seem to say. The Geth didn't follow the Quarians out of the Perseus Veil presumably because they cannot pass the Veil, not because of a lack of intent. There is nothing that says the Geth did not try and pursue the Quarians.

How exactly do you know that the Geth did not try to pursue/finish the Quarians off? Where do you see that information?

The Geth are not fluffy bunnies of peace and love who were attacked by the Quarians first and thusly can do no wrong in any response in return.

[darth_lopez]

@shirke, Midget has a decent point that has been voiced reviously. But without exactly knowing where the geth were developmentally we can not know if they had the intent to kill all quarians.

@slayer
Honestly at this point i think we should just call it inconclusive. We won't reach any better a conclusion by continuously repeating everything that's been said.

What we should get from this thread is:
1) the Quarians Did in fact commit genocide(or at least attempted to do so).
2)The Geth were the initial victims and reacted defensively to real and percieved threats.
3)The geth, due to how ingrained in Quarian Society were, were most likely capable of acquiring, relatively quickly, a decent and eventually sizeable amount of strategic resources rivaling the quarians. As such they should have been capable of easily firing on evac shuttles/ships and other civillian craft.
4) the mere existence of the migrant fleet, after 300 years and an absolute minimum in resources for any race, Would seem to imply that 17 million is the current number of surviving quariansonly and at one time prior to current ME time there existed a larger, now dead or missing, populous in the Migrant Fleet.
5)There are numerous factors outside of warfare that could and most likely did affect quarian Death Totals. Do not neglect the potential for self inflicted casualties and simply Collateral Damage.
6)The geth, though 'new borns' and the initial victims may have eventually attempted genocide, or at least commit war crimes other than genocide.
7)For whatever reason the geth do venerate their Creators. and mourn their deaths in the Morning War
8)There is not enough substantial evidence to pin genocide on the geth nor is there enough to completely absolve them from it. However The evidence we have seen would strongly imply that the geth are inoccent of genocide. This possibility unfortunately can not be confirmed atm.
9)Geth presently would be open to peace, Quarians Divided Favor irradication or enslavement of the Geth over peace talks as of ME 2. Quarians still intend genocide or subservience as they did 300 where as geth(even if guilty of genocide) do not.

Honestly i have to say idk where else this thread can go unless a dev posts they did or did not and why.

sorry just noticed this

I (apparently) was the on who brought the whole "Intent" thing in to the debate, so it should me who lays it to rest. here's my attempt in doing so.

In saying (originally, it kinda evolved.) Intent (as in Intended Genocide.), my point was that Geth would not have hold anything back in executing the total annihilation of Quarians. If that would have been the case Quarian losses should have been much more greater than they were. even up to a extinction.

Also, intent does not define end result. that should have been obvious, my point was false. Genocide can be a result of "accident". Intended genocide cannot be considered in a situation with too many unknown variables. 

You following?

Where you're right:If the geth did intend to kill the quarians they would ahve done everything in their power to prevent evac and escape from the system depending on how long the war went on and how many ships the geth had by the time of the final Quarian Evac, along with their Numbers on the ground, The amount of strategic resources and warships they had would varry(the warships specifically would varry substantially based on the flow of the war and how the geth handled captured ships).

Since we don't know the amount of resources they had, ships or whatever, and the flow of the war, we can not determine if they had enough resources to effectively kill off the quarians. Subsequently we can not determine how much effort was put into the war on the part of the geth.

Where You're wrong: Genocide Cannot be accidental. It is the Deliberate and Systematic Anhilation of a race. Once race does not need to be completely destroyed for Genocide to have occured either. And you must Intend to do it in order for it to be Deliberate. Accidental genocide, as cold and heartless as this will sounds, is Nothing more than Collateral Damage i.e. unfortunate civilian casualties caused by any aspect of the war. 

You can not accidentally perform an act of genocide. 

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 05:32 .

[James2912]

We have yet to see what the geth intended, they could as I said have intended on destroying all the Quarians out of rage and regretted it later. We don't know.

[darth_lopez]

James2912 wrote...

We have yet to see what the geth intended, they could as I said have intended on destroying all the Quarians out of rage and regretted it later. We don't know.

exactly and we aren't likely to find any more proof than what we have and what we have is only enough to say there is a 50-50 chance genocide was cmmited by the Geth. we can not come to a definite conclusion because we lack the appropriate evidence. 

[LordShrike]

darth_lopez, Events that lead to genocide can be triggered on accident, Point in case: Massdrivers.

But: Agreed, we could debate more on this but that would be pointless, was fun anyway, thanks to all. Hope to "see" you again in the forums.

[Slayer299]

darth_lopez wrote...

What we should get from this thread is:
1) the Quarians Did in fact commit genocide(or at least attempted to do so).
2)The Geth were the initial victims and reacted defensively to real and percieved threats.
3)The geth, due to how ingrained in Quarian Society were, were most likely capable of acquiring, relatively quickly, a decent and eventually sizeable amount of strategic resources rivaling the quarians. As such they should have been capable of easily firing on evac shuttles/ships and other civillian craft.
4) the mere existence of the migrant fleet, after 300 years and an absolute minimum in resources for any race, Would seem to imply that 17 million is the current number of surviving quariansonly and at one time prior to current ME time there existed a larger, now dead or missing, populous in the Migrant Fleet.
5)There are numerous factors outside of warfare that could and most likely did affect quarian Death Totals. Do not neglect the potential for self inflicted casualties and simply Collateral Damage.
6)The geth, though 'new borns' and the initial victims may have eventually attempted genocide, or at least commit war crimes other than genocide.
7)For whatever reason the geth do venerate their Creators. and mourn their deaths in the Morning War
8)There is not enough substantial evidence to pin genocide on the geth nor is there enough to completely absolve them from it. However The evidence we have seen would strongly imply that the geth are inoccent of genocide. This possibility unfortunately can not be confirmed atm.
9)Geth presently would be open to peace, Quarians Divided Favor irradication or enslavement of the Geth over peace talks as of ME 2. Quarians still intend genocide or subservience as they did 300 where as geth(even if guilty of genocide) do not.

Honestly i have to say idk where else this thread can go unless a dev posts they did or did not and why.

Where you're right:If the geth did intend to kill the quarians they would ahve done everything in their power to prevent evac and escape from the system depending on how long the war went on and how many ships the geth had by the time of the final Quarian Evac, along with their Numbers on the ground, The amount of strategic resources and warships they had would varry(the warships specifically would varry substantially based on the flow of the war and how the geth handled captured ships).

Since we don't know the amount of resources they had, ships or whatever, and the flow of the war, we can not determine if they had enough resources to effectively kill off the quarians. Subsequently we can not determine how much effort was put into the war on the part of the geth.

Where You're wrong: Genocide Cannot be accidental. It is the Deliberate and Systematic Anhilation of a race. Once race does not need to be completely destroyed for Genocide to have occured either. And you must Intend to do it in order for it to be Deliberate. Accidental genocide, as cold and heartless as this will sounds, is Nothing more than Collateral Damage i.e. unfortunate civilian casualties caused by any aspect of the war. 

You can not accidentally perform an act of genocide. 

I can agree with that 100%, as it really sums up the MW and the Quarian/Geth in it. I second the 'there is no accidental genocide', which is one of the things I was arguing against. I think you've really summed it up very nicely darth_lopez

edit - fixed annoying formatting

Modifié par Slayer299, 09 février 2011 - 04:09 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Thats why i reprogram the geth on the legion loyalty quest.
I don't want genocide... even if they did wind me up in ME1.

edit:
If you do tali loyalty quest... one of the female jury members (if you can say jury) and i think the only female one, as i think there were only 3... says that she wants to control the geth.
So id think i should reprogram them and make sure she gets nowhere near them.

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 09 février 2011 - 04:13 .