349 réponses à ce sujet

[apotheosic]

OK, I'm going to have to disagree with the whole "no such thing as accidental genocide" thing. I think you're just arguing semantics on that point. It's true that you can't accidentally "murder" someone; legally, it's manslaughter, but the fact of the matter remains that a man is dead, and you caused it.

I also fail to see how you can say that the geth did not intend to kill the quarians. If they had not intended it, then were all the billions of deaths accidental? Did billions of quarians accidentally run into some bullets that the geth happened to be firing? No. Even if it was simply self-defense, they still intended to kill the quarians. I also maintain that there is no feasibly possible way that, at your conservative estimates, 70-80% of an entire species could be killed merely by self defense and collateral damage.

I do not say that the geth intended to eradicate the quarian species, however, does this make it accidental? Certainly not. The intent to kill was absolutely there. Specifically the intent to kill quarians, which would indeed make it a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group, a.k.a. genocide.

[Slayer299]

@apotheosic - Perhaps I'm dense this afternoon, but are you saying that you support the idea of "accidental genocide" or do not support that idea. Because you say;

OK, I'm going to have to disagree with the whole "no such thing as accidental genocide" thing. I think you're just arguing semantics on that point. It's true that you can't accidentally "murder" someone; legally, it's manslaughter, but the fact of the matter remains that a man is dead, and you caused it.



I also fail to see how you can say that the geth did not intend to kill the quarians. If they had not intended it, then were all the billions of deaths accidental? Did billions of quarians accidentally run into some bullets that the geth happened to be firing? No. Even if it was simply self-defense, they still intended to kill the quarians. I also maintain that there is no feasibly possible way that, at your conservative estimates, 70-80% of an entire species could be killed merely by self defense and collateral damage.

Because it seems you are arguing both.

[darth_lopez]

apotheosic wrote...

OK, I'm going to have to disagree with the whole "no such thing as accidental genocide" thing. I think you're just arguing semantics on that point. It's true that you can't accidentally "murder" someone; legally, it's manslaughter, but the fact of the matter remains that a man is dead, and you caused it.

No i'm not arguing semantics there is a legitimate definition for Genocide. It is not up for debate. 

gen·o·cide–nounthe deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group.

-taken from dictionary.com

In order to Be Deliberate it must be intended, You need to Intend to wipe out a whole race for it to be genocide. Your attempt to justify accidental genocide Turns all wars into acts of genocide. Mostly because you do end up killing a large amount of people who are of opposite nationality. So this is not open for debate. Unless you intend to substitute the word Genocide for Warfare.

I also fail to see how you can say that the geth did not intend to kill the quarians. If they had not intended it, then were all the billions of deaths accidental? Did billions of quarians accidentally run into some bullets that the geth happened to be firing? No. Even if it was simply self-defense, they still intended to kill the quarians. I also maintain that there is no feasibly possible way that, at your conservative estimates, 70-80% of an entire species could be killed merely by self defense and collateral damage.

ZOMG, what evidence Is there that they killed all (or rather are resoponsible for all of the casualties)of the quarians? What evidence do you have that says Accidents (in Space, Self inflected casualties, Deaths from Disease(given the poor poor immune systems of the quarians which were pretty weak even on their homeworld), Collateral Damage, Suicide, Mental illness, MIA cases, and even natural disasters do you, and of course they general death from old age.) di not occur? What Enlightens you to make the Claim that the Geth are soley responsible for all Quarian Deaths?  Give proof that the factors we have no knowledge about(i.e. all likely accidents and other causes of death)can be excluded and they'll be excluded but There are plenty of opportunities for all these things to occur. 

I do not say that the geth intended to eradicate the quarian species, however, does this make it accidental? Certainly not. The intent to kill was absolutely there. Specifically the intent to kill quarians, which would indeed make it a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group, a.k.a. genocide.

Indeed you do. You can not have an accidental genocide. Again if you intend to persist in claims of accidentally committed genocide you must include all wars as a form of genocide. Because in a war the intent to simply fight the war is there and as a consequence the intent to kill people from the opposing national faction is there.  Thus by the logic of an accidental genocide A genocide has occured in all Wars.

LordShrike wrote...

darth_lopez, Events that lead to genocide can be triggered on accident, Point in case: Massdrivers.

Mass Drivers are a tool for Warfare and genocide is not measured off of body count, entirely, One could easily say with the same logic that the certain Bomb Drop in a certain global war on a certain country in a certain reality was a form of genocide because they killed High amounts of various people and lead to various disease in a non-specific area around their Blast radius. Even though its use was not intended as such.

(sorry for the vague-ness tshould be obvious what i was trying to get at but no real world things were mentioned)

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[James2912]

Genocide is a very subjective word, sure there are some criteria but thats why I think this thread has done so well (13 pages and counting).

[apotheosic]

darth_lopez wrote...

ZOMG, what evidence Is there that they killed all (or rather are resoponsible for all of the casualties)of the quarians? What evidence do you have that says Accidents (in Space, Self inflected casualties, Deaths from Disease(given the poor poor immune systems of the quarians which were pretty weak even on their homeworld), Collateral Damage, Suicide, Mental illness, MIA cases, and even natural disasters do you, and of course they general death from old age.) di not occur? What Enlightens you to make the Claim that the Geth are soley responsible for all Quarian Deaths?  Give proof that the factors we have no knowledge about can be excluded and they'll be excluded but There are plenty of opportunities for all these things to occur.

OK, I see my inaccuracies on the whole genocide thing (however just because it isn't genocide does not mean it isn't a completely horrofic thing anyway.).

However, this here is a bit hard to swallow. Let me propose a few scenarios to you, adn you tell me whcih seems the most feasible:

1: the geth kill the vast majority of the quarians, leaving no more than 1 or 2 billion to escape. These numbers dwindle via the various means you have proposed above. In this scenario, the geth have killed about 90% of the quarian population, and a huge percentage of the remainder dies in transit.

2: the geth kill a great deal of quarians, but allow 5-7 billion to escape. Again, these numbers are decimated by disease and accidents. Here the geth have killed about half the population, and half the population dies of other causes.

3: the geth kill very few quarians before the quarians get the picture, turn tail, and get the hell out of there. Then 90% of the entire quarian population just dies off.

Obviously I am of the opinion that option 3 is totally ludicrous. We're talking billions (BILLIONS) of quarians dying on the safety of their undamaged ships. I'm not saying no significant number of quarians has died since the morning war, but BILLIONS in population decline is simply an absurd figure. Furthermore, had the great majority of quarians died outside the war, I am quite positive it would have been at least briefly mentioned somewhere in the extensive lore of the series.

Option 2 I also feel is pushing it. While slightly more feasible, it is still calling for the loss of billions. This isn't just a gradual loss either, because the quarians would still be free to reproduce at this point. True, they might have restrictions on it, like the modern quarians, but it would still take some absolutely catastrophic event to completely cut a population like that. This applies even more to option 1, above. And even if a population were dying off at a gradual rate, while still reproducing, it would take much longer than 300 years to lose the over 90% that the quarians have lost.

Only option 1 allows for massive population loss without major catastrophe after the morning war.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

darth_lopez wrote...

*snip*

ZOMG, what evidence Is there that they killed all (or rather are resoponsible for all of the casualties)of the quarians? What evidence do you have that says Accidents (in Space, Self inflected casualties, Deaths from Disease(given the poor poor immune systems of the quarians which were pretty weak even on their homeworld), Collateral Damage, Suicide, Mental illness, MIA cases, and even natural disasters do you, and of course they general death from old age.) di not occur? What Enlightens you to make the Claim that the Geth are soley responsible for all Quarian Deaths?  Give proof that the factors we have no knowledge about(i.e. all likely accidents and other causes of death)can be excluded and they'll be excluded but There are plenty of opportunities for all these things to occur. 

*snip*

1) Where's evidence that it did occur?

2) I don't think anyone is saying that the Geth were responsible for 100% of the deaths during the MW. But the DID kill a lot, and that would STILL count as genocide.

3) It could have been deliberate (maybe not in the beginning, possibly while the Quarians were retreating), the Geth DID attack Quarian colonies during the MW (and killing most there).

[darth_lopez]

It is not a subjective word. Any way you cut it Genocide is still the Deliberate(intended) and Systematic Wipe out of a group due to Culture, Nationality, Race, Gender, Religion etc...



As the only part of its definition that people seem to be getting hung up on is "Deliberate(intended)" i will draw an example. I can not Deliberately Kill my dog, With out First intending to Do it. I can however Defend myself from a Dog attack and inadvertantly Kill the Dog with out intending to Kill it.



Subsequently a Murderer Can not deliberately kill someone with out the intent to kill them. However someone being attacked by the murder may inadvertantly kill the murder in self defense with out intending to kill him/her.



So hopefully it's been established you can't Accidentally Deliberately Do something. It's contradictory.



There is no other way to cut it.



The real problem isn't that the word is subjective it's that we don't have enough Objective evidence to Confirm Genocide So now people are grasping at the, illogical and ipossible, idea of accidental Genocide(to spell that out in other words def of accidental genocide: The Accidental Deliberate and Systematic Wipe out of a group based on Gender, Race, Religion, Culture, Nationality etc..)

The other problem is that people seem to forget there are other contributing factors outside the battlefield to the cause of death on an entire planet over a long amount of time.

[darth_lopez]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

*snip*

ZOMG, what evidence Is there that they killed all (or rather are resoponsible for all of the casualties)of the quarians? What evidence do you have that says Accidents (in Space, Self inflected casualties, Deaths from Disease(given the poor poor immune systems of the quarians which were pretty weak even on their homeworld), Collateral Damage, Suicide, Mental illness, MIA cases, and even natural disasters do you, and of course they general death from old age.) di not occur? What Enlightens you to make the Claim that the Geth are soley responsible for all Quarian Deaths?  Give proof that the factors we have no knowledge about(i.e. all likely accidents and other causes of death)can be excluded and they'll be excluded but There are plenty of opportunities for all these things to occur. 

*snip*

1) Where's evidence that it did occur?

We know in masseffect these accidents occur: Lost star ship? Crashing star ship? The dangers of inaccurate relay jumps. Quarians do have a weak immune system. People commit suicide in Times of Social Distress(just as a refrene and it is necessary the stock market crash that started the Great Depression). Bombs and Mass drivers will have effects on things other than what is intended Thus Collateral Damage. It's a planet with Billions of people you don't think some went missing? Vitor is a Mentally Unstable Quarian thus some quarians can have mental illnesses, given that they are organic it should be obvious as all organic life can be driven crazy (rachni stressed out salarians, Indoctrinated organics, Tombs, Take your pick all forms of mental illness in Organic life). Organic Life is not permanent, Space is a harsh and dangerous environment for organic life, Fear based reaction scould lead to Self Inflicted casualties, Improper coordinates numerous possibilities Maybe someone calld artillery fire in too close and Killed 3 to 4 platoons of Quarian soldiers? Things like that can happen,  It's a planet...When do natural disasters not occur?

I belive i've given valid and substantial reasoning for those examples of outside factors.

2) I don't think anyone is saying that the Geth were responsible for 100% of the deaths during the MW. But the DID kill a lot, and that would STILL count as genocide.

The wording

. If they had not intended it, then were all the billions of deaths accidental? Did billions of quarians accidentally run into some bullets that the geth happened to be firing? 

and the fact this is a repeated statement
implies that there is a common beleif geth are responsible for as close to 100% of quarian deaths during the time frame as possible. 

and no. Killing alot is not enough to Credit to genocide... do you nto pay attention? Killing alot is indicative of massive wars not genocide Look at human history and see how many accusations of genocide there actually are As they are relatively small in comparrison to the # of deaths casued by any 1 country. I could give a really apt example using WW 2 and Another Country that took 31 million? loses i think  but they weren't the victims of genocide even though they had more than 6 million civillian deaths. 

Edit: the country i was refrerring to actually took 15 mil in Civvie death and 26mil total

3) It could have been deliberate (maybe not in the beginning, possibly while the Quarians were retreating), the Geth DID attack Quarian colonies during the MW (and killing most there).

It could have i'm not ruling that out. I'm just defendning that there is not enough evidence to confirm genocide. It doesn't make them wholey innocent but it doesn't make them wholey guilty. There is simply not enough solid evidence to confirm their actions were genocidal. 

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 08:16 .

[darth_lopez]

First sorry for tripple post

apotheosic wrote...



OK, I see my inaccuracies on the whole genocide thing (however just because it isn't genocide does not mean it isn't a completely horrofic thing anyway.).

However, this here is a bit hard to swallow. Let me propose a few scenarios to you, adn you tell me whcih seems the most feasible:

1: the geth kill the vast majority of the quarians, leaving no more than 1 or 2 billion to escape. These numbers dwindle via the various means you have proposed above. In this scenario, the geth have killed about 90% of the quarian population, and a huge percentage of the remainder dies in transit.

2: the geth kill a great deal of quarians, but allow 5-7 billion to escape. Again, these numbers are decimated by disease and accidents. Here the geth have killed about half the population, and half the population dies of other causes.

3: the geth kill very few quarians before the quarians get the picture, turn tail, and get the hell out of there. Then 90% of the entire quarian population just dies off.

Obviously I am of the opinion that option 3 is totally ludicrous. We're talking billions (BILLIONS) of quarians dying on the safety of their undamaged ships. I'm not saying no significant number of quarians has died since the morning war, but BILLIONS in population decline is simply an absurd figure. Furthermore, had the great majority of quarians died outside the war, I am quite positive it would have been at least briefly mentioned somewhere in the extensive lore of the series.

Option 2 I also feel is pushing it. While slightly more feasible, it is still calling for the loss of billions. This isn't just a gradual loss either, because the quarians would still be free to reproduce at this point. True, they might have restrictions on it, like the modern quarians, but it would still take some absolutely catastrophic event to completely cut a population like that. This applies even more to option 1, above. And even if a population were dying off at a gradual rate, while still reproducing, it would take much longer than 300 years to lose the over 90% that the quarians have lost.

Only option 1 allows for massive population loss without major catastrophe after the morning war.

All of your options neglect a time frame. The war was Long. And you can not expect the geth to simply kill that many things with limited resources in that small amount of time. When it takes Centuries for reapers to purge the galaxy.

The war likely went on for a good Hundred years or so with things like Nukes and orbital Bombardments being Frequent Occurences.  This Would likely lead to alot of collateral damage and civilian death. like it or not that's how the cookie crumbles. So I'd be more inclined to believe Option 1 if we're going under the assumption the war last from 70-120 years  before the quarians decided to turn tail and leave. And even then that doesn't Leave the Geth Soley responsible for the deaths on the Ground. Your Neglecting to factor in things like Blast Radius, Collateral damage, Disease from UNsanitary living, Deaths from Old Age, Exposure from Homelessness, Starvation, And NAtural Disasters. They Aren't Fighting in a Sand Box where nothing but Bullets will kill things. They are fighting on an Entire Planet Engaged in a Global and Catastrophic war that likely killed the ecosystem of Rannoch along with it's climate. And they were'nt recieving aid of supplies from the citadel.

i'd say it's still option (4)is more likely that they killed about 50% of the quarian population with 25-30% dying on world due to other problems leaving 25-20% to  escape into space where the majority ended up dying do to Factors of sustainability, riots and mutinies, and other mostly Technical Issues Over the course of the next 300 years.

[apotheosic]

All of your options neglect a time frame. The war was Long. And you
can not expect the geth to simply kill that many things with limited
resources in that small amount of time. When it takes Centuries for
reapers to purge the galaxy.

The war likely went on for a good
Hundred years or so with things like Nukes and orbital Bombardments
being Frequent Occurences.  This Would likely lead to alot of collateral
damage and civilian death. like it or not that's how the cookie
crumbles. So I'd be more inclined to believe Option 1 if we're going
under the assumption the war last from 70-120 years  before the quarians
decided to turn tail and leave. And even then that doesn't Leave the
Geth Soley responsible for the deaths on the Ground. Your Neglecting to
factor in things like Blast Radius, Collateral damage, Disease from
UNsanitary living, Deaths from Old Age, Exposure from Homelessness,
Starvation, And NAtural Disasters. They Aren't Fighting in a Sand Box
where nothing but Bullets will kill things. They are fighting on an
Entire Planet Engaged in a Global and Catastrophic war that likely
killed the ecosystem of Rannoch along with it's climate. And they
were'nt recieving aid of supplies from the citadel.

i'd say it's
still option (4)is more likely that they killed about 50% of the
quarian population with 25-30% dying on world due to other problems
leaving 25-20% to  escape into space where the majority ended up dying
do to Factors of sustainability, riots and mutinies, and other mostly
Technical Issues Over the course of the next 300 years.

You make good points. However, I find it very difficult to imagine even all those factors together contributing to the deaths of even 25-30% of an entire population.
I can see collateral damage and natural causes easily contributing to the death of millions. Easily. But billions? I really can't see that happening.

Modifié par apotheosic, 09 février 2011 - 08:23 .

[darth_lopez]

@apotheosic

It is not unreasonable at all the planet was in a state of total dissarray and global warfare you expect a civillian populous to survive in a state where they and their governement can't provide basic needs sufficiently to billions of people with out their slaves to gather and work for them? Add to that you expect plague due poor sanitation during any war not to break out and kill a substantial amount of people with a weak immune systems? The bubonic plague killed what percentage of europe?(30-60% is the answer) And in recent natural Disasters how many people died?



this is not a sandbox where only bullets kill things

[Homebound]

Geth do not intentionally commit genocide...I think.



It probably turned into an all-or-nothing war that ended with the quarians losing their planet.

[darth_lopez]

apotheosic wrote...


You make good points. However, I find it very difficult to imagine even all those factors together contributing to the deaths of even 25-30% of an entire population.
I can see collateral damage and natural causes easily contributing to the death of millions. Easily. But billions? I really can't see that happening.

if the population can't grow because soldiers and citizens are dying to fast from war and the other easy to immagine factors, such as plague and Exposure, and Collateral damage. It's easy to guess that most of the quariann youth went to figting the geth not Maintaining a population we see the same thing with the Krogan. Instead of Bread they choose to fight and because of that their Population is constantly in decline, though in this case some quarians actually live past the disease, natural disasters, exposure, and War to last long enough to die of natural casues. Natural Causes i see being incredibly small on the list of deaths. But Collateral Damage could Esily Hit billions. Nuclear Bombs, Orbital Bombardment. those are not pinpoint accurate weapons.

On a planet with billions and most  liekly sprawling city scapes with large population centers It's very very easy to see how the numbers can add up

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 08:36 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

*snip*

ZOMG, what evidence Is there that they killed all (or rather are resoponsible for all of the casualties)of the quarians? What evidence do you have that says Accidents (in Space, Self inflected casualties, Deaths from Disease(given the poor poor immune systems of the quarians which were pretty weak even on their homeworld), Collateral Damage, Suicide, Mental illness, MIA cases, and even natural disasters do you, and of course they general death from old age.) di not occur? What Enlightens you to make the Claim that the Geth are soley responsible for all Quarian Deaths?  Give proof that the factors we have no knowledge about(i.e. all likely accidents and other causes of death)can be excluded and they'll be excluded but There are plenty of opportunities for all these things to occur. 

*snip*

1) Where's evidence that it did occur?

We know in masseffect these accidents occur: Lost star ship? Crashing star ship? The dangers of inaccurate relay jumps. Quarians do have a weak immune system. People commit suicide in Times of Social Distress(just as a refrene and it is necessary the stock market crash that started the Great Depression). Bombs and Mass drivers will have effects on things other than what is intended Thus Collateral Damage. It's a planet with Billions of people you don't think some went missing? Vitor is a Mentally Unstable Quarian thus some quarians can have mental illnesses, given that they are organic it should be obvious as all organic life can be driven crazy (rachni stressed out salarians, Indoctrinated organics, Tombs, Take your pick all forms of mental illness in Organic life). Organic Life is not permanent, Space is a harsh and dangerous environment for organic life, Fear based reaction scould lead to Self Inflicted casualties, Improper coordinates numerous possibilities Maybe someone calld artillery fire in too close and Killed 3 to 4 platoons of Quarian soldiers? Things like that can happen,  It's a planet...When do natural disasters not occur?

I belive i've given valid and substantial reasoning for those examples of outside factors.

2) I don't think anyone is saying that the Geth were responsible for 100% of the deaths during the MW. But the DID kill a lot, and that would STILL count as genocide.

The wording

. If they had not intended it, then were all the billions of deaths accidental? Did billions of quarians accidentally run into some bullets that the geth happened to be firing? 

and the fact this is a repeated statement
implies that there is a common beleif geth are responsible for as close to 100% of quarian deaths during the time frame as possible. 

and no. Killing alot is not enough to Credit to genocide... do you nto pay attention? Killing alot is indicative of massive wars not genocide Look at human history and see how many accusations of genocide there actually are As they are relatively small in comparrison to the # of deaths casued by any 1 country. I could give a really apt example using WW 2 and Another Country that took 31 million? loses i think  but they weren't the victims of genocide even though they had more than 6 million civillian deaths. 

Edit: the country i was refrerring to actually took 15 mil in Civvie death and 26mil total

3) It could have been deliberate (maybe not in the beginning, possibly while the Quarians were retreating), the Geth DID attack Quarian colonies during the MW (and killing most there).

It could have i'm not ruling that out. I'm just defendning that there is not enough evidence to confirm genocide. It doesn't make them wholey innocent but it doesn't make them wholey guilty. There is simply not enough solid evidence to confirm their actions were genocidal. 

When the amount of people you killed surpasses the millions, that's WELL within genocide.There's a few cases of genocide in our history (that I would love to bring up but can't) that a lot of people died. Also, a couple of these cases of genocide had no wars going on.

[darth_lopez]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


When the amount of people you killed surpasses the millions, that's WELL within genocide.There's a few cases of genocide in our history (that I would love to bring up but can't) that a lot of people died. Also, a couple of these cases of genocide had no wars going on.

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be as large a number as the Total Death Count. It can be substantially less. In this case roughly 12 times smaller than the total killed by the war. 

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 08:41 .

[apotheosic]

While I still do not fully believe such was the case, you have convinced me it is at least possible.

I guess we'll see in ME3.

[darth_lopez]

@apotheosic

TY and i do guess we'll see in ME 3 we'll obviously have to do something between the Geth and Quarians. Other waise legion and Talis loyalty missions were totally pointless.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


When the amount of people you killed surpasses the millions, that's WELL within genocide.There's a few cases of genocide in our history (that I would love to bring up but can't) that a lot of people died. Also, a couple of these cases of genocide had no wars going on.

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be a large number

What?

You didn't disprove anything. I'm saying that it was well within genocide range, I'm not saying that it needed to be large numbers.

[darth_lopez]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


When the amount of people you killed surpasses the millions, that's WELL within genocide.There's a few cases of genocide in our history (that I would love to bring up but can't) that a lot of people died. Also, a couple of these cases of genocide had no wars going on.

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be a large number

What?

You didn't disprove anything. I'm saying that it was well within genocide range, I'm not saying that it needed to be large numbers.

Your original Statement was that Because so many Died it easily Qualified for genocide. You ammended your statment latter so that it was just if it's in the millions range.  it was genocide. I was proving genocide can be a relatively small number 12 times less died of genocide than the Actual War in 1938-1945.  if you'd like me to find even smaller count i can. 

infact i just PM'ed you a nice little article.
Where deaths related to genocide i believe were under 50k

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 08:46 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


When the amount of people you killed surpasses the millions, that's WELL within genocide.There's a few cases of genocide in our history (that I would love to bring up but can't) that a lot of people died. Also, a couple of these cases of genocide had no wars going on.

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be a large number

What?

You didn't disprove anything. I'm saying that it was well within genocide range, I'm not saying that it needed to be large numbers.

Your original Statement was that Because so many Died it easily Qualified for genocide. You ammended your statment latter so that it was just if it's in the millions range.  it was genocide. I was proving genocide can be a relatively small number 12 times less died of genocide than the Actual War in 1938-1945.  if you'd like me to find even smaller count i can. 

Saying that something was well within the range doesn't mean I'm saying that it can only be large numbers. I know of some cases of genocide that the numbers are smaller than that.

[darth_lopez]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


When the amount of people you killed surpasses the millions, that's WELL within genocide.There's a few cases of genocide in our history (that I would love to bring up but can't) that a lot of people died. Also, a couple of these cases of genocide had no wars going on.

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be a large number

What?

You didn't disprove anything. I'm saying that it was well within genocide range, I'm not saying that it needed to be large numbers.

Your original Statement was that Because so many Died it easily Qualified for genocide. You ammended your statment latter so that it was just if it's in the millions range.  it was genocide. I was proving genocide can be a relatively small number 12 times less died of genocide than the Actual War in 1938-1945.  if you'd like me to find even smaller count i can. 

Saying that something was well within the range doesn't mean I'm saying that it can only be large numbers. I know of some cases of genocide that the numbers are smaller than that.

substantially smaller. That should disprove your statement that in the "millions range is grounds for genocide" because really it isn't.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Once again, I'm not saying that the millions range is a requirement.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


When the amount of people you killed surpasses the millions, that's WELL within genocide.There's a few cases of genocide in our history (that I would love to bring up but can't) that a lot of people died. Also, a couple of these cases of genocide had no wars going on.

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be a large number

What?

You didn't disprove anything. I'm saying that it was well within genocide range, I'm not saying that it needed to be large numbers.

Actually he very much did disprove the argument you were making. By bringing up the numbers you trying to say that the fact of the number being so high was somehow an automatic qualification for genocide. He pointed out that the number can be a dozen times bigger and still NOT be genocide.

Besides, by your own definition stated multiple times in this thread, the Geth cannot have committed genocide because they non-sentient, non-living machinery. Genocide requires deliberate intent, and non-sentient, non-living machinery cannot intend anything; it can only do what it was built to do.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 09 février 2011 - 08:53 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

[quote]Pro_Consul wrote...

[quote]Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be a large number
[/quote]

What?

You didn't disprove anything. I'm saying that it was well within genocide range, I'm not saying that it needed to be large numbers.

[/quote]

Actually he very much did disprove the argument you were making. By bringing up the numbers you trying to say that the fact of the number being so high was somehow an automatic qualification for genocide. He pointed out that the number can be a dozen times bigger and still NOT be genocide. Besides, by your own definition stated multiple times in this thread, the Geth cannot have committed genocide because they non-sentient, non-living machinery. Genocide requires deliberate intent, and non-sentient, non-living machinery cannot intend anything; it can only do what it was built to do.

[/quote]

When millions and millions people (military and civillian) die at your hands, it's not genocide? The Geth are sentient (meaning they can decide between right and wrong), and they are responsible of genocide.

[darth_lopez]

[quote][quote]Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

[quote]Pro_Consul wrote...

[quote]Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

WW2 TOTAL DEAD:62,396,670
to 79,298,170
TOTAL DEAD BY GENOCIDE:5,753,100

You have been disproven Genocide Does not need to be a large number
[/quote]

What?

You didn't disprove anything. I'm saying that it was well within genocide range, I'm not saying that it needed to be large numbers.

[/quote]

Actually he very much did disprove the argument you were making. By bringing up the numbers you trying to say that the fact of the number being so high was somehow an automatic qualification for genocide. He pointed out that the number can be a dozen times bigger and still NOT be genocide. Besides, by your own definition stated multiple times in this thread, the Geth cannot have committed genocide because they non-sentient, non-living machinery. Genocide requires deliberate intent, and non-sentient, non-living machinery cannot intend anything; it can only do what it was built to do.

[/quote]

When millions and millions people (military and civillian) die at your hands, it's not genocide? The Geth are sentient (meaning they can decide between right and wrong), and they are responsible of genocide.

[/quote]
[/quote] you could always ask the allies
Total WW2 German Population:84,045,000
WW2 Loses by Germany:6,716,700
to 8,986,700

Nearly 1/10 of the population was killed

Did the allies commit genocide now? No they didn't. That happenede because of the Allied nations fighting a defensive war for survival. Just like the Geth

EDIT: this should FINALLY Prove that the Overall # of deaths is ultimately Irrelevant in determining Genocide.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 février 2011 - 09:00 .