349 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

Pro_Consul wrote...

General User wrote...

Whatever their motivations, following the Morning War, the geth either wiped out the quarian survivors not on the Flotilla, or allowed them to die when they could have prevented it. Either way constitutes genocide.

Those are not the only two possibilities. Option #3: the non-evacuating surviving Quarians died because they were left behind on a planet that they themselves had rendered uninhabitable with their relentless "attack, ATTACK, ATTACK!!!!" approach to warfare, and the Geth were powerless to do anything about that.

Its a possibility I'll give you that. I hope Bioware fills in the blanks.

[General User]

Pro_Consul wrote...

General User wrote...

Whatever their motivations, following the Morning War, the geth either wiped out the quarian survivors not on the Flotilla, or allowed them to die when they could have prevented it. Either way constitutes genocide.

Those are not the only two possibilities. Option #3: the non-evacuating surviving Quarians died because they were left behind on a planet that they themselves had rendered uninhabitable with their relentless "attack, ATTACK, ATTACK!!!!" approach to warfare, and the Geth were powerless to do anything about that.

How would the geth have been powerless to help any quarian survivors? 

[Pro_Consul]

bookwurmneo wrote...
snip...

Here we go again already. Not even half a day since the original thread was closed and we are already straying into real world geopolitics. Let's try to leave RL Earth out of it guys.....please?

wulf3n wrote...

With only 2 known quarian planets, and no information about the battles, and no information about the geths consciousness at the time, it's impossible to tell.

This is a huge point that keeps being overlooked. The only real information we have on how the war was fought is that the Quarians were relentlessly aggressive, launching attacks in 100% of the situations where they thought they had an advantage and 98% of the total offensives which took place.

Oh, we know one other thing: it left the Quarian homeworld so thoroughly trashed that is has taken centuries of Geth labor to make it habitable again, and we aren't even sure it is ready yet. I put these two facts together and come to two conclusions:

1. The scenario of Geth systematically exterminating Quarian babies and gaffers is rather contradicted by the known fact of the Quarians' have been the relentless aggressors while the Geth were the defenders in almost all their battles.

2. The fact of the Quarians' mindless aggression coupled with the fact that the planet was uninhabitable by the end of the war suggest that perhaps a great portion of Quarian civilian losses occurred as a result of their own military having shattered the planet they were living on.

Both points are circumstantial, of course, but that is how I read the likelihood based on the very little we do know. But another thing I do know is that we do NOT have sufficient evidence to prove any case of genocide against the Geth.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 09:52 .

[Pro_Consul]

General User wrote...

How would the geth have been powerless to help any quarian survivors? 

"Creator, you appear to be freezing to death due to nuclear winter. Please wait while I build you an orbital habitat."

....six months later....

"Creator, you appear to have ignored my request that you wait and chosen to freeze to death before the habitat was complete. Regrettable."


or how about.....

"Creator, you appear to be starving to death due to this planet's inability to sustain any type of agriculture. Please wait while I invent a means of synthesizing food for you and build a factory to perform the synthesis."


.....


You get the idea. What could the Geth do to sustain a population of Quarians who were trapped on a planet that had been rendered uninhabitable, particularly since their Quarian brothers and sisters had already scarpered with every single ship that had life support and was able to fly?

[James2912]

Pro_Consul wrote...

General User wrote...

How would the geth have been powerless to help any quarian survivors? 

"Creator, you appear to be freezing to death due to nuclear winter. Please wait while I build you an orbital habitat."

....six months later....

"Creator, you appear to have ignored my request that you wait and chosen to freeze to death before the habitat was complete. Regrettable."


or how about.....

"Creator, you appear to be starving to death due to this planet's inability to sustain any type of agriculture. Please wait while I invent a means of synthesizing food for you and build a factory to perform the synthesis."


.....


You get the idea. What could the Geth do to sustain a population of Quarians who were trapped on a planet that had been rendered uninhabitable, particularly since their Quarian brothers and sisters had already scarpered with every single ship that had life support and was able to fly?

Or not.

[Rip504]

I will not read any post in here.
Geth ARE wrong.
Quarians ARE wrong.
Genocide no. The Quarians still exist,if they die off now it is their fault.

If you think what the Geth did was self-defense,you are an *****, The Geth went way beyond self-defense.
Or Ah yes "Self-defense" we have dismissed these claims...

And if you fight for self-defense and then say the Geth can not be held to Organic standards,you just lost all ground for any agruement it was self-defense. Because you are holding them to an Organic standard. Even Legion agrees you should not do this.

Quarians created the Geth. The Geth knew the differnce between women,children,and soilders. Thinking anything different is ignorant.

Geth did not take PoW's. Geth killed until they couldn't kill anymore. Yes so at what point does it turn from self-defense to being the aggressor? The Quarians retreated,the Geth chased them to the Veil,only stopping when they could no longer physicaly pass beyond the veil as stated by Legion.
As Legion is the only Geth platform in 300 years. The time and effort it would take for the Geth to build platforms and chase the Quarians to their extinction is illogical. If the Quarians would have stayed,they would have been wiped out. All facts in ME point to this.

Quarians have sent ships into Geth space,trying to IDK. Geth have not matched any attempt to do the same. Yes you can say Heritics killed all ships entering Geth space,but Legion states Geth watch organics and were fully aware of what was going on. The entire galaxy considers you hostile and you make no attempts at showing them different why?

Modifié par Rip504, 06 février 2011 - 09:53 .

[James2912]

Rip504 wrote...

I will not read any post in here.
Geth ARE wrong.
Quarians ARE wrong.
Genocide no. The Quarians still exist,if they die off now it is their fault.

If you think what the Geth did was self-defense,you are an *****, The Geth went way beyond self-defense.
Or Ah yes "Self-defense" we have dismissed these claims...

And if you fight for self-defense and then say the Geth can not be held to Organic standards,you just lost all ground for any agruement it was self-defense. Because you are holding them to an Organic standard. Even Legion agrees you should not do this.

Quarians created the Geth. The Geth knew the differnce between women,children,and soilders. Thinking anything different is ignorant.

Geth did not take PoW's. Geth killed until they couldn't kill anymore. Yes so at what point does it turn from self-defense to being the aggressor? The Quarians retreated,the Geth chased them to the Veil,only stopping when they could no longer physicaly pass beyond the veil as stated by Legion.
As Legion is the only Geth platform in 300 years. The time and effort it would take for the Geth to build platforms and chase the Quarians to their extincion is illogical. If the Quarians would have stayed,they would have been wiped out. All facts in ME point to this.

Quarians have sent ships into Geth space,trying to IDK. Geth have not matched any attempt to do the same. Yes you can say Heritics killed all ships entering Geth space,but Legion states Geth watch organics and were fully aware of what was going on. The entire galaxy considers you hostile and you make no attempts at showing them different why?

I agree.

[Osena109]

James2912 wrote...

I heard that the Geth could not be killed on the other thread that they are all backed up on servers or something. Somebody else might know for sure.

I think the geth could be Killed the share a hive mind like if there more of them the become super smart in a group less of them in a group they become slugish form my understanding

[General User]

Pro_Consul wrote...

General User wrote...

How would the geth have been powerless to help any quarian survivors? 

"Creator, you appear to be freezing to death due to nuclear winter. Please wait while I build you an orbital habitat."

....six months later....

"Creator, you appear to have ignored my request that you wait and chosen to freeze to death before the habitat was complete. Regrettable."


or how about.....

"Creator, you appear to be starving to death due to this planet's inability to sustain any type of agriculture. Please wait while I invent a means of synthesizing food for you and build a factory to perform the synthesis."


.....


You get the idea. What could the Geth do to sustain a population of Quarians who were trapped on a planet that had been rendered uninhabitable, particularly since their Quarian brothers and sisters had already scarpered with every single ship that had life support and was able to fly?

Give the geth a little credit, they are more than capable of figuring out the conditions which quarians must attain in order to live.
 
Even under the most adverse conditions imaginable, the geth could have provided aid and succor to a limited number had they so chosen. They did not.  If they had, there would still be quarians alive under geth rule today.
 
But the idea that the geth, who had the wherewithal to topple the Quarian Empire, didn’t have the resources to aid at least some of the refugees who (for whatever reason) did not escape in the Migrant Fleet…puh-leez!

Modifié par General User, 06 février 2011 - 09:57 .

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Geth did not take PoW's. Geth killed until they couldn't kill anymore. Yes so at what point does it turn from self-defense to being the aggressor? The Quarians retreated,the Geth chased them to the Veil,only stopping when they could no longer physicaly pass beyond the veil as stated by Legion.

As Legion is the only Geth platform in 300 years. The time and effort it would take for the Geth to build platforms and chase the Quarians to their extincion is illogical. If the Quarians would have stayed,they would have been wiped out. All facts in ME point to this.

I agree.

Agree is one way to put what you are doing. "Choosing to believe in the total of absence of any direct evidence" is another.

Where is there any recorded instance of a single Geth platform killing a single unarmed civilian? Where is the evidence that the Geth took no prisoners? Where is the evidence that the Geth ever formed an intention to wipe out their creators? And when in the heck did Legion ever claim that the Geth were physically unable to pass beyond the veil?!?!

[James2912]

I would be more inclined to believe in your theory pro consul, if the Geth or the Quarians said once that the Geth were merciful. But from all that we know it was a genocidal war. I COMPLETELY AGREE that the Quarians would have done the same thing to the Geth if they had the chance.

[Rip504]

Osena109 wrote...

James2912 wrote...

I heard that the Geth could not be killed on the other thread that they are all backed up on servers or something. Somebody else might know for sure.

I think the geth could be Killed the share a hive mind like if there more of them the become super smart in a group less of them in a group they become slugish form my understanding

They all are sentient programs living on a server. Uploading and Downloading to Platforms. The Geth you see in ME are not individuals,but many Geth in a single platform. Legion is over a thousand Geth in a single platform.
Legion is not an individual Geth,But many Geth in one platform.

Kill the platform how can it upload? Destroy the server kill many many Geth.

[Rip504]

Pro_Consul wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Geth did not take PoW's. Geth killed until they couldn't kill anymore. Yes so at what point does it turn from self-defense to being the aggressor? The Quarians retreated,the Geth chased them to the Veil,only stopping when they could no longer physicaly pass beyond the veil as stated by Legion.

As Legion is the only Geth platform in 300 years. The time and effort it would take for the Geth to build platforms and chase the Quarians to their extincion is illogical. If the Quarians would have stayed,they would have been wiped out. All facts in ME point to this.

I agree.

Agree is one way to put what you are doing. "Choosing to believe in the total of absence of any direct evidence" is another.

Where is there any recorded instance of a single Geth platform killing a single unarmed civilian? Where is the evidence that the Geth took no prisoners? Where is the evidence that the Geth ever formed an intention to wipe out their creators? And when in the heck did Legion ever claim that the Geth were physically unable to pass beyond the veil?!?!

Really? Lol Play the games.

Modifié par Rip504, 06 février 2011 - 10:04 .

[General User]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Where is there any recorded instance of a single Geth platform killing a single unarmed civilian? Where is the evidence that the Geth took no prisoners? 

 
Would you hate me if I brought up Eden Prime… oops.

[General User]

James2912 wrote...

I would be more inclined to believe in your theory pro consul, if the Geth or the Quarians said once that the Geth were merciful. But from all that we know it was a genocidal war. I COMPLETELY AGREE that the Quarians would have done the same thing to the Geth if they had the chance.

Word.  If the thread was asking "Did the quarians commit genocide?"  I would be arguing 'pro' on that one as well (with a caveat for 'attempted').

[Rip504]

The Genocide aspect of this is kinda stupid.

The Krogan committed Genocide on the Rachni.

Shepard saves the Rachni queen,the Rachni are no longer extinct. Now the Krogan attempted Genocide,but did not commit Genocide.

As the Quarians and Geth are still alive neither party committed Genocide. Did they try? Is another story/question.

[Pro_Consul]

General User wrote...

Give the geth a little credit, they are more than capable of figuring out the conditions which quarians must attain in order to live.

Knowing what Quarians need in order to live does not impart any ability to provide it. Knowing they need an environment between 5 and 30 degrees Celsius does not magically create that environment on a planet where the mean land temperature is -5  or -10 degrees due to nuclear winter. And it can take a lot longer to build a shelter than it does to die from hypothermia.

Knowing that Compound XYZ is toxic to Quarians does not impart any ability to provide a clean living space when the entire planet is being regularly subjected to ashfalls or acid rain heavily laced with Compound XYZ. And it can take longer to build such a habitat than it takes to suffer lethal level of exposure to the toxins.

Knowing that Quarians need a minimum 1000 calories per day of edible food intake does not suddenly give you access to fields ripe with edible food on a planet that has been rendered incapable of supporting agriculture. And creating a synthetic food plant can take a LOT longer than it takes to starve to death.
 

General User wrote...

Even under the most adverse conditions imaginable, the geth could have provided aid and succor to a limited number had they so chosen. They did not.  If they had, there would still be quarians alive under geth rule today.

How do you know they had the ability? And even supposing they did, how do you know they didn't do it? Trying to rescue and save a population that has been abandoned on an UNINHABITABLE planet can be a bit on the difficult side, particularly when you have ZERO ships equipped with life support systems. The likelihood that every single person will have died before you can build the equipment/facilities necessary to save them is really quite high. And even if they saved a handful of people, how would we know it if those people didn't leave descendants to tell us about it?

General User wrote...

But the idea that the geth, who had the wherewithal to topple the Quarian Empire, didn’t have the resources to aid at least some of the refugees who (for whatever reason) did not escape in the Migrant Fleet…puh-leez!

The assumption that the Geth, a synthetic life form that very possibly survived the war so handily in part due to their immunity to such things as starvation, bitter cold, toxic residue and radiation sickness, could somehow magically conjure the ability to impart this immunity to an entire population of Quarians abandoned on an UNINHABITABLE planet .....puh-leez!

[Pro_Consul]

General User wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Where is there any recorded instance of a single Geth platform killing a single unarmed civilian? Where is the evidence that the Geth took no prisoners? 

 
Would you hate me if I brought up Eden Prime… oops.

No, but I might sneer a bit, since the context under discussion is so obviously the Morning War. I seriously doubt the Eden Prime attack had any relevance to whether the Geth had committed genocide 300 years earlier. But if anyone thinks it did, then by all means bring it up and enlighten us.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 10:36 .

[James2912]

Rip504 wrote...

The Genocide aspect of this is kinda stupid.
The Krogan committed Genocide on the Rachni.
Shepard saves the Rachni queen,the Rachni are no longer extinct. Now the Krogan attempted Genocide,but did not commit Genocide.
As the Quarians and Geth are still alive neither party committed Genocide. Did they try? Is another story/question.

Genocide is the mass killing of a people not their extinction.

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

I would be more inclined to believe in your theory pro consul, if the Geth or the Quarians said once that the Geth were merciful. But from all that we know it was a genocidal war.

And I would be more inclined to believe in your  theory, James, if the Geth or the Quarians had said even once that the Geth were relentlessly aggressive. They DO say about that the Quarians, but certainly not about the Geth.

[James2912]

Thats why I hope that Bioware will clear this up eventually!  maybe with a book or comic.

Also the Geth certainly did not kick the Quarians off their planet by tickling them. 

Modifié par James2912, 06 février 2011 - 10:39 .

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

Thats why I hope that Bioware will clear this up eventually!  maybe with a book or comic.

Yeah, I would love it if they released a prequel novel about the MW. There is so little known about it that they have plenty of creative room to maneuver without running afoul of any canon violations. I am also intensely curious about how the selection of who got to evacuate on the flotilla factored into the new Quarian society that then emerged on the Migrant Fleet. Perhaps the Quarians of today are so fixated on exterminating or enslaving the Geth because those chosen for the evacuation were primarily the people in government and the military and their families, and so their priorities and outlook have been skewed toward the militant from the very beginning... I don't know, but it would certainly be interesting to find out.

James2912 wrote...

Also the Geth certainly did not kick the Quarians off their planet by tickling them.

Like I said, we don't know that the Geth kicked them off the planet at all. By means of their mindless, relentless aggressive approach to attacking the Geth, the Quarians could very well have fouled their own nest, rendering their own planet uninhabitable. It certainly fits how they are characterized and dovetails with the known fact that the planet WAS in fact rendered uninhabitable during the MW.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 11:05 .

[bookwurmneo]

Pro_Consul wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Thats why I hope that Bioware will clear this up eventually!  maybe with a book or comic.

Yeah, I would love it if they released a prequel novel about the MW. There is so little known about it that they have plenty of creative room to maneuver without running afoul of any canon violations. I am also intensely curious about how the selection of who got to evacuate on the flotilla factored into the new Quarian society that then emerged on the Migrant Fleet. Perhaps the Quarians of today are so fixated on exterminating or enslaving the Geth because those chosed for the evacuation were primarily the people in government and the military and their families, and so their priorities and outlook have been skewed toward the militant from the very beginning... I don't know, but it would certainly be interesting to find out.

I really would love a book or maybe even a trilogy chronicling the rise of the geth and shaping of the quarian.  I definetaly agree with you on the ingrained militancy of the flotilla.  I also have to wonder if the quarians weren't originally a unified people as that would explain the importance of what ship you belonged to.

[James2912]

[quote]Pro_Consul wrote...

[quote]James2912 wrote...

Thats why I hope that Bioware will clear this up eventually!  maybe with a book or comic.[/quote]

Yeah, I would love it if they released a prequel novel about the MW. There is so little known about it that they have plenty of creative room to maneuver without running afoul of any canon violations. I am also intensely curious about how the selection of who got to evacuate on the flotilla factored into the new Quarian society that then emerged on the Migrant Fleet. Perhaps the Quarians of today are so fixated on exterminating or enslaving the Geth because those chosed for the evacuation were primarily the people in government and the military and their families, and so their priorities and outlook have been skewed toward the militant from the very beginning... I don't know, but it would certainly be interesting to find out.


I agree it has the potential to be a fascinating story no matter how they explain it! As long as they explain it!

Modifié par James2912, 06 février 2011 - 10:50 .

[Rip504]

Pro where are you getting this nuclear winter from? Uninhabitable planet? I read wiki about the war it says nothing about this. You prove nothing you say and then tell other ppl to have proof, otherwise their arguements are invalid. But you provide no facts behind your staements. I don't recall this Quarian nuclear winter,maybe you could enlighten me. The Krogans were living in the middle of a nuclear winter I recall that.

With proof not some random assumption you make. Prove Geth are as peaceful as you say. Prove the Geth didn't kill innocent civilians.