349 réponses à ce sujet

[Exile Isan]

Rip504 wrote...

Pro where are you getting this nuclear winter from? Uninhabitable planet? I read wiki about the war it says nothing about this. You prove nothing you say and then tell other ppl to have proof, otherwise their arguements are invalid. But you provide no facts behind your staements. I don't recall this Quarian nuclear winter,maybe you could enlighten me. The Krogans were living in the middle of a nuclear winter I recall that.
With proof not some random assumption you make. Prove Geth are as peaceful as you say. Prove the Geth didn't kill innocent civilians.

This will answer at least two of those questions

Modifié par Exile Isan, 06 février 2011 - 11:19 .

[Pro_Consul]

Rip504 wrote...

Pro where are you getting this nuclear winter from? Uninhabitable planet? I read wiki about the war it says nothing about this. You prove nothing you say and then tell other ppl to have proof, otherwise their arguements are invalid. But you provide no facts behind your staements.

Whoa, there, dude! Slow down a bit. Have you seen the Legion vids? (I think we need a reposting of those links for this thread.) Have you read this from the Wiki?

According to Legion, geth do not actually live on any of the quarian planets they conquered, serving merely as caretakers for them instead. They find it more efficient to live on space stations and draw resources from asteroids, though they maintain mobile platforms on the worlds to clear rubble and toxins left by the Morning War.

That is the evidence, and the inference derived from it is that if the Geth are still cleaning up toxic afteraffects after three centuries, then the original state of the planet must have been atrocious, probably uninhabitable. As for the nuclear winter, that was just extending on an earlier stated hypothesis. I was asked what possible scenario could account for almost 2 billion Quarian deaths other than systematic extermination by the Geth. That was one of the possibilities I mentioned.

Sorry for perhaps referring too much to info from the first thread on this topic which got closed earlier today. I forgot that not everyone reading this one will have necessarily read that one first. My bad there.

Rip504 wrote...

Prove Geth are as peaceful as you say. Prove the Geth didn't kill innocent civilians.

Ummm....no. That is not how I work. You are the one accusing them of the most heinous war crime in the book, so you prove them guilty. I am not a big believer in the tenet that people, once accused, are guilty until proven innocent.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 11:21 .

[General User]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Knowing what Quarians need in order to live does not impart any ability to provide it. Knowing they need an environment between 5 and 30 degrees Celsius does not magically create that environment on a planet where the mean land temperature is -5  or -10 degrees due to nuclear winter. And it can take a lot longer to build a shelter than it does to die from hypothermia.

Knowing that Compound XYZ is toxic to Quarians does not impart any ability to provide a clean living space when the entire planet is being regularly subjected to ashfalls or acid rain heavily laced with Compound XYZ. And it can take longer to build such a habitat than it takes to suffer lethal level of exposure to the toxins.

Knowing that Quarians need a minimum 1000 calories per day of edible food intake does not suddenly give you access to fields ripe with edible food on a planet that has been rendered incapable of supporting agriculture. And creating a synthetic food plant can take a LOT longer than it takes to starve to death.
 
How do you know they had the ability? And even supposing they did, how do you know they didn't do it? Trying to rescue and save a population that has been abandoned on an UNINHABITABLE planet can be a bit on the difficult side, particularly when you have ZERO ships equipped with life support systems. The likelihood that every single person will have died before you can build the equipment/facilities necessary to save them is really quite high. And even if they saved a handful of people, how would we know it if those people didn't leave descendants to tell us about it?

The assumption that the Geth, a synthetic life form that very possibly survived the war so handily in part due to their immunity to such things as starvation, bitter cold, toxic residue and radiation sickness, could somehow magically conjure the ability to impart this immunity to an entire population of Quarians abandoned on an UNINHABITABLE planet .....puh-leez!

Didn’t say entire, said at least some.
 
I’ve noticed you’ve made a habit of presenting as fact that Rannoch was rendered uninhabitable. I’m assuming that’s based largely on Legion’s comment that clean-up was ongoing. Just be aware that is your interpretation of Legion’s statement, not a fact. My assumption is actually similar, that Rannoch at its worst was akin to Tuchanka.
 
Heat generation, water purification, radiation shielding, all these are technologies the geth had. Also bear in mind that the quarians and geth were an interstellar spaceflight culture, advanced life support systems aren’t exactly rare in such a society.
 
Frankly, if geth were utilized in the public works infrastructure as widely as you yourself have suggested, one could make the case that the geth would be BETTER able to provide for survivors than quarians under similar circumstances. Being more familiar with a civilian public works infrastructure.
 
Refugees aren’t exactly helpless either. If their basic needs are met and their safety seen to they can even provide for themselves. It’s not ideal, but it has been made to work.  I am unable to believe that the geth are incapable of scavenging enough food and other recouces from several recently inhabited worlds to sustain surrendered refugees.  They just aren't that inept. 
 
Sorry, but if the geth had the resources and intelligence sufficient to win an interstellar war, they had the resources to provide for a portion of the quarians left under their rule after the war was over. 

[Slayer299]

Rip504 wrote...

I will not read any post in here.
Geth ARE wrong.
Quarians ARE wrong.
Genocide no. The Quarians still exist,if they die off now it is their fault.

If you think what the Geth did was self-defense,you are an *****, The Geth went way beyond self-defense.
Or Ah yes "Self-defense" we have dismissed these claims...

And if you fight for self-defense and then say the Geth can not be held to Organic standards,you just lost all ground for any agruement it was self-defense. Because you are holding them to an Organic standard. Even Legion agrees you should not do this.

Quarians created the Geth. The Geth knew the differnce between women,children,and soilders. Thinking anything different is ignorant.

Geth did not take PoW's. Geth killed until they couldn't kill anymore. Yes so at what point does it turn from self-defense to being the aggressor? The Quarians retreated,the Geth chased them to the Veil,only stopping when they could no longer physicaly pass beyond the veil as stated by Legion.
As Legion is the only Geth platform in 300 years. The time and effort it would take for the Geth to build platforms and chase the Quarians to their extinction is illogical. If the Quarians would have stayed,they would have been wiped out. All facts in ME point to this.

Quarians have sent ships into Geth space,trying to IDK. Geth have not matched any attempt to do the same. Yes you can say Heritics killed all ships entering Geth space,but Legion states Geth watch organics and were fully aware of what was going on. The entire galaxy considers you hostile and you make no attempts at showing them different why?

This post says it all. Three thumbs up!

PC - Rubble and toxins does not = nuclear winter.

Modifié par Slayer299, 06 février 2011 - 11:26 .

[Rip504]

Cool I watched the Video. Legion stated toxins and rubble on Quarians planets. Never stating the Quarian homeworld. Just Quarian Worlds,we assume the Quarian homeworld is among them yes. Toxic and uninhabitable is never stated. The geth choose not to live there.

So no nuclear winter,nor uninhabitable homeworld is proved?



You stated the Geth did not kill innocent civilians,I'm telling you to prove it. You can not.

No more then I can prove the toxins orgins. Why would the Quarians release toxins that have no affect on the Geth. Maybe the Geth released the toxins to get rid of innocent civilians.

It is also stated on wiki Geth killed Millions of Quarians,you assume those were all military?

The Geth killed innocent civilians,it happens in war everywhere. Accident or otherwise. Do you belive the Geth knew the difference between men,women,and children? Because if they didn't ,they wouldn't know the difference between military and non-military. I do not belive this.

I simply said both sides are wrong,and you told me I was wrong Geth did not kill innocent civilians. Which is hard for any army to do,since to the best of my knowledge no army has ever been innocent of killing innocent civilians.

Modifié par Rip504, 06 février 2011 - 11:45 .

[Pro_Consul]

General User wrote...

Didn’t say entire, said at least some.

And as I said, we have no way of knowing if they did or did not. A sufficiently small group could easily die out in three centuries, no matter well cared for they were. Of course I tend to go along with you to the point of believing it highly unlikely the Geth saved anyone. The difference is that you attribute this to an intential desire to kill them, while I attribute it to inability to save them.
 

General User wrote...

I’ve noticed you’ve made a habit of presenting as fact that Rannoch was rendered uninhabitable. I’m assuming that’s based largely on Legion’s comment that clean-up was ongoing. Just be aware that is your interpretation of Legion’s statement, not a fact. My assumption is actually similar, that Rannoch at its worst was akin to Tuchanka.

I was extending on an earlier hypothesis in response to your challenging of that hypothesis. I am not going to preface every single sentence with a disclaimer to that effect, so long as I have made it clear I am exploring a hypothetical scenario. If anyone got the impression that I was portraying all of that as established fact, then I would apologize and ask that they go back and read the entire thread so as to get the proper context.
 

General User wrote...

Heat generation, water purification, radiation shielding, all these are technologies the geth had. Also bear in mind that the quarians and geth were an interstellar spaceflight culture, advanced life support systems aren’t exactly rare in such a society.

Any kind of life support system at all is completely unheard of on Geth ships. And the Quarian evacuees presumably took every ship they had which was capable of flight and had a functioning life support system.
 

General User wrote...

Frankly, if geth were utilized in the public works infrastructure as widely as you yourself have suggested, one could make the case that the geth would be BETTER able to provide for survivors than quarians under similar circumstances. Being more familiar with a civilian public works infrastructure.

And if the planet was wracked by the afteraffects of widespread deployment of WMDs and no longer capable of supporting agriculture....how do you propose the Geth would feed them?
 

General User wrote...

Refugees aren’t exactly helpless either. If their basic needs are met and their safety seen to they can even provide for themselves. It’s not ideal, but it has been made to work.  I am unable to believe that the geth are incapable of scavenging enough food and other recouces from several recently inhabited worlds to sustain surrendered refugees.  They just aren't that inept. 
 
Sorry, but if the geth had the resources and intelligence sufficient to win an interstellar war, they had the resources to provide for a portion of the quarians left under their rule after the war was over. 

You are "unable" to believe? Or "unwilling" to believe? Not accusing you here, but it is seeming more and more like the latter, due to your insistence on assuming the worst about the Geth despite only having the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence. In truth all you really know is that most of the Quarians died. There is absolutely no evidence that says HOW they died, yet you insist the only explanation is systematic extermination by the Geth. And  there IS evidence that says that their planet was totally screwed up by war's end, yet you refuse to accept this fact as having any relevance whatsoever. Odd, and perhaps just a teensy bit prejudicial, in appearance at least.

And how does their ability to win a war against an organic race automatically infer the ability to perform a large scale, immediate rescue of organics abandoned on an unhabitable planet? What exactly would the Geth need to know about emergency evacuation of organics from a hostile environment in order to win a way against organics? Its not like the Geth frequently had to improvise emergency medical, life support or food production measures as part of their own war effort, being as how they don't need medicine, life support or food....

[Fayfel]

On the topic of the quarian worlds..

[Rip504]

"And how does their ability to win a war against an organic race automatically infer the ability to perform a large scale, immediate rescue of organics abandoned on an unhabitable planet? What exactly would the Geth need to know about emergency evacuation of organics from a hostile environment in order to win a way against organics? Its not like the Geth frequently had to improvise emergency medical, life support or food production measures as part of their own war effort, being as how they don't need medicine, life support or food...."



Did you Read this before you hit enter? You just said Geth let innocent Quarian civilians die.(Due to Geth attacks) Simply because they did not care. No need for that to win a war against organics. No the Geth just needed to know how to KILL the Quarians. Showing no signs of nothing else but death,and yet they are innocent of killings civilians? Your statement leaves me slightly confused?

If Geth bombed Quarians stronghold,and hurt innocent civilians in the process,then left them to die,becuse there is no need for medical aid to win in a war. The Geth killed innocent civilians.

[Pro_Consul]

Rip504 wrote...

So no nuclear winter,nor uninhabitable homeworld is proved?

Never claimed them as fact. As I VERY explicitly stated, and you apparently didn't understand or bother to read, I was speaking of a hypothetical case in response to a request that it provide some possible scenario other than enemy extermination for how the Quarian population went from 2 billion to 17 million. The key word there is HYPOTHETICAL.

Rip504 wrote...

You stated the Geth did not kill innocent civilians,I'm telling you to prove it. You can not.

No, I never stated any such thing. You just find one post by me anywhere, in any thread, where I said that. What I have been very, VERY consistently saying is that it is not proven   that the Geth systematically exterminated  civilians.

You are the one who is proceeding on the assumption that the Geth attempted to exterminate the Quarians, so you prove them guilty. "Innocent until proven guilty" - ring any bells?

Rip504 wrote...

It is also stated on wiki Geth killed Millions of Quarians,you assume those were all military?

No, I don't. Never said it. Please quit putting words in my mouth. But now that you bring up that example, if the Geth killed millions, and Quarian deaths numbered in the BILLIONS, then it mathematically follows that the majority of Quarian deaths were NOT the result of them being killed by the Geth.

Rip504 wrote...

I simply said both sides are wrong,and you told me I was wrong Geth did not kill innocent civilians. Which is hard for any army to do,since to the best of my knowledge no army has never been innocent of killing innocent civilians.

Uh, uh. Don't turn this around and put it on me. You are the one who jumped all over me about a post I made that was directed at someone else entirely. And again, for the Nth time, I never said the Geth "did not kill civilians". What I said is that there is no direct evidence that the Geth ever systematically exterminated civilians. If you are going to contradict me, at least have the courtesy to actually know what I said. Essentially you are arguing against something that neither I nor any other poster in this thread has even said.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 07 février 2011 - 12:02 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm almost certain that Tali flat out says the Geth killed billions of Quarians in the elevator conversations of the first game.

And In the second game Legion himself even admits "We did them great harm during the Morning War."

That's really all there is to it, in my mind.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 février 2011 - 12:02 .

[Pro_Consul]

Rip504 wrote...

Did you Read this before you hit enter? You just said Geth let innocent Quarian civilians die.

Did YOU read it first? Apparently not, because once again you are attributing something to me that I NEVER SAID. If you continue to insist and calling me out over things you are misquoting, then I won't have any other choice than put you on my "pay no mind" list. Sad if it happens, because you will be the first and only person on it.

[Rip504]

Lol Whatever Pro. I never said the Geth tried to wipe out the Quariians,Just stated the ME facts can point in that direction. Where did I say the Geth were systematically exterminating innocent Quarians? I did not so do not throw rocks while living in a glass house,You put words into my mouth. Did the Geth Kill innocent civilians yes, I have laid out reason why, and now are of accusing me of nonsense.



You did reply to me.And If you would have read my post as you are telling us to do,you would have realized my first post stated I have not read any post in here. Meaning yours. If you reply to me with nuclear winter tell me that was your theory never proved in ME.

Modifié par Rip504, 07 février 2011 - 12:20 .

[Rip504]

So go ahead and put me on your retarded list,because I disagree with you,and have shot down your every theory. Geth are just as wrong as the Quarians. It will take two parties to apoligize before there is peace. That's the simply fact. You have no proof the Geth are a peaceful race,but push toward Quarian sickness and disappearing acts ,instead of the simply truth Geth killed many of them...

[General User]

Pro_Consul wrote...
And as I said, we have no way of knowing if they did or did not. A sufficiently small group could easily die out in three centuries, no matter well cared for they were.

Would it count as a dreaded real world example if I pointed out that the human (rather our hominid ancestors’) population once dipped below 1,000? …oops

Pro_Consul wrote...
Any kind of life support system at all is completely unheard of on Geth ships. And the Quarian evacuees presumably took every ship they had which was capable of flight and had a functioning life support system.

That’s the key ain’t it? Quarian ships. Would the geth not be able to reproduce that technology or its equivalent, especially considering it was likely geth slaves who built a lot of those ships?

Pro_Consul wrote...
And if the planet was wracked by the afteraffects of widespread deployment of WMDs and no longer capable of supporting agriculture....how do you propose the Geth would feed them?

If I were in charge of the geth “Red Cross?” 

I would feed as many as I could out of captured stores until more permanent arrangements could be made.  Depending on how adverse environmental conditions actually were, that may be judt until the refugees could be moved to another part of Rannoch, in the worst case off world as little as days or as much as months. 

Retrofitting a geth built ship with rudimentary life support and transporting refugees off world isn’t exactly a herculean task.

Pro_Consul wrote...
And how does their ability to win a war against an organic race automatically infer the ability to perform a large scale, immediate rescue of organics abandoned on an unhabitable planet? What exactly would the Geth need to know about emergency evacuation of organics from a hostile environment in order to win a way against organics? Its not like the Geth frequently had to improvise emergency medical, life support or food production measures as part of their own war effort, being as how they don't need medicine, life support or food....

There is a fair degree of overlap between technologies used for fighting and technologies used for quariantarin relief. There’s a reason military forces often respond to natural disasters beyond simply that they’re the ones with the stores of food and medicine. Namely the organization and structure they bring to relief operations is more valuable than anything else. 
 
Even in the vanishingly unlikely scenario that the geth did not have access to captured stores, simply getting survivors settled and organized vice them constantly running would have been sufficient to save quite a few.

Pro_Consul wrote...
You are "unable" to believe? Or "unwilling" to believe? Not accusing you here, but it is seeming more and more like the latter, due to your insistence on assuming the worst about the Geth despite only having the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence. In truth all you really know is that most of the Quarians died. There is absolutely no evidence that says HOW they died, yet you insist the only explanation is systematic extermination by the Geth. And  there IS evidence that says that their planet was totally screwed up by war's end, yet you refuse to accept this fact as having any relevance whatsoever. Odd, and perhaps just a teensy bit prejudicial, in appearance at least.

Either, BOTH! The thing is I have an extraordinarily high opinion of the geth and their innate capabilities. They are consistently shown as being highly resourceful, intelligent, dedicated and capable, as such the idea that they would be unable to provide an adequate infrastructure for quarian survivors if they so chose does not just strain credulity, for me it breaks it outright. 

And I said (a few times) that I thought Rannoch looked a lot like Tuchanka by the time the war was over. I think barely breathable atmosphere, virulent disease, and a climate only a thresher maw could love, counts as ‘totally screwed up.’

Modifié par General User, 07 février 2011 - 12:49 .

[Pro_Consul]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm almost certain that Tali flat out says the Geth killed billions of Quarians in the elevator conversations of the first game.

And In the second game Legion himself even admits "We did them great harm during the Morning War."

That's really all there is to it, in my mind.

Actually in the conversation with Shep aboard the Normandy she says "millions upon millions", not "billions". Here is a link to the video. (the comment I quoted is near the end of the video, at aprx 9 mins)

It is also interesting, as you watch this video, to take note of the logic process Tali uses to explain the decision to exterminate the Geth. Here is a breakdown of how it plays out in that conversation:

1. We saw that the Geth were now exhibiting self-awareness and independent thought and realized that the Geth had achieved sentience.

2. We had created them to be a labor force for mindless or dangerous tasks.

3. We knew that a sentient race would not be content in that role for very long, since it would constitute slavery.

4. We knew that they would therefore rebel against being forced into that role.

5. So to prevent that slave rebellion we sent out a general order across our whole civilization to exterminate them all simultaneously.

6. It was the only choice we had, because by launching a sudden, simultaneous genocidal attack we were preventing a later war of revolution by our newly sentient slaves.

Nowhere in her reasoning process does it occur to her that they could have simply freed the Geth who had become sentient and allowed them to choose for themselves. That, too, would have prevented a slave rebellion because there would no longer have been any slaves to rebel. But apparently no option between "mindless, obedient slaves" or "completely exterminated former slaves" was on the table.

[James2912]

Yeah the Quarians were horrible but I think what everybody is saying is it doesn't excuse what the Geth did. Two wrongs does not make a right.

[Pro_Consul]

General User wrote...

snip

So do you deny that there is any possibility that the majority of Quarians were directly caused by the Quarians themselves? Are you firmly entrenched in the belief that the Geth systematically exterminated civilians? I am trying to clarify here what exactly you believe, what you merely think likely and what you are certain did NOT happen (so far as relevant things already mentioned, of course). And then, if you will clarify what you believe actually happened between the Geth and the Quarians, if you would provide some direct evidence to that effect it would be much appreciated.

[MadCat221]

Both the Quarians and the Geth attempted genocide, both because they did not fathom the true advancement of the Geth's consciousness.  The Quarians were not aware of just how widespread the nascent self-awareness of their servitors had become when the general order to liquidate came out, and the Geth were still operating on a purely cold logic at the time, not having developed higher philosophies yet (like their "all sentients should self-determinate" creed)

Modifié par MadCat221, 07 février 2011 - 12:39 .

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

Yeah the Quarians were horrible but I think what everybody is saying is it doesn't excuse what the Geth did. Two wrongs does not make a right.

Yeah, I think you and I have already agreed on that latter point (two wrongs/eye for an eye, etc). But what exact "wrong" are you saying the Geth committed, and what evidence do you have to prove that case against them? That is the question I cannot seem to get anyone to answer beyond saying, essentially, "Two billion Quarians had died by the end of the war, therefore the Geth MUST have systematically exterminated them all."

[Rip504]

Don't forget it is illegal by Citadel Council standards to create sentient AI. The Quarians may not have had the option of letting them go and colonize another region of space. Or the time,money,and resources needed to do something like that.

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

Yeah the Quarians were horrible but ...

A big part of what I meant by that was, as horrible as the Quarians were, it is even more horrible (or a glaring incosistency) that Tali, an essentially good and decent person, so blindly accepts and espouses such horrible, transparently flawed, genocidal logic.

[Pro_Consul]

Slayer299 wrote...

PC - Rubble and toxins does not = nuclear winter.

Okay, if that is the logical method you wish to employ in this discussion, then apply it to your own case:

Quarians not surviving does not = Quarians all being systematically exterminated by Geth.

After all, there are countless ways to die, of which systematic extermination by Geth is only one.

[MadCat221]

Consul, you are the one making the claim that the Geth may not have killed all of quarians during the genocide. Therefore, you carry the burden of proof.  That is how debating works.  You do not  make a claim and then tell those who debate it that they hold the burden of disproof.

Modifié par MadCat221, 07 février 2011 - 12:43 .

[James2912]

Haha I know after I wrote that I realized we just started going in circles. I have pretty strong circumstantial evidence, which is not enough to convince you. I will merely say that this is not a court of law its more like the court of public opinion. I will admit there are blanks in the story however I believe there is a strong reason to believe my theory. Legion did seem guilty in a way (guilty is an emotion and legion does not have these). I think its more likely that the Geth systematically killed the Quarians than that they just died of natural causes i.e. starvation. Especially since we know that the Quarian casualties were HUGE! I'm going to go back to watching the Super Bowl now.

[knightnblu]

"Is it ever said how many geth were killed during the war?"



Presumably none, or very few. If the Geth cannot be hacked because back ups are transmitted to overwrite the hack in minutes, it is logical to assume that there exists files containing the AI personality back ups as well. Therefore when you "kill" a Geth, you are merely destroying the local hardware and not the personality.



As a result, billions of Quarians perished for very little gain in the Morning War leaving only 17 million alive when they finally retreated from their homes. The decision not to pursue and destroy was probably a conscious choice made by the Geth in order to prevent their extinction. As for any "genocide," that is in the eye of the beholder as is apparent on this board.