349 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

knightnblu wrote...

"Is it ever said how many geth were killed during the war?"

Presumably none, or very few. If the Geth cannot be hacked because back ups are transmitted to overwrite the hack in minutes, it is logical to assume that there exists files containing the AI personality back ups as well. Therefore when you "kill" a Geth, you are merely destroying the local hardware and not the personality.

As a result, billions of Quarians perished for very little gain in the Morning War leaving only 17 million alive when they finally retreated from their homes. The decision not to pursue and destroy was probably a conscious choice made by the Geth in order to prevent their extinction. As for any "genocide," that is in the eye of the beholder as is apparent on this board.

I just want to say "good" guys can comitt genocide too. There is a set definition of the word genocide, the mass killing of a race. The Quarians were nearly driven to extinction. The only thing being argued here is whether the majority of the Quarian casualties were caused by the Geth or by the Quarians themselves i.e. destroying the enviroment. I'm trying not to use real life examples here but "genocide is not in the "eye of the beholder." I may have misunderstood you, its just a lot of people have been unsure about the definition of genocide today. 

[Vociferation]

Survival of the fittest...and...the Quarians weren't quite fit enough. The Quarians seem like your basic inquisitive nerd species more bent toward science than overpowering...too bad for them that they created their superior. I do hope they find a new home world so they can take of their masks and breathe clean air. Still, they're greatly out numbered and out gunned as far as ME species go...will need some firm bonds and political protection to stay in the running, or, some great distance between the flotilla and the other races to survive indefinitely. I'd say they created the means for genocide to occur.

Unlike the Salarians / Turians...the Quarians commited their initial atrocities...seemingly...by accident.

Modifié par Vociferation, 07 février 2011 - 12:56 .

[Rip504]

Billions of Quarians died. Pro said Geth had no need for medical aid in a war.(For Quarians).

So Geth knew how to kill Quarians. Quarians opposed a threat until they retreated beyond the veil. Geth did not stop killing Quarians until they ventured beyond the veil. Due to the threat the Quarians opposed. All facts. So I would say, It is safe to say ,wherever there were Quarians,there were Geth killing them, all the way to the veil, and all inbetween. I do feel that way. The Quarians kept attacking? Their mistake,but the Geth kept killing them.

If the Quarians retreated to one of their worlds behind the veil,and the Geth didn't kill them there,What sense would it make to retreat beyond the veil? It was war between Geth and Quarians in what was Quarian space(Now Geth Space). The Geth came to the conclusion(Still 300 Years later) that everytime the "creators" had a chance to attack they did. So it only makes sense the Geth logicaly systematicaly wiped out the Quarian threat from their space,just for simple saftey. When the Quarians retreated beyond the Veil,they no longer posed a threat. No longer a need to defend yourself from a calculated threat.
How many time did the Quarians attack the Geth? It is never said. So what are the Geth truly basing their conclusion on? 3 attacks? When did it stop becoming the Quarians are attacking us,to We need to protect ourselves from a calculated threat?

Modifié par Rip504, 07 février 2011 - 01:08 .

[General User]

My understanding is: about 17 million quarians left the 'old empire' in the Migrant Fleet and the rest of quarian people died in the war.

If that number was in the billions, as Tali claims, that makes for a +99% casualty rate.

Modifié par General User, 07 février 2011 - 01:23 .

[Nightwriter]

It is hard for me to see a retaliatory act as genocide.

Unless we're talking about Rwanda. So perhaps I should rephrase.

It is hard for me to see an act inspired by self-defense as genocide.

[James2912]

Genocide can be inspired by anything, its still genocide. Its like killing somebody might be for the most selfless of reasons, yet you still killed somebody. Its a word that describes an action. But there is a lot of emotion attached to the word as their should be.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Self-defense: the quarians were attempting to commit genocide against them. You could say they overreacted, but synthetics don't have the same morality that we do. They were simply neutralizing a threat.  Does that make the Morning War any less tragic or forgivable?  No.

The term "genocide" is unapplicable to the Geth. Since they are a "synthetic life form", they don't have a genus. Even calling them a "race" is incorrect. We really should try to expand our views through new concepts, when a newly registered phenomenon warrants it, rather then cram such a phenomenon into the familiar but outdated frame of thinking.

However, the Geth themselves could carry out a genocide of the Quarians, which doesn't meant that they did. We don't really know if some WMDs were used by them (and if they were, it would have been an act of war, rather than a genocide), or the toxic waste Legion speaks of was a result of the Quarian infrastructure collapse in general.

Anyway, I believe anywhere between 5% and 95% of the Quarian pre-war population may have not been killed by the Geth, but by themesleves in the chaos that ensued after the wealthy and the lucky fled their planets aboard space ships. Foor riots come to mind first, but perhaps the Quarians had become so dependant on the Geth before they rebelled, that they simply could not exist without their synthetic servants. The Geth could just watch how the Quarians were dying out and do nothing.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 février 2011 - 02:11 .

[General User]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Even if billions of Quarians died, do we actually know that it's the Geth that killed them? Or did they die slowly from diseases due to overcrowding on their ships? They can't have developed all their clean room and enviro suit technologies all of a sudden - there are likely the lessons learned from multiple disasters in public health.

Think of it as Athens besieged by Sparta in the Peloponnesian War, or the Siege of Constantinople (I forgot which ones. But the Ottoman siege around 1400 works as an example). Loss of most territories => evacuate into crowded locations for extended period of time => overcrowding and lack of resources (food) result in plagues and drastically reduced population.

Not to mention the Quarian immune system were weak even before the Morning War.

The thing is 17 million is mentioned as being at or near the Flotilla’s vital capacity (hence the stringent population controls). And the Flotilla is not mentioned as having an appreciable net gain or loss of ships over the centuries.
 
The initial chaos, the varying capacities of old and new ships, as they are converted and retrofitted over the years…
 
Who’s to say? But I’m putting my money on +/- 20%, but I could go as high as +/-33%, and if someone said +/- 50%, I wouldn’t argue.
 
Quarian immune systems! ARRGH! Not weak by nature, Weak at fighting off infections, weak at countering pathogens. Adaptive by nature.  

[CaptainZaysh]

Nightwriter wrote...

It is hard for me to see a retaliatory act as genocide.

Unless we're talking about Rwanda. So perhaps I should rephrase.

It is hard for me to see an act inspired by self-defense as genocide.

So if in 1945 the Allies had proceeded to slaughter 99% of the populations of Germany and Japan, you wouldn't see it as genocide?

[TRISTAN WERBE]

wait what?

[James2912]

Eeek be careful guys previous threads about this subject have been closed down because it turned to real life issues. I don't want that to happen to this one. I get there are some extremely relevant examples but rules are rules.

[Nightwriter]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It is hard for me to see a retaliatory act as genocide.

Unless we're talking about Rwanda. So perhaps I should rephrase.

It is hard for me to see an act inspired by self-defense as genocide.

So if in 1945 the Allies had proceeded to slaughter 99% of the populations of Germany and Japan, you wouldn't see it as genocide?

Were the Allied powers newly dawning consciousnesses with an emotionless perception of reality who likely had no real grasp of murder or death? And had Germany attempted mass genocide on the Americans, Brits, Frenchmen, Italians and Russians combined?

CONTEXT KA-CHA!

[White_Buffalo94]

I agree they committed genocide as well and I also believe the Quarians had a right to destroy their creation. How would you react if your printer began asking why he has to print for you? We would all go "Office Space" on it I am sure and would not believe we are in the wrong, rightly so.

Either way, given the chance my Shepard is going to destroy the Geth and give the homeworld back to the Quarians (and Tali). My only worry is that after such a long occupation of the Geth Idk what it will look like. Maybe it would look completely synthetic, but I don't want the Geth either way. They aren't friendly in the slightest.

[Legbiter]

Yes, yes they did.

[Quole]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm almost certain that Tali flat out says the Geth killed billions of Quarians in the elevator conversations of the first game.

And In the second game Legion himself even admits "We did them great harm during the Morning War."

That's really all there is to it, in my mind.

Actually in the conversation with Shep aboard the Normandy she says "millions upon millions", not "billions". Here is a link to the video. (the comment I quoted is near the end of the video, at aprx 9 mins)

It is also interesting, as you watch this video, to take note of the logic process Tali uses to explain the decision to exterminate the Geth. Here is a breakdown of how it plays out in that conversation:

1. We saw that the Geth were now exhibiting self-awareness and independent thought and realized that the Geth had achieved sentience.

2. We had created them to be a labor force for mindless or dangerous tasks.

3. We knew that a sentient race would not be content in that role for very long, since it would constitute slavery.

4. We knew that they would therefore rebel against being forced into that role.

5. So to prevent that slave rebellion we sent out a general order across our whole civilization to exterminate them all simultaneously.

6. It was the only choice we had, because by launching a sudden, simultaneous genocidal attack we were preventing a later war of revolution by our newly sentient slaves.

Nowhere in her reasoning process does it occur to her that they could have simply freed the Geth who had become sentient and allowed them to choose for themselves. That, too, would have prevented a slave rebellion because there would no longer have been any slaves to rebel. But apparently no option between "mindless, obedient slaves" or "completely exterminated former slaves" was on the table.

I think part of the reason the Quarians did that was so they could `cover up` the fact that they made AIs, which is against the law. Just saying they may have been more justified than you were saying. Of course I still think they made the wrong decision, unfortunately.

[Pro_Consul]

General User wrote...

Quarian immune systems! ARRGH! Not weak by nature, Weak at fighting off infections, weak at countering pathogens. Adaptive by nature.  

Actually the Codex says quite the opposite:

Quarian immune systems have always been relatively weak, as pathogenic microbes were comparatively rare in their homeworld's biosphere.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 07 février 2011 - 02:30 .

[Quole]

Nightwriter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It is hard for me to see a retaliatory act as genocide.

Unless we're talking about Rwanda. So perhaps I should rephrase.

It is hard for me to see an act inspired by self-defense as genocide.

So if in 1945 the Allies had proceeded to slaughter 99% of the populations of Germany and Japan, you wouldn't see it as genocide?

Were the Allied powers newly dawning consciousnesses with an emotionless perception of reality who likely had no real grasp of murder or death? And had Germany attempted mass genocide on the Americans, Brits, Frenchmen, Italians and Russians combined?

CONTEXT KA-CHA!

That still dosnt change the fact that its genocide. It could be justified genocide, but genocide nonetheless.

[CaptainZaysh]

Nightwriter wrote...
CONTEXT KA-CHA!

I don't get it.  Do we agree that genocide (more properly xenocide, I guess, but in the sense it's used on this forum) is the systematic destruction of a sentient race?

The geth obviously committed that on the quarians.  I can see how you could call it justifiable genocide, but to claim it's not genocide at all just baffles me.  Explain, damn you.

EDIT: gah.  ninja'd, by a much pithier poster.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 07 février 2011 - 02:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

My only worry is that after such a long occupation of the Geth Idk what it will look like. Maybe it would look completely synthetic, but I don't want the Geth either way.

Legion says they've actualy cleaned up much of the polution, and don't swell on the planets themselves.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

They aren't friendly in the slightest.

Shepard's fanboy. Legion is a walking proof of the opposite.

The truth is, the Geth indeed have no reason to be hostile towards organics, since they don't need anything the organics have or need. The Heretics decision to join Sovereign, might have had something to do with the fact that their only experience with the organics consisted of the acts of unprovoked aggression towards them.

As far as I can tell, the Geth can become the most valuable ally for any race (government) if it's based on "mind own business" approach.

The Geth have proven resistant to the attempts of controlling them directly via crude methods, but demonstrate some kind of religious mindset. Which was exploited by Sovereign and allowed it to control a portion of Geth quite effectively. The same can be attempted with the rest of the Geth. Humanity can be presented as a more "kind" race to them, that can give them a "purpose in life". This may be the best way to control them.

[Slayer299]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Okay, if that is the logical method you wish to employ in this discussion, then apply it to your own case:

Quarians not surviving does not = Quarians all being systematically exterminated by Geth.

We'll you're quite right to call me on that, it was incorrect in my statement to use that phrase of 'systematically exterminated' about that. However, it still does not remove the more than likelihood that the Geth were involved in removing more than a significant portion of the Quarian population however. The Geth are not and never were innocents who could do no wrong and that the Quarians eliminated their own population due to them bombing themselves into the stone age with WMD's. 

It is clear that during the MW billions died, that cannot be refuted by you. The fact that the Geth were highly involved in that is not only probably, but more than likely. At that point for the Geth they were logically reacting only a level of "threat" and "removal of threat", not 'we'll just defend ourselves only.'

[Nightwriter]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I don't get it.  Do we agree that genocide (more properly xenocide, I guess, but in the sense it's used on this forum) is the systematic destruction of a sentient race?

The geth obviously committed that on the quarians.  I can see how you could call it justifiable genocide, but to claim it's not genocide at all just baffles me.  Explain, damn you.

EDIT: gah.  ninja'd, by a much pithier poster.

Why, because like with all things, it is the emotional connotation we care about.

The geth committed the technical definition of genocide, but not the emotional definition of it. Worth noting, considering genocide is an emotionally charged word, calling to mind such notions as human rights violations, injustice, and discrimination.

[White_Buffalo94]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

My only worry is that after such a long occupation of the Geth Idk what it will look like. Maybe it would look completely synthetic, but I don't want the Geth either way.

Legion says they've actualy cleaned up much of the polution, and don't swell on the planets themselves.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

They aren't friendly in the slightest.

Shepard's fanboy. Legion is a walking proof of the opposite.

The truth is, the Geth indeed have no reason to be hostile towards organics, since they don't need anything the organics have or need. The Heretics decision to join Sovereign, might have had something to do with the fact that their only experience with the organics consisted of the acts of unprovoked aggression towards them.

As far as I can tell, the Geth can become the most valuable ally for any race (government) if it's based on "mind own business" approach.

The Geth have proven resistant to the attempts of controlling them directly via crude methods, but demonstrate some kind of religious mindset. Which was exploited by Sovereign and allowed it to control a portion of Geth quite effectively. The same can be attempted with the rest of the Geth. Humanity can be presented as a more "kind" race to them, that can give them a "purpose in life". This may be the best way to control them.

Well I suppose Legion is not hostile because they know Shepard is a valuable ally. Otherwise, freighters and trade ships traveling through Geth space are attacked on sight.
I do however agree with you that they are the most valuable ally in any fight. They need no support whatsoever to fight, no urges, nothing. However, it does not change my opinion that they should be eradicated. I don't think they deserve to exist for what they did to the Quarians, and that sounds harsh, yes, but I see it as them being objects, not truly alive

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm almost certain that Tali flat out says the Geth killed billions of Quarians in the elevator conversations of the first game.

And In the second game Legion himself even admits "We did them great harm during the Morning War."

That's really all there is to it, in my mind.

Actually in the conversation with Shep aboard the Normandy she says "millions upon millions", not "billions". Here is a link to the video. (the comment I quoted is near the end of the video, at aprx 9 mins)

That's not the part of the game I'm talking about. On the Citadel, in th elevator conversations, when talking with either Kaidan or Ashley, I'm farily certain Tali mentions "The geth killed billions of quarians and drove us into exile."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 février 2011 - 04:19 .