349 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

My only worry is that after such a long occupation of the Geth Idk what it will look like. Maybe it would look completely synthetic, but I don't want the Geth either way.

Legion says they've actualy cleaned up much of the polution, and don't swell on the planets themselves.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

They aren't friendly in the slightest.

Shepard's fanboy. Legion is a walking proof of the opposite.

The truth is, the Geth indeed have no reason to be hostile towards organics, since they don't need anything the organics have or need. The Heretics decision to join Sovereign, might have had something to do with the fact that their only experience with the organics consisted of the acts of unprovoked aggression towards them.

As far as I can tell, the Geth can become the most valuable ally for any race (government) if it's based on "mind own business" approach.

The Geth have proven resistant to the attempts of controlling them directly via crude methods, but demonstrate some kind of religious mindset. Which was exploited by Sovereign and allowed it to control a portion of Geth quite effectively. The same can be attempted with the rest of the Geth. Humanity can be presented as a more "kind" race to them, that can give them a "purpose in life". This may be the best way to control them.

Well I suppose Legion is not hostile because they know Shepard is a valuable ally. Otherwise, freighters and trade ships traveling through Geth space are attacked on sight.
I do however agree with you that they are the most valuable ally in any fight. They need no support whatsoever to fight, no urges, nothing. However, it does not change my opinion that they should be eradicated. I don't think they deserve to exist for what they did to the Quarians, and that sounds harsh, yes, but I see it as them being objects, not truly alive

One of my Sheps feels that way because the Heretic Geth killed Kaidan. He thinks that if all they need is one of them to be infected with a virus for them to turn on you its too dangerous to have them around. Legion is a smart puppy, but any second he could kill you without batting an eye if he was given a virus. Kind of makes it hard for you to turn your back on him.

[Zulu_DFA]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Well I suppose Legion is not hostile because they know Shepard is a valuable ally. Otherwise, freighters and trade ships traveling through Geth space are attacked on sight.

If you mean the MSV Cornucopia, specifically it had the "Dragon Teeth" aboard, so all ther reason to believe it was Reaper/Heretic -related, and that they we had doomed long before they reached the Perseus Veil.

If you mean other incidents, by their mention in the Codex and by Tali we can't really dtetermine their nature. If they were Quarians, that only means they were hostile by default. If they were other races, nothing says they couldn't provoke the Geth into action. If it was shortly after the Geth rebellion, well, too bad the Geth knew only war with the organics, and maybe at that point they couldn't even distinquish between the faction of the organics, or even have an idea that the organics are mostly individuals with consciousness separated from each other.

Then the Geth space was quarantined, and that means nobody was authorized to venture there, unless it was some STG spy mission (and that means hostile to the Geth).

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

I do however agree with you that they are the most valuable ally in any fight. They need no support whatsoever to fight, no urges, nothing. However, it does not change my opinion that they should be eradicated. I don't think they deserve to exist for what they did to the Quarians, and that sounds harsh, yes, but I see it as them being objects, not truly alive

Personally, I am on the fence if they can be considered a form of life. Either way (an equal race, or autonomous toasters), that doesn't mean they can't be treated as allies, or have to be passed up for the sake of such a failure of a race the Quarians insist on being.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 février 2011 - 04:49 .

[GuardianAngel470]

James2912 wrote...

I would agree with your above post, however I would say they definitely overreacted. Killing quarian children, old people excettera is definitely a war crime. However the Quarian leaders are as despicable in that they wanted to destroy the Geth. However I doubt the Quarian children that were murdered had a say on whether to kill the Geth.

I don't think they overreacted. Think of it this way, if it can be assumed that the recording Legion plays of the first Geth to scare the Quarians with talk of souls took place within ten years of the Start of the Morning War then most likely they didn't have the needed intellingence to find another solution.

They also likely lacked a basic understanding of organic life, as evidenced by Legion's confusion regarding their decisions even 300 years later. With that in mind, they likely couldn't distinguish between the threats posed by children, men, and women or how the act of killing them would affect the war. They probably couldn't even tell that each quarian was independent, their understanding of sentience was too limited.

They were both stupid and ignorant at the time of the morning war and reacted exactly as any being of that level could be expected to react.

However, it was still Genocide. It was the systematic destruction of a species, whether out of malice or self defense is irrelevant, but no less so than the Quarian's attempted Genocide.

I take some wisdom from Mordin on this one, I'd never try and exterminate a species capable of calculus.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 07 février 2011 - 04:55 .

[Bluko]

Well both the Geth and Quarians committed genocide against each other. The Quarians intended to destroy all the Geth or at least leave so few remaining that they could no longer maintain sentience and could take full control of them again. The Geth intended to kill as many Quarians until they no longer had the will or capacity to continue fighting them. Obviously the Geth were a lot more successful in their genocide.

So yes they did commit genocide, though if you're enemy is trying to exterminate you I'd say it's fair to retaliate in similar fashion. If both species do manage to make peace they'll both have to make reparations for their war crimes. though that kind of goes without saying.

Modifié par Bluko, 07 février 2011 - 05:05 .

[BrotherBeavis14]

The whole problem here is that we are looking at the actions of the Geth as a race that has experienced genocide. We don't look at it from their view. At the beginning of their consciousness it would seem they were like an infant that has no knowledge of the world and fumbles in their ignorance. They have no meaning to the word genocide because they have not experienced it and don't know what it is. Now in a society that has morals and laws is joined by a new "race" such as the Geth and have no comprehension of these morals and laws are being attacked by their creators they will not act in the way of those that created those laws. With that stated the Geth obviously didn't know what they were doing was wrong by organic standards that follow a certain set of morals until after they started to comprehend organic morals. So with the Geth having no comprehension of organic morals or society they would no doubt not see the difference of civilian or soldier as they do not understand the difference that the creator's society has built. It's like having a new kid on the block that doesn't know any of the rules and breaks one not knowing the consequences. I'm not saying what they did was right but we look at it like they were made conscious knowing all the rules and morals of the galaxy. It's a matter of understanding not blaming.

[James2912]

yeah meanwhile the baby has killed billions.

[BrotherBeavis14]

James2912 wrote...

yeah meanwhile the baby has killed billions.

[Slayer299]

BrotherBeavis14 wrote...

The whole problem here is that we are looking at the actions of the Geth as a race that has experienced genocide. We don't look at it from their view. At the beginning of their consciousness it would seem they were like an infant that has no knowledge of the world and fumbles in their ignorance. They have no meaning to the word genocide because they have not experienced it and don't know what it is. Now in a society that has morals and laws is joined by a new "race" such as the Geth and have no comprehension of these morals and laws are being attacked by their creators they will not act in the way of those that created those laws. With that stated the Geth obviously didn't know what they were doing was wrong by organic standards that follow a certain set of morals until after they started to comprehend organic morals. So with the Geth having no comprehension of organic morals or society they would no doubt not see the difference of civilian or soldier as they do not understand the difference that the creator's society has built. It's like having a new kid on the block that doesn't know any of the rules and breaks one not knowing the consequences. I'm not saying what they did was right but we look at it like they were made conscious knowing all the rules and morals of the galaxy. It's a matter of understanding not blaming.

I'm not sure how you can say that the Geth have both experienced genocide and never experiecned it. It's usually not possible for both.

Even with your statement that the Geth do not understand the rules/consequences of their actions, how does this absolve them of any responsibility? A baby that could go on a killing spree (if such a thing were possible) would still be guilty of commiting murder woujld it not? Now knowing a law does not make a person exempt from consequences is how I see it.

[James2912]

Ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable defense in court.

[AkiKishi]

Slayer299 wrote...

I'm not sure how you can say that the Geth have both experienced genocide and never experiecned it. It's usually not possible for both.

Even with your statement that the Geth do not understand the rules/consequences of their actions, how does this absolve them of any responsibility? A baby that could go on a killing spree (if such a thing were possible) would still be guilty of commiting murder woujld it not? Now knowing a law does not make a person exempt from consequences is how I see it.

 Legally, no.

That's why children who commit murder are treated differently to adults.

[GuardianAngel470]

Bluko wrote...

Well both the Geth and Quarians committed genocide against each other. The Quarians intended to destroy all the Geth or at least leave so few remaining that they could no longer maintain sentience and could take full control of them again. The Geth intended to kill as many Quarians until they no longer had the will or capacity to continue fighting them. Obviously the Geth were a lot more successful in their genocide.

So yes they did commit genocide, though if you're enemy is trying to exterminate you I'd say it's fair to retaliate in similar fashion. If both species do manage to make peace they'll both have to make reparations for their war crimes. though that kind of goes without saying.

Hmm, reparations. Well the Geth already have that covered, they've essentially cleaned up and possibly rebuilt Rannoch and her colonies, making it the perfect reparation to give a homeless species.

Quarian's don't really have much and I don't actually think the geth would ask for anything. They probably wouldn't feel like they needed any sort of reparation.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 07 février 2011 - 05:49 .

[GuardianAngel470]

James2912 wrote...

Ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable defense in court.

Ignorance of the law? No. Ignorance of the situation? Yes, to a degree. Someone who kills an undercover cop to protect someone they thought was helpless would indeed get a different sentence than one who knows the person is an undercover cop and kills him anyway.

And intent has long, long been factored in to punishment. That's why there is first, second, and third degree murder as well as manslaughter.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 07 février 2011 - 05:53 .

[BrotherBeavis14]

Slayer299 wrote...

BrotherBeavis14 wrote...

The whole problem here is that we are looking at the actions of the Geth as a race that has experienced genocide. We don't look at it from their view. At the beginning of their consciousness it would seem they were like an infant that has no knowledge of the world and fumbles in their ignorance. They have no meaning to the word genocide because they have not experienced it and don't know what it is. Now in a society that has morals and laws is joined by a new "race" such as the Geth and have no comprehension of these morals and laws are being attacked by their creators they will not act in the way of those that created those laws. With that stated the Geth obviously didn't know what they were doing was wrong by organic standards that follow a certain set of morals until after they started to comprehend organic morals. So with the Geth having no comprehension of organic morals or society they would no doubt not see the difference of civilian or soldier as they do not understand the difference that the creator's society has built. It's like having a new kid on the block that doesn't know any of the rules and breaks one not knowing the consequences. I'm not saying what they did was right but we look at it like they were made conscious knowing all the rules and morals of the galaxy. It's a matter of understanding not blaming.

I'm not sure how you can say that the Geth have both experienced genocide and never experiecned it. It's usually not possible for both.

Even with your statement that the Geth do not understand the rules/consequences of their actions, how does this absolve them of any responsibility? A baby that could go on a killing spree (if such a thing were possible) would still be guilty of commiting murder woujld it not? Now knowing a law does not make a person exempt from consequences is how I see it.

I'm not saying that doesn't make them guilty I'm just throwing
another point of view out there to give a more light shedding idea on what the Geth could be thinking. I was making a connection to infants
because of their limited understanding of how the world works that related to the Geth being new to the galaxy. And my
first sentence about expierencing genocide was messed up. I meant to say
it like We(humanity) look at it as a race of people that expierieced genocide and know what it is but the Geth know neither of these.

[James2912]

Your kidding yourself if you think somebody who killed a undercover cop wouldn't get the death penalty or life in prison. But whatever, we disagree but this is off topic. so meh lets try and change the subject from real life.

[GuardianAngel470]

James2912 wrote...

Your kidding yourself if you think somebody who killed a undercover cop wouldn't get the death penalty or life in prison. But whatever, we disagree but this is off topic. so meh lets try and change the subject from real life.

Key word: Undercover. Think Thane's wife sort of situation only instead of stepping in front of a bullet they attack to protect whoever is being threatened and things escalate.

And it kinda is on topic because it factors in to whether the geth, as an ignorant and intellectually slow species should be afforded more benefit of the doubt when it came to their military policies than an advanced species like the Salarians or Humans.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 07 février 2011 - 06:01 .

[BrotherBeavis14]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Your kidding yourself if you think somebody who killed a undercover cop wouldn't get the death penalty or life in prison. But whatever, we disagree but this is off topic. so meh lets try and change the subject from real life.

Key word: Undercover. Think Thane's wife sort of situation only instead of stepping in front of a bullet they attack to protect whoever is being threatened and things escalate.

And it kinda is on topic because it factors in to whether the geth, as an ignorant and intellectually slow species should be afforded more benefit of the doubt when it came to their military policies than an advanced species like the Salarians or Humans.

Thank you.

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

yeah meanwhile the baby has killed billions.

Not according to Tali. Did you watch that video I linked a dozen or so posts back? In it Tali clearly says that "millions and millions" of Quarians died at the hands of the Geth, not billions.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That's not the part of the game I'm talking about. On the Citadel, in th elevator conversations, when talking with either Kaidan or Ashley, I'm farily certain Tali mentions "The geth killed billions of quarians and drove us into  exile."

Well, I don't recall that, but if true then you have found a huge inconsistency, since the link I posted clearly has her putting the number in the millions, not the billions. Have you searched Youtube for a vid on that convo?

Slayer299 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
Okay, if that is the logical method you wish to employ in this discussion, then apply it to your own case:

Quarians not surviving does not = Quarians all being systematically exterminated by Geth.

We'll you're quite right to call me on that, it was incorrect in my statement to use that phrase of 'systematically exterminated' about that. However, it still does not remove the more than likelihood that the Geth were involved in removing more than a significant portion of the Quarian population however. The Geth are not and never were innocents who could do no wrong and that the Quarians eliminated their own population due to them bombing themselves into the stone age with WMD's. 

It is clear that during the MW billions died, that cannot be refuted by you. The fact that the Geth were highly involved in that is not only probably, but more than likely. At that point for the Geth they were logically reacting only a level of "threat" and "removal of threat", not 'we'll just defend ourselves only.'

See above - we have Tali's statement that Geth-induced deaths numbered in the millions. That is certainly no inconsiderable number, but it's a very, VERY far cry from billions. In fact it cannot mathematically be stretched to even reach one half of the number of Quarians who died in that war.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 07 février 2011 - 06:10 .

[James2912]

Edited because I know if I take the bait and argue the point this thread is going downhill and will be closed fast. 

Modifié par James2912, 07 février 2011 - 06:45 .

[Zing Freelancer]

James2912 wrote...

I would agree with your above post, however I would say they definitely overreacted. Killing quarian children, old people excettera is definitely a war crime. However the Quarian leaders are as despicable in that they wanted to destroy the Geth. However I doubt the Quarian children that were murdered had a say on whether to kill the Geth.

There is no children in ME, at least if you dont count Vorcha.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

To be honest, yes, the Geth did commit genocide, in my opinion.

[James2912]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
perhaps the Quarians had become so dependant on the Geth before they rebelled, that they simply could not exist without their synthetic servants. The Geth could just watch how the Quarians were dying out and do nothing.

Which is probably why the Quarians freaked out when the Geth first rebelled. If the Quarians could live just as well without the Geth, why not just grant them freedom and let whichever Geth willing to continue serving the Quarians continue? Isn't giving up part of your property preferrable to death? It's the same reason why Romans crushed all the slave rebellions - they can't possibly maintain their lifestyle without the slaves and the whole socio-economic structure would collapse. It's a war for survival on both sides - that makes it the bloodiest of all wars.

yes it was the bloodies of all wars, a genocidal war both sides were attempting to exterminate the other one nearly succeeded i.e. Geth the other epically failed the Quarians. 

[Yakko77]

Given how little we know about the "Morning War" it seems clear the Geth regret for lack of  better term the result hence their actions as "caretaker" of the Quarian homeworld.  The Geth actions may have initially been in "self defense" but when it devolves into what can be literally describes as genocide, is it still "self defense"?  Again, we know too little about the war and how it progressed.  I'm almost certain there will be a way for the Quarians to negotiate the retaking of their homeworld without a fight in ME3 given what Legion said about being caretakers in a manner like Arlington National Cemerary.

[Zulu_DFA]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
perhaps the Quarians had become so dependant on the Geth before they rebelled, that they simply could not exist without their synthetic servants. The Geth could just watch how the Quarians were dying out and do nothing.

Which is probably why the Quarians freaked out when the Geth first rebelled. If the Quarians could live just as well without the Geth, why not just grant them freedom and let whichever Geth willing to continue serving the Quarians continue? Isn't giving up part of your property preferrable to death? It's the same reason why Romans crushed all the slave rebellions - they can't possibly maintain their lifestyle without the slaves and the whole socio-economic structure would collapse. It's a war for survival on both sides - that makes it the bloodiest of all wars.

No, that doesn't make much sense. "We can't live without them, so let's permanantly deactivate them." Even the Quarians aren't that stupid. The were syupid enough thoug to for the last resort option before exploring other options, and that means they could have been stupid enough to not realize that they couldn't live without the Geth.

However, I do not positively state that they couldn't live without the Geth. Maybe they could. But it's irrelevant since they could not deactivate them anyway.

The supposition that the Geth could possively have been unaware that the Quarians were individuals, lead to conclusion that they would indeed proceed with extermination of every last one quarian toddler.

Hell, this topic is actulally a lot more obscure than "How the genophage works?"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 février 2011 - 07:50 .

[Phaedon]

Bluko wrote...So yes they did commit genocide, though if you're enemy is trying to exterminate you I'd say it's fair to retaliate in similar fashion.

Certainly not. You don't commit genocide because 'Lol, they would do the same'.