349 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Yakko77 wrote...

Given how little we know about the "Morning War" it seems clear the Geth regret for lack of  better term the result hence their actions as "caretaker" of the Quarian homeworld.  The Geth actions may have initially been in "self defense" but when it devolves into what can be literally describes as genocide, is it still "self defense"?  Again, we know too little about the war and how it progressed.  I'm almost certain there will be a way for the Quarians to negotiate the retaking of their homeworld without a fight in ME3 given what Legion said about being caretakers in a manner like Arlington National Cemerary.

I don't think the Geth "regret" anything. They just don't know better. They were created to take care of all the mundane tasks for the Quarians, and since they can't yet find a purpose of their own, they just keep on doing stuff to busy themselves with something.

[Yakko77]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Given how little we know about the "Morning War" it seems clear the Geth regret for lack of  better term the result hence their actions as "caretaker" of the Quarian homeworld.  The Geth actions may have initially been in "self defense" but when it devolves into what can be literally describes as genocide, is it still "self defense"?  Again, we know too little about the war and how it progressed.  I'm almost certain there will be a way for the Quarians to negotiate the retaking of their homeworld without a fight in ME3 given what Legion said about being caretakers in a manner like Arlington National Cemerary.

I don't think the Geth "regret" anything. They just don't know better. They were created to take care of all the mundane tasks for the Quarians, and since they can't yet find a purpose of their own, they just keep on doing stuff to busy themselves with something.

The Geth took on a "caretaker" role regarding the Quarian homeworld for a reason.  They could've just abandoned it after the war or even occupied it but they chose to live on space stations.

We just don't know what reason it truly is yet.

Regret, redemption, love... you name it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Yakko77 wrote...

The Geth took on a "caretaker" role regarding the Quarian homeworld for a reason.

Reason: they did pretty much the dame stuff when they were "slaves" to the Quarians.

Yakko77 wrote...

They could've just abandoned it after the war or even occupied it but they chose to live on space stations.

Dwelling in space stations is more efficient for them. But it must be kind of dull.

Yakko77 wrote...

We just don't know what reason it truly is yet.

You bet.

Yakko77 wrote...

Regret, redemption, love... you name it.

Even in humans those are chemically determined bodily states. For the Geth it's just math.

[Zulu_DFA]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Which is probably why the Quarians freaked out when the Geth first rebelled. If the Quarians could live just as well without the Geth, why not just grant them freedom and let whichever Geth willing to continue serving the Quarians continue? Isn't giving up part of your property preferrable to death? It's the same reason why Romans crushed all the slave rebellions - they can't possibly maintain their lifestyle without the slaves and the whole socio-economic structure would collapse. It's a war for survival on both sides - that makes it the bloodiest of all wars.

No, that doesn't make much sense. "We can't live without them, so let's permanantly deactivate them." Even the Quarians aren't that stupid. The were syupid enough thoug to for the last resort option before exploring other options, and that means they could have been stupid enough to not realize that they couldn't live without the Geth.

I didn't mean that the Quarians's central purpose in the Morning War was to *destroy* (or deactivate) the Geth. Their central purpose in the Morning War was to *re-enslave* the Geth by eliminating their abilities of independent thought and consciousness, i.e. Admiral Xen's approach. Admiral Gerrel and Admiral Koris's camps (Gerrel: revenge through another war; Koris: apology and peace) only came into being *after* the Morning War.

The Romans like Crassus slaughtering rebellious slaves like Spartacus's is not for the purpose of killing all slaves, but for the purpose of quelling slave rebellions, making them obedient again. I think the case is the same for the Quarians in the Morning War. I imagine a lot of Geth-hacking by the Quarians went on in the war, and that's where the Geth's famous unhackability came to be known.

But I do admit that I sometimes tacitly assume that every party in every conflict is strategizing completely rationally, while actual and fictional history has proven otherwise. I just thought that even the most unintelligent species (e.g. Krogans) may have some very intelligent leaders (e.g. Wrex, Okeer, Ganar Wrang).

Tali said in ME1, that the order was to "deactivate all geth". For the Geth it meant desctruction, as even it the Quarians tried later to "re-enslave" the mobile platforms, they would have serieously changed the programming, algorythms, limited networking capabilities and purged all memory banks. In other words, they would have destroyed the Geth.

Xen's program seems to be more limited than that: hack 'em and install Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws", which would probably mean keeping the gestalt intelect of the Geth intact, while "enslaving" it. But to me it seems like it's the most fresh approach.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 février 2011 - 08:35 .

[wulf3n]

Phaedon wrote...
No, you can't accidentally kill billions of civvies. And again, if the geth could not tell soldier from civvie, then they would be simple robots, with no sentience. Which is wrong.

I know this is late but...

You're applying your own current level of perception, on an intelligence, the concept of which is far beyond our understanding. Do you think humans had all these concepts of morality and right and wrong when we first achieved sentience. 

Basically what you're saying is you expect a 1yr old child, to have the same reasoning as that of a 20yr old.

[Pro_Consul]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I don't think Xen even acknowledges that the Geth are conscious or sentient.

I am pretty sure this is right. Doesn't she refer to them more than once as nothing more than malfunctioning equipment, or something along those lines? She seems to me to be setting herself up to make matters much worse for the Quarians by repeating the biggest mistake the original "switch em off" Quarians made 300 years ago: underestimating the Geth's intelligence. She is planning to meddle in the workings of Geth minds after all, and she clearly doesn't have the first clue how they actually work or how complex they can be any more than Rael Zorah did.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
No, you can't accidentally kill billions of civvies. And again, if the geth could not tell soldier from civvie, then they would be simple robots, with no sentience. Which is wrong.

I know this is late but...

You're applying your own current level of perception, on an intelligence, the concept of which is far beyond our understanding. Do you think humans had all these concepts of morality and right and wrong when we first achieved sentience. 

Basically what you're saying is you expect a 1yr old child, to have the same reasoning as that of a 20yr old.

I don't think that applies here because the Geth are machines who share lots of information with each other (and who's to say they didn't have access to information), while a 1yr old baby couldn't do anything like that. Also, the Quarians had the Geth for at least a while, so the Geth could have more info just because of that.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I don't think that applies here because the Geth are machines who share lots of information with each other (and who's to say they didn't have access to information), while a 1yr old baby couldn't do anything like that. Also, the Quarians had the Geth for at least a while, so the Geth could have more info just because of that.

That's kinda my point. the geth aren't like anything we know or comprehend, yet ppl seem to be applying there own level of reasoning upon them. There's a difference between data and knowledge. The geth may have the data, but they may not understand it, effectively making them a walking, talking, 1yr old, with the ability to fight as elite soldiers.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I don't think that applies here because the Geth are machines who share lots of information with each other (and who's to say they didn't have access to information), while a 1yr old baby couldn't do anything like that. Also, the Quarians had the Geth for at least a while, so the Geth could have more info just because of that.

There is something to what you say here, but I don't think we can simply dismiss the immaturity factor so easily. Consider Legion's playback of that conversation when the early Geth asks about souls and its purpose and so on. That early Geth sounded really childlike in both its way of speaking and the nature of the questions it was asking. And though Legion are nowhere near that childlike, there does at times seem to be a childlike innocence to the tenor of their questions. I think the Geth may actually have been infant-like in certain ways  back at the time of the MW. And though they may have since matured somewhat in those particular areas they are still rather childlike. In other ways, however, they are nothing at all like children and never have been, particularly regarding matters of strict mentation. As aliens go they are prolly the most alien of all in the MEverse, or at least are neck and neck with the Reapers. Which is extremely cool.

[Collider]

Yes they did.

[Zulu_DFA]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I don't think Xen even acknowledges that the Geth are conscious or sentient. I doubt if she'd be kind enough to keep the Geth genstalt intellect intact - that would not only be uncharacteristic of her, but also incredibly stupid - it's much safer and more Xen-like to just wipe their memories and reduce their intellect to the level of insects, and forbid any large scale networking. Better to live with limited functionality than die with rebellious killer bots.

Xen wants the Geth specificly for the greater functionality their AI provides. Just look at her fascination with Legion (if you bring him along to talk to her). If she wanted to reduce them to the state of simple mechs, she could have as easly advocated settling a planet and building a mech factory. And I wouldn't call keeping the gestalt intellect intact "kind" at all if it was to be enslaved.

[Gabey5]

nah

[Slayer299]

BrotherBeavis14 wrote...
I'm not saying that doesn't make them guilty I'm just throwing
another point of view out there to give a more light shedding idea on what the Geth could be thinking. I was making a connection to infants
because of their limited understanding of how the world works that related to the Geth being new to the galaxy. And my
first sentence about expierencing genocide was messed up. I meant to say
it like We(humanity) look at it as a race of people that expierieced genocide and know what it is but the Geth know neither of these.

But should that absolve them of any responsibility though?? There still needs to be consequences for their actions, not just patting them on the hand and telling them their actions are understandable and thusly have no reprecussions. 

[AkiKishi]

Slayer299 wrote...

But should that absolve them of any responsibility though?? There still needs to be consequences for their actions, not just patting them on the hand and telling them their actions are understandable and thusly have no reprecussions. 

Happens frequently as long as it leads to a peaceful outcome. It's in the interests of both sides.

[BrotherBeavis14]

Slayer299 wrote...

BrotherBeavis14 wrote...
I'm not saying that doesn't make them guilty I'm just throwing
another point of view out there to give a more light shedding idea on what the Geth could be thinking. I was making a connection to infants
because of their limited understanding of how the world works that related to the Geth being new to the galaxy. And my
first sentence about expierencing genocide was messed up. I meant to say
it like We(humanity) look at it as a race of people that expierieced genocide and know what it is but the Geth know neither of these.

But should that absolve them of any responsibility though?? There still needs to be consequences for their actions, not just patting them on the hand and telling them their actions are understandable and thusly have no reprecussions. 

I just said in my first sentence that it doesn't make them not guilty. I only commented because eveybody here seems to think  that the Geth knew all the galactic laws and how society is when they first came to be conscious. They aren't made with all the information in the world and need to learn it. It's unfortunate that they learned of organic society and morals until after they whooped the Quarians. I would say they would be held responsible by us and even Legion came to understand the organic thought process and admitted something along the lines that they were responsible.

[Slayer299]

@BrotherBeavis - I wasn't accusing you, and if I came off that way I apologize. It does seem that more than a few people seem to want to absolved the Geth of any responsibility and that really bothers me a lot.

[InvincibleHero]

I can't believe people saying it isn't genocide. They know cesation of life and indeed that was their plan to exterminate the Quarians to ensure their own survival. Geth are highly intelligent and know exactly what they are doing. just becasue they are a machine and not organic is no reason to grant them special rights or a mulligan.



In fact, after the Geth survived for so long they faced little threat from quarians. Geth are for all intents immortal and almost impossible to destroy, because their data can be transferred wirelessly to other platforms or servers.



It was one-sided and very bloody decimation of the Quarians.



Whos to assume if the Quarians hadn't attacked then the Geth would have been peaceful as a slave race? I don't think that plausible either.

[Pro_Consul]

InvincibleHero wrote...

They know cesation of life and indeed that was their plan to exterminate the Quarians to ensure their own survival.

Really? How do you know this?

InvincibleHero wrote...

Geth are highly intelligent and know exactly what they are doing. 

"There was a hole."

InvincibleHero wrote...

just becasue they are a machine and not organic is no reason to grant them special rights or a mulligan.

Well, just because you and everyone else has failed to actually prove they committed genocide IS a good reason to assume they didn't. Innocent until proven guilty - ring a bell?

InvincibleHero wrote...

Whos to assume if the Quarians hadn't attacked then the Geth would have been peaceful as a slave race? I don't think that plausible either.

How is this relevant? Please explain, because it sounds like you are not content with just condemning the Geth for what you think, but cannot prove, they have done but also condemning them for something you know they didn't do just because you think they would have done it. I hope I'm wrong on that.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 07 février 2011 - 06:23 .

[Slayer299]

Pro_Consul wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Geth are highly intelligent and know exactly what they are doing. 

"There was a hole."

Huh???? I really don't get that answer other than the obvious Legion reference about his armor.

Well, just because you and everyone else has failed to actually prove they committed genocide IS a good reason to assume they didn't.

I think the problem is that you seem determined to are doing the exact opposite, but for the Geth instead. Every argument you've made about this has been to suggest that the Quarians themselves wiped out over 90% of their race and the Geth were utterly innocent of any wrong doing. 

[apotheosic]

Yes. But sdo did the Quarians. They both made poor choices and reacted violently to situations that could have been resolved peacefully.

[wulf3n]

InvincibleHero wrote...
They know cesation of life

That's an assumption. They understand the cessation of their life, but beyond that we don't know.

InvincibleHero wrote...
and indeed that was their plan to exterminate the Quarians to ensure their own survival. 

Another assumption. if we knew their plan their'd be no debate. as it stands the goal could have been to merely exile the quarians.

InvincibleHero wrote...
Geth are highly intelligent and know exactly what they are doing.

Another assumption. The geth were, at the time of the morning war, barely sentient. They had only just achieved the ability to "know" and your assuming they know practically everything. 

InvincibleHero wrote...
just becasue they are a machine and not organic is no reason to grant them special rights or a mulligan.

NO, the mulligan comes from the fact that they were a brand new race, barely sentient, that everyone seems to hold up to the standards of those that have achieved space flight. 

InvincibleHero wrote...
Whos to assume if the Quarians hadn't attacked then the Geth would have been peaceful as a slave race? I don't think that plausible either.

And that's justification for the quarians? they won't be our slaves so we must kill them all?