349 réponses à ce sujet

[Pro_Consul]

Slayer299 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Geth are highly intelligent and know exactly what they are doing. 

"There was a hole."

Huh???? I really don't get that answer other than the obvious Legion reference about his armor.

Legion is providing evidence they very well may not know their own motivation in this. It is the only time we see Legion stumble for and ultimately be unable to provide an answer to a direct question. This argues that Legion does not know the answer. And since the question was about why Legion had made a particular choice, that further argues that Legion is unaware of their own motivation. This is NOT the mindset of a race for whom "know(ing) exactly what they are doing" is a defining characteristic.

Well, just because you and everyone else has failed to actually prove they committed genocide IS a good reason to assume they didn't.

I think the problem is that you seem determined to are doing the exact opposite, but for the Geth instead. Every argument you've made about this has been to suggest that the Quarians themselves wiped out over 90% of their race and the Geth were utterly innocent of any wrong doing. 

Those were not arguments. They were hypotheses. You see, I know the difference between fact and supposition. I never claimed that the Quarians had wiped themselves out. I merely pointed out that that possibility exists, and indeed has more evidence to support its likelihood than anyone has shown to support the likelihood that the Geth systematically exterminated them. Actually, nobody has yet shown ANY evidence to support the claim that the Geth systematically exterminated the Quarians.

The entire genocide case against the Geth amounts to this: the Quarians started a war against the Geth; at the start of that war the Quarian population in the billions; afterwards it was 17 million, therefore the Geth are guilty of systematically exterminating billions of Quarians. Nowhere in there does anyone account for any other possible ways the Quarian population might have died. If Quarians died, then naturally it must have been the result of a systematic extermination campaign by the Geth - that is so NOT logical it makes me wanna spit.

[LordShrike]

Any moral code falls short on this.Simple really, they cannot be understood on "human" terms. Why? Because they are not even biological beings. They do not exist in any "slot" in human experience. So, did they kill a lot of people? Yes. Did they commit genocide? No.

When facing extinction, any excuse is forgivable.

Is Shepard just gonna give up because it would include genocide?

Reapers are Sentient too you know.

That could easily be used to give context to MW.

[Slayer299]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Those were not arguments. They were hypotheses. You see, I know the difference between fact and supposition. I never claimed that the Quarians had wiped themselves out. I merely pointed out that that possibility exists, and indeed has more evidence to support its likelihood than anyone has shown to support the likelihood that the Geth systematically exterminated them. Actually, nobody has yet shown ANY evidence to support the claim that the Geth systematically exterminated the Quarians.

The entire genocide case against the Geth amounts to this: the Quarians started a war against the Geth; at the start of that war the Quarian population in the billions; afterwards it was 17 million, therefore the Geth are guilty of systematically exterminating billions of Quarians. Nowhere in there does anyone account for any other possible ways the Quarian population might have died. If Quarians died, then naturally it must have been the result of a systematic extermination campaign by the Geth - that is so NOT logical it makes me wanna spit.

I've already said that my use of the phrase of 'systematic exterminated' was possibly extreme especially without evidence of such. However, I maintain that it is just as unlikely that the Quarians wiped themselves out as you maintain through your hypothesis that it must be so. You keep stating that it is more logical that the Quarians wiped themselves out than admitting it is more than possible that the Geth did actually kill a good percentage of the entire Quarian population or did much to the Quarians at all.

[darth_lopez]

I would say no the geth were re-acting to Quarian Aggression, They defended themselves, i find it more likely that they viewed every quarian as hostile as it wasn't necessarily soley the military forces trying to kill them. I would guess there were many many privately owned geth Platforms and i'm certain many Owners tried to kill they're synthetic Friend but failed Resulting in the insnaley High death Toll. Most 'intended' civillian casualties probably happened at the onset. And i'm sure most were accidental casualties from IEDs, and massive urban combat with most not having anywhere else to go. i doubt there goal was to wipe out the creators. If it was why not just shoot the ships down and destroy shipyards to prevent escape? I'm sure that the quarian military bombarded various locals in which geth were concentrated, killing far more civillian refugees than Synthetic Soldiers. assuming Refugees we allowed safe haven.

Don't forget quarians are fragile critters in ME

EDIT:
try looking at it from Our POV of our planet. IN all honesty if you are a US citizen and we're about to be wiped out by another country do you think we would hesitate to launch a nuclear offensive against our enemy to save ourselves if condemning the rest of the world? The answer is we wouldn't Most of us weould agree if we are going down and the enemy has no intention of a peaceful resolution we will take Them all With us.  Widening the scale imagine an alien invation. The moment we started to show signs of losing and potentially being enslaved or exterminated all nuclear armed countries would launch their stock piles. Simpply to kill as many of the bastards as we could before tehy take us out. It's likely Grounded Quarians did the same.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 07 février 2011 - 07:45 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Slayer299 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Geth are highly intelligent and know exactly what they are doing. 

"There was a hole."

Huh???? I really don't get that answer other than the obvious Legion reference about his armor.

Well, just because you and everyone else has failed to actually prove they committed genocide IS a good reason to assume they didn't.

I think the problem is that you seem determined to are doing the exact opposite, but for the Geth instead. Every argument you've made about this has been to suggest that the Quarians themselves wiped out over 90% of their race and the Geth were utterly innocent of any wrong doing. 

No offense, but I think this, too.

[Melra]

darth_lopez wrote...

I would say no the geth were re-acting to Quarian Aggression, They defended themselves, i find it more likely that they viewed every quarian as hostile as it wasn't necessarily soley the military forces trying to kill them. I would guess there were many many privately owned geth Platforms and i'm certain many Owners tried to kill they're synthetic Friend but failed Resulting in the insnaley High death Toll. Most 'intended' civillian casualties probably happened at the onset. And i'm sure most were accidental casualties from IEDs, and massive urban combat with most not having anywhere else to go. i doubt there goal was to wipe out the creators. If it was why not just shoot the ships down and destroy shipyards to prevent escape? I'm sure that the quarian military bombarded various locals in which geth were concentrated, killing far more civillian refugees than Synthetic Soldiers. assuming Refugees we allowed safe haven.

Don't forget quarians are fragile critters in ME

EDIT:
try looking at it from Our POV of our planet. IN all honesty if you are a US citizen and we're about to be wiped out by another country do you think we would hesitate to launch a nuclear offensive against our enemy to save ourselves if condemning the rest of the world? The answer is we wouldn't Most of us weould agree if we are going down and the enemy has no intention of a peaceful resolution we will take Them all With us.  Widening the scale imagine an alien invation. The moment we started to show signs of losing and potentially being enslaved or exterminated all nuclear armed countries would launch their stock piles. Simpply to kill as many of the bastards as we could before tehy take us out. It's likely Grounded Quarians did the same.

This.


Also Legion says on Tali's loyalty mission, that only reason Geth haven't been attempting to make truce, is because each time Quarians have gotten some kind of advantage, they have attacked the Geth 100% of the time. So they have kept pushing Quarians back from their home territory to preserve their own kind. 

[Pro_Consul]

Slayer299 wrote...

I've already said that my use of the phrase of 'systematic exterminated' was possibly extreme especially without evidence of such.

I know. That is why I specifically used such words as "anyone" and "nobody" in that post. But you are by no means the only person to have used such terms (though you are the only one to recant), and there is no shortage of posters in this thread who are presuming the Geth to be guilty of genocide using exactly the reasoning I just outlined.

Slayer299 wrote...

However, I maintain that it is just as unlikely that the Quarians wiped themselves out as you maintain through your hypothesis that it must be so. You keep stating that it is more logical that the Quarians wiped themselves out than admitting it is more than possible that the Geth did actually kill a good percentage of the entire Quarian population or did much to the Quarians at all.

I didn't say it is more logical. Read what I wrote:

Pro_Consul wrote...
I merely pointed out that that possibility exists, and indeed has more evidence to support its likelihood than anyone has shown to support the likelihood that the Geth systematically exterminated them.

That is a subtle but crucial distinction. Basically what I am on about is the fact that nobody, not a single poster, is willing/able to post even a single piece of direct evidence in support of an accusation of genocide, yet a great many of them seem quite willing, even eager, to convict the Geth of that hideous crime anyway.

That said, I do believe it is more likely, based on the evidence, that the majority of Quarian deaths were NOT at the hands of the Geth. Tali pretty much says this when she tells Shep that the Geth killed "millions and millions" instead of saying the Geth killed "billions". Mathematically this means that if Tali is correct and accurate, then Geth-induced deaths MUST number BELOW 50% of total Quarian losses. Here is how I parse that:

1. Millions and millions is being assumed to mean "less than 1 billion", since if the actual number were a billion then Tali would presumably have used that word instead. After all, she was trying to portray how large a number of Quarians died at Geth hands, so she presumably would have used the largest round number she truthfully could.

2. We know that the total Quarian population went from the billions to only 17 million. That means that we can assume Quarian deaths numbered approximately 2 billion at the very least, and possibly billions more than that.

3. With 2 billion deaths and Geth credited with less than 1 billion of them, the Geth induced deaths must therefore number less than 50%.

And possibly a LOT less than 50%. After all, if 30 million Quarians had died at Geth hands, wouldn't Tali have said "tens of millions" instead of "millions and millions"? And if you do the math the other way, looking for the lower barrier that is, then you arrive at a lower limit of 2% of Quarian deaths being Geth induced (I will post the math if you need it). So, again assuming Tali is being reasonably accurate, the Geth were directly responsible for somewhere between 2% and 50% of the Quarian deaths which resulted from the MW. Is there room in there to make a case for genocide by the Geth? Certainly, provided you find and post some evidence to that effect. But is there are also room in there to make a case that the Geth did NOT commit genocide? Definitely. And since I am an "innocent until proven guilty" kinda dude, I take it ill that so many people are jumping to convict, but not a single one of them is willing and able to post evidence to support that verdict.

So, all that being said the questions I have for each of the people who voted "yes" to the OP's question is:

1. Do you have any evidence to back your guilty verdict?

2. If not, why are you so quick to convict when there is no proof of guilt?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 07 février 2011 - 08:09 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

I've already said that my use of the phrase of 'systematic exterminated' was possibly extreme especially without evidence of such.

I know. That is why I specifically used such words as "anyone" and "nobody" in that post. But you are by no means the only person to have used such terms (though you are the only one to recant), and there is no shortage of posters in this thread who are presuming the Geth to be guilty of genocide using exactly the reasoning I just outlined.

Slayer299 wrote...

However, I maintain that it is just as unlikely that the Quarians wiped themselves out as you maintain through your hypothesis that it must be so. You keep stating that it is more logical that the Quarians wiped themselves out than admitting it is more than possible that the Geth did actually kill a good percentage of the entire Quarian population or did much to the Quarians at all.

I didn't say it is more logical. Read what I wrote:

Pro_Consul wrote...
I merely pointed out that that possibility exists, and indeed has more evidence to support its likelihood than anyone has shown to support the likelihood that the Geth systematically exterminated them.

That is a subtle but crucial distinction. Basically what I am on about is the fact that nobody, not a single poster, is willing/able to post even a single piece of direct evidence in support of an accusation of genocide, yet a great many of them seem quite willing, even eager, to convict the Geth of that hideous crime anyway.

That said, I do believe it is more likely, based on the evidence, that the majority of Quarian deaths were NOT at the hands of the Geth. Tali pretty much says this when she tells Shep that the Geth killed "millions and millions" instead of saying the Geth killed "billions". Mathematically this means that if Tali is correct and accurate, then Geth-induced deaths MUST number BELOW 50% of total Quarian losses. Here is how I parse that:

1. Millions and millions is being assumed to mean "less than 1 billion", since if the actual number were a billion then Tali would presumably have used that word instead. After all, she was trying to portray how large a number of Quarians died at Geth hands, so she presumably would have used the largest round number she truthfully could.

2. We know that the total Quarian population went from the billions to only 17 million. That means that we can assume Quarian deaths numbered approximately 2 billion at the very least, and possibly billions more than that.

3. With 2 billion deaths and Geth credited with less than 1 billion of them, the Geth induced deaths must therefore number less than 50%.

And possibly a LOT less than 50%. After all, if 30 million Quarians had died at Geth hands, wouldn't Tali have said "tens of millions" instead of "millions and millions"? And if you do the math the other way, looking for the lower barrier that is, then you arrive at a lower limit of 2% of Quarian deaths being Geth induced (I will post the math if you need it). So, again assuming Tali is being reasonably accurate, the Geth were directly responsible for somewhere between 2% and 50% of the Quarian deaths which resulted from the MW. Is there room in there to make a case for genocide by the Geth? Certainly, provided you find and post some evidence to that effect. But is there are also room in there to make a case that the Geth did NOT commit genocide? Definitely. And since I am an "innocent until proven guilty" kinda dude, I take it ill that so many people are jumping to convict, but not a single one of them is willing and able to post evidence to support that verdict.

So, all that being said the questions I have for each of the people who voted "yes" to the OP's question is:

1. Do you have any evidence to back your guilty verdict?

2. If not, why are you so quick to convict when there is no proof of guilt?

Do you have any evidence to prove otherwise?

[LordShrike]

How many do you think actually had "Death by gunshot." as a cause of death?

And how many ships did the Quarians have? My guess is that majority of the losses was nothing more than circumstancial: Simply not enough ships to transport everyone. And then the losses from diseases due to unsanitary living conditions, Mutinies, Accidents.(And on, and on...) I think those would count for majority of casualties during, and directly after MW. Those gotta be counted in to total. I think that the Quarian population has actually increased greatly since MW.



And my original point stands: Any excuse is acceptable when facing extinction; No blame can be shouldered on the Geth, even when they pulled the trigger. Only ones responsible for Quarian deaths were the Quarians themselves. if they did not want to get a uprising on their hands they should have been smarter about it. And they are still doing it...

[James2912]

Murdering unarmed civilians, including woman and children is never excusable when done purposely. We don't know if the geth did this but its likely due to the population drop.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

LordShrike wrote...

How many do you think actually had "Death by gunshot." as a cause of death?
And how many ships did the Quarians have? My guess is that majority of the losses was nothing more than circumstancial: Simply not enough ships to transport everyone. And then the losses from diseases due to unsanitary living conditions, Mutinies, Accidents.(And on, and on...) I think those would count for majority of casualties during, and directly after MW. Those gotta be counted in to total. I think that the Quarian population has actually increased greatly since MW.

And my original point stands: Any excuse is acceptable when facing extinction; No blame can be shouldered on the Geth, even when they pulled the trigger. Only ones responsible for Quarian deaths were the Quarians themselves. if they did not want to get a uprising on their hands they should have been smarter about it. And they are still doing it...

So if a Geth trooper killed an unarmed civillian (Quarian or not, this is hypothetical, and it wasn't just Quarians that died) who wasn't doing anything, the Geth trooper can't be blamed?

[darth_lopez]

Melrache wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

I would say no the geth were re-acting to Quarian Aggression, They defended themselves, i find it more likely that they viewed every quarian as hostile as it wasn't necessarily soley the military forces trying to kill them. I would guess there were many many privately owned geth Platforms and i'm certain many Owners tried to kill they're synthetic Friend but failed Resulting in the insnaley High death Toll. Most 'intended' civillian casualties probably happened at the onset. And i'm sure most were accidental casualties from IEDs, and massive urban combat with most not having anywhere else to go. i doubt there goal was to wipe out the creators. If it was why not just shoot the ships down and destroy shipyards to prevent escape? I'm sure that the quarian military bombarded various locals in which geth were concentrated, killing far more civillian refugees than Synthetic Soldiers. assuming Refugees we allowed safe haven.

Don't forget quarians are fragile critters in ME

EDIT:
try looking at it from Our POV of our planet. IN all honesty if you are a US citizen and we're about to be wiped out by another country do you think we would hesitate to launch a nuclear offensive against our enemy to save ourselves if condemning the rest of the world? The answer is we wouldn't Most of us weould agree if we are going down and the enemy has no intention of a peaceful resolution we will take Them all With us.  Widening the scale imagine an alien invation. The moment we started to show signs of losing and potentially being enslaved or exterminated all nuclear armed countries would launch their stock piles. Simpply to kill as many of the bastards as we could before tehy take us out. It's likely Grounded Quarians did the same.

This.


Also Legion says on Tali's loyalty mission, that only reason Geth haven't been attempting to make truce, is because each time Quarians have gotten some kind of advantage, they have attacked the Geth 100% of the time. So they have kept pushing Quarians back from their home territory to preserve their own kind. 

thank you and you bring up an excellent point. to show another there is only 1 Quarian on the Admiralty bored who does not Favor war or re-invention of the Geth. This has lasted 300 years now and people wonder why the quarian population has declined so far.

We also forget in this instance to count deaths casued by panikced populace, ala "war of the worlds"where many americans thought, due to the radio broadcast, they needed to run and hide for their saftey due to the fictional alien invasion, Imagine what a real panick caused by Billions could do via Traffic jams Air Traffic control accidents. Military Evac losing contact due to jamming Orbital accidents Ship loss at space. Disease and Famine the first 100 years aboard ships. it is very likely that The populace has been widdled down to what they can now support after 300 years of drifting.

I doubt that there can be anyone cause that isn't Reaper invasion for Billions of dead quarians.

and again not once have Quarians attempted Peaceful Contact. If genocide was intended it would be ongoing. Furhtermore If it was intended Geth Could very easily have intercepted or Fired on with AA  fleaing evac ships in Orbit. the only reason that the population hasn't resbuilt and has instead stabalized at 17 mil is because they have no place to expand to.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


So if a Geth trooper killed
an unarmed civillian (Quarian or not, this is hypothetical, and it
wasn't just Quarians that died) who wasn't doing anything, the Geth
trooper can't be blamed?

I wouldn't say that he can't be blamed for an unethical kill from the civilian POV. But when it was the Civilians who initially Turned on you, because of a simple peaceful question mind you, Are you going to risk the safety of your fellow compratriots? Imagine being a soldier in the current war. It's not much different not all militants wear uniforms, something we see time and time again in wars, and the ones with no uniform are often the most dangerous.

Like wise i doubt the Quarians Spared any Geth that seemed Friendly...


Also if you disagree that any excuse is preferable to, or justified in the face of extinction Would you dissagree with Mass Nuclear Retaliation to the successful attacks , may i add attacks indicative of a human loss, of  a genocidal alien armada

In halo they started abducting children and training them to be super soldiers how far would you go to ensure special survival?

EDIT:

on the subject of non-quarian civilain casualties. Accidents happen. If the Geth trully went Genocidal Kill all Organics why is there a division in the populace? Reporters die while reporting on wars. It happens Bullets even in ME are not species/soldier seaking missles.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 07 février 2011 - 09:19 .

[LordShrike]

James2912 said:
"Murdering unarmed civilians, including woman and children is never excusable when done purposely. We don't know if the geth did this but its likely due to the population drop."
Ramirez Wolfen Said:
"So if a Geth trooper killed an unarmed civillian (Quarian or not, this is hypothetical, and it wasn't just Quarians that died) who wasn't doing anything, the Geth trooper can't be blamed?"

Don't know how to do that.. Thingie... Sorry!

Evacing civilians should be the first thing to do. My point is in this case that the whole civilization collapsed. Try going to get food in modern day without the infrastructure, you'll have serious problems. Think how hard it must have been for Quarians. And this did not happen in a heartbeat, you'll have looters, people going insane and all kinds of FUBAR happening around. Simple power outage could cause countless deaths, This being the future(kinda.).
And i'm guessing much of the infrastructure was Geth now that i think about it...
Only thing Geth should be concerning themselves in a situation like that would have been the ones actually trying to hurt them. That's gotta be the minority anyway you count it.

Modifié par LordShrike, 07 février 2011 - 09:10 .

[MercenaryRQ]

Kudos to what you wrote darth_lopez.

i never understood why the quarians only tried to kill them or get them back under control... and still do... (which i find worst) also it somehow reminds me on the guard at noveria in the labs in ME1 killing the rachni when he says that even animals know to not stick their nose where it hurts

[darth_lopez]

TY mercenary, I'm sure it seems similar its' practically the same event. The only difference is geth are synthetic and can't actually go insane Just Re-Act to the present While on noveria The attempt to create An army of rachni drones(i say drones because they were intended to be employed as such) Went array because they went irreversibly insane thus purging them was the only humane thing to do in order to save lives and/or hide the rachni.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 07 février 2011 - 09:24 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

darth_lopez wrote...

*edited to make shorter*

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


So if a Geth trooper killed
an unarmed civillian (Quarian or not, this is hypothetical, and it
wasn't just Quarians that died) who wasn't doing anything, the Geth
trooper can't be blamed?

I wouldn't say that he can't be blamed for an unethical kill from the civilian POV. But when it was the Civilians who initially Turned on you, because of a simple peaceful question mind you, Are you going to risk the safety of your fellow compratriots? Imagine being a soldier in the current war. It's not much different not all militants wear uniforms, something we see time and time again in wars, and the ones with no uniform are often the most dangerous.

Like wise i doubt the Quarians Spared any Geth that seemed Friendly...


Also if you disagree that any excuse is preferable to, or justified in the face of extinction Would you dissagree with Mass Nuclear Retaliation to the successful attacks , may i add attacks indicative of a human loss, of  a genocidal alien armada

In halo they started abducting children and training them to be super soldiers how far would you go to ensure special survival?

So killing a civillian who wasn't doing anything hostile is okay because they could have been a threat?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

MercenaryRQ wrote...

Kudos to what you wrote darth_lopez.

i never understood why the quarians only tried to kill them or get them back under control... and still do... (which i find worst) also it somehow reminds me on the guard at noveria in the labs in ME1 killing the rachni when he says that even animals know to not stick their nose where it hurts

The Quarians tried to reprogram them first, not kill them. When reprogramming them didn't work, they tried shutting them down (which isn't to say they attacked [as in started shooting them]), which caused the Geth to fight back.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Do you have any evidence to prove otherwise?

And so you retreat back to "guilty until proven innocent". Nice. Also nice how you declare that your assertion must be accepted as fact unless and until someone proves you wrong, rather than actually taking the time and effort to prove your own assertion. I am sorry but that is NOT going to fly. You are the one who is making an accusation against an entire species, so you prove it; don't just sit there and expect that your accusation is enough to establish guilt until someone proves them innocent. If you cannot or will not back up your assertions, then you should either qualify them as unfounded opinions or keep them to yourself.

[darth_lopez]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

*edited to make shorter*

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


So if a Geth trooper killed
an unarmed civillian (Quarian or not, this is hypothetical, and it
wasn't just Quarians that died) who wasn't doing anything, the Geth
trooper can't be blamed?

I wouldn't say that he can't be blamed for an unethical kill from the civilian POV. But when it was the Civilians who initially Turned on you, because of a simple peaceful question mind you, Are you going to risk the safety of your fellow compratriots? Imagine being a soldier in the current war. It's not much different not all militants wear uniforms, something we see time and time again in wars, and the ones with no uniform are often the most dangerous.

Like wise i doubt the Quarians Spared any Geth that seemed Friendly...


Also if you disagree that any excuse is preferable to, or justified in the face of extinction Would you dissagree with Mass Nuclear Retaliation to the successful attacks , may i add attacks indicative of a human loss, of  a genocidal alien armada

In halo they started abducting children and training them to be super soldiers how far would you go to ensure special survival?

So killing a civillian who wasn't doing anything hostile is okay because they could have been a threat?

You would dissagree when the very survival of your species is at stake?
I'm not saying it's ethical I'm just saying it's not really blameable, or a fault, or a consistently trait indicative to genocide.

is it anybetter than launching a nuclear firestorm of death?

another question applicable to the game along the very same lines that should hit closer to home:
Are you willing to shoot indoctrinated humans in ME 3 or are you going to save them on the off chance Indoctrination can be reversed? If reapers have some sort of civil variant with less hostile AI will you kill it?

For you to legitimately Call that statement wrong you would have to justify letting you species die.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

MercenaryRQ wrote...

Kudos to what you wrote darth_lopez.

i
never understood why the quarians only tried to kill them or get them
back under control... and still do... (which i find worst) also it
somehow reminds me on the guard at noveria in the labs in ME1 killing
the rachni when he says that even animals know to not stick their nose
where it hurts

The Quarians tried to reprogram them
first, not kill them. When reprogramming them didn't work, they tried
shutting them down (which isn't to say they attacked [as in started shooting them]), which caused the Geth to fight back.

Shutting down the machines is tantamount to killing them quarians had no intention of re-activating them later, Reprogramming= Brain washing. Would you willingly submit to death or brainwashing for the survival of a species who has used you as a slave?


If someone tried to drugg me to keep me in a comma then tried brainwashing me while i was in a comma How is that not a violation of my basic rights as a sentient being(sentience in this case being indicative of free thought, self relfective thought, communications between members of the species)?  Please Elaborate i'd love to know

Modifié par darth_lopez, 07 février 2011 - 09:36 .

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians tried to reprogram them first, not kill them. When reprogramming them didn't work, they tried shutting them down (which isn't to say they attacked [as in started shooting them]), which caused the Geth to fight back.

You are really reaching here. Nobody in the game, not even the Quarians themselves, ever denied that the intention of the Quarians was to render the Geth non-sentient AFTER they had already achieved sentience. That is essentially death, since you are changing them from a condition where they qualify as a form of sentient life into a condition where they no longer qualify as life. However you get from "life" to "not life" is really irrelevant here; what IS relevant is that forcibly changing someone from the former state to the latter is murder. And doing it to an entire species is genocide.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Do you have any evidence to prove otherwise?

And so you retreat back to "guilty until proven innocent". Nice. Also nice how you declare that your assertion must be accepted as fact unless and until someone proves you wrong, rather than actually taking the time and effort to prove your own assertion. I am sorry but that is NOT going to fly. You are the one who is making an accusation against an entire species, so you prove it; don't just sit there and expect that your accusation is enough to establish guilt until someone proves them innocent. If you cannot or will not back up your assertions, then you should either qualify them as unfounded opinions or keep them to yourself.

I'm not saying that my assertion has to be accepted. I'm saying this:

You want to talk the talk (as in question those who agree with me for our evidence), you have to walk the walk (as in, come up with evidence that proves we're wrong and you're right), too. Otherwise, this isn't a discussion, it's just one side making statements and the other just basically saying "you don't know what you're talking about." This can go for both sides.

[MercenaryRQ]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

MercenaryRQ wrote...

Kudos to what you wrote darth_lopez.

i never understood why the quarians only tried to kill them or get them back under control... and still do... (which i find worst) also it somehow reminds me on the guard at noveria in the labs in ME1 killing the rachni when he says that even animals know to not stick their nose where it hurts

The Quarians tried to reprogram them first, not kill them. When reprogramming them didn't work, they tried shutting them down (which isn't to say they attacked [as in started shooting them]), which caused the Geth to fight back.

i would say reprogramming / shutting them down falls kind of under killing them... since they would highly likely lose their sentience when i think about the quarians

Modifié par MercenaryRQ, 07 février 2011 - 09:43 .

[MercenaryRQ]

eh double post

Modifié par MercenaryRQ, 07 février 2011 - 09:42 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

MercenaryRQ wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

MercenaryRQ wrote...

Kudos to what you wrote darth_lopez.

i never understood why the quarians only tried to kill them or get them back under control... and still do... (which i find worst) also it somehow reminds me on the guard at noveria in the labs in ME1 killing the rachni when he says that even animals know to not stick their nose where it hurts

The Quarians tried to reprogram them first, not kill them. When reprogramming them didn't work, they tried shutting them down (which isn't to say they attacked [as in started shooting them]), which caused the Geth to fight back.

i would say reprogramming / shutting them down falls kind of under killing them... since they will lose their sentience.

Which they weren't supposed to have in the first place.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians tried to reprogram them first, not kill them. When reprogramming them didn't work, they tried shutting them down (which isn't to say they attacked [as in started shooting them]), which caused the Geth to fight back.

You are really reaching here. Nobody in the game, not even the Quarians themselves, ever denied that the intention of the Quarians was to render the Geth non-sentient AFTER they had already achieved sentience. That is essentially death, since you are changing them from a condition where they qualify as a form of sentient life into a condition where they no longer qualify as life. However you get from "life" to "not life" is really irrelevant here; what IS relevant is that forcibly changing someone from the former state to the latter is murder. And doing it to an entire species is genocide.

Once again (and argue all you will, I still don't see it), I don't view the Geth as a species.