392 réponses à ce sujet

[AceTrilby101]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Erm.. what? Memento is not only one of the most original films of all time but one of the most original stories of all time period, film or otherwise.

I may have misunderstood what you were saying but are you honestly questioning Memento's originality?

If I may interject? While I loved Memento, was it really that original? The thing that made that film special was the way it was structured - told in reverse as the main character suffered interograde amnesia, if I remember correctly. When played in chronological order, and moving the 'ending' to the end of the film, the film is a standard thriller - man's wife is killed, man goes on hunt to find killer etc. There are dozens of films with a similar plotline but Memento held people's interest because it told the story in a new and distinct way.
The same can be said of many games and movies, like the Uncharted series. People regard the story of Uncharted as good because it was well-written and an amalgamation of all the things people loved about Indiana Jones and Lara Croft. Mass Effect combined things that people loved from the sci-fi genre into a whole. Take the best parts from other films and games and you should get a really good story, which ME for the most part delivered. I think the point here is that originality is good, not entirely necessary to make a good storyline.
Now everyone, bore me with your tl;drs and comebacks. I'll be waiting

[ArchDemonXIII]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Mass Effect is the Avatar to Metal Gear Solid's Memento.

 I own both Avatar and Memento. Whle Memento is the "smarter" film, I watch Avatar more often because it's more entertaining. 

 I find it hilarious that you feel you're being bullied when you are the one who went on to the forum for fans of a game you don't like to tell everyone else that they are wrong and how superior your tastes are.

 I like loud , noisy music. I'm not nearly deluded enough to think telling fans of pop how much their music sucks in my opinion is going to make them like the bands I do. All it wil accomplish is making them think I'm an elitist jerk. If that was your intent, go ahead and pat yourself on the back, I think you've made a thoroughly convincing case.

[ApolloCloud]

Well, for one, the premise is highly original (and a damn good one): A man that suffers from interograde amnesia who uses notes, photographs and body tattoos to find the man that raped and killed his wife.



The structure of the film is also highly original, showing the events of the film in reverse chronological order in order to place the audience into the shoes of the protagonist whereby we too are kept in a constant state of disorientation with regards to exactly how events progressed into their current state.



I also watched the film in chronological order on the DVD and as Christopher Nolan stated he also intended for the film to be viewed and for the audience to find it compelling in that very format (though ideally after first seeing it in reverse order), and that he structured the story so that it operated in both manners, which further adds to its unique and complex structure.



The background story of "Sammy Jankis" and the tragedy that befell his wife was also extremely original, as was how, upon uncovering the full truth of what happened, Leanord then went on to manipulate and trick himself into believeing that Teddy Gammell was the guy he was after by intentionally distorting his own notes.



Memento was thoroughly original, with or without its ingenious structure.

[Segameister]

You're welcome to your opinion Apollo, but I have to disagree.  I too read a lot, enjoy high calibur story telling amoung various mediums etc. 

I think this is a case of different preferences for writing.  For instance none of the Metal Gears would make my top 50 list, and I stopped buying them several games ago, the same with Final Fantasy, they feel like the same old thing over and over.  So I think it comes down to what you like and don't like for storytelling in this case.

Personally I see Mass Effect 2 as one of those games that permanently changed how I look at gaming.  Halo was the last game that did this for me.  It becomes the measuring stick for my expectations.  Something that is very deep and entertaining.  I'm currently on my 10th (??) playthrough, trying different things after changing how I did things in ME1 (played through it again), and I'm ecstatic to see how the characters remain true to themselves under different circumstances.  If I were to pick 5 games to be stranded on a desert island with, this would definitely make the list! 

[ApolloCloud]

And aside from being highly original from a storytelling perspective it was also original from a technical perspective, using innovative cinematographic tricks such as seperating the small segment we see in chronological order and the main segment we see in reverse chronological order with black and white and full colour respectively and have them slowly merge together as the events catch up with one another, or how at the beginning of the film it shows the development of a photograph from a polaroid camera backwards with the picture fading instead of formign as a precursor to the film's structure.

[XyleJKH]

seems to me this guy is entitled to his opinion. Some people are not going to like this game's story telling, its just like how some people like star trek over star wars and visa versa.

its totally acceptable. However, to attack these guys and call them fanboys is fine, its the type of story they like. Its like when people who play DnD wont want to play a futuristic one. People like certain things, and their opinions should be accepted. That goes the same for you Apollo

We as a community love ME, and we like the way its set up. Sure it has its flaws and some plot holes, but no story is without those (well i shouldn't say all)

Anyway keep the peace here guys, lets not make this into a flame war

[TomY90]

I do understand where you are coming from but in general games stories are ridiculously predictable you know what will happen and you can guess all the plot twists pretty much.



Where as mass effect series granted it has alot of influences from star wars but thats is like saying its bad that she has influences of Megan Foxx in her appearances (im trying to say its a good thing)



I do feel that mass effect has changed both my perception and the what people expect in games.



You can see some of the influnces creeping into games more and more for instance Grand Theft Auto IV and red dead redemption now have decisions within the game.



Star Wars Force Unleashed 2 attempted to do the same (shame the game was terrible and so was the decision making)



Granted the actual gameplay was not that advanced at parts but the story telling, graphics cover it up



Final Fantasy series whenever i have played them wind me up they presume you know everything about the world without any explanation and you really have to dig to out anything.

[fromtheblackpast]

i think apollo needs to know why the existence or appraisal of the mass effect series is justified;



before mass effect came out, could you get the same experience from any game? make decisions like in ME? in a believable scifi-setting? with actually enjoyable gameplay? good acting and convincing background story? no. it just hadnt been done before.



tell me if i missed the game that did all those things before mass effect came out.

[ApolloCloud]

Megan Fox would happen to also be extremely overrated.

[ApolloCloud]

Perhaps Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic?

[Cadaver19]

For as good as the kotor games happened to have been they were still very toned down as compared to the overtones in mass effect. More childish.

[ApolloCloud]

To be honest I wasn't a particularly big fan of KotOR either but it actually did have something of an original plot regarding how the Jedi Council erased Darth Revan's memories but then placed him on a path whereby he would instinctively lead the Jedi to the Star Forge, not to mention some original quirks such as HK-47's speech pattern, which if I recall correctly they tried to reimplement into Mass Effect with a few of their races, whereby it was no longer as cool and fresh as it had been when it was done originally.



KotOR 2 was also vastly superior to either of them with some genuinely good philosophical content and a somewhat unique take on the Star Wars setting.

[fromtheblackpast]

ive had enough of your disingenuous assertions

[Sentox6]

Again, I want to stress how narrative and characterisation is not the only component of a video game. In fact, it's decidedly less vital than it is in a medium such as books. I'm not saying it's unimportant, but its relative importance is undeniably lower.



You talk about the praise heaped upon Mass Effect in a completely unspecific sense, then steer the argument immediately towards a comparative analysis of a specific component of the game (namely the writing). In reality, Mass Effect is highly rated because of the sum of its parts. For many people, the game is a highly compelling experience. You can wail all day long about what you perceive as its inferiorities, and you will be no closer to making a case for the game being "incredibly overrated". You still have yet to speak to gameplay mechanics, graphical fidelity, voice acting, level design, artwork...



Take your example of KotOR 2: regardless of one's take on the content, it was unfinished and broken. It will never be an exceptional game because of that.

[ApolloCloud]

In my experience, you get two different kinds of games. Games that use the medium to create a gameplay experience, and those that use the medium to tell a story. By all accounts Mass Effect would appear to be in the latter group and that was how I interpeted it to be in my assessement, and as such I put a significantly greater level of consideration on its storyline than its gameplay.



I felt that the implication that I was referring to the praise it was getting for its storyline would have been obvious enough to anyone in their double digits that I didn't feel the need to explicitly state it.



The gameplay mechanics from a techical standpoint were horrendous; poor AI that didn't do an effective job of positioning themselves away from your own gunfire, imprecise shooting mechanics, a universally despised driving mechanic that completely lacked fluidity in its movement, a cover system that didn't operate in a consistent manner, among other things. The graphics were good, but not great next to its contemparies. Voice acting was one area that was notably impressive. Level design was atrocious, with constantly recycled building layouts and repetitive side quest structure. Artwork was bland and generic.



KotOR 2 being unfinished is a critisicm of how it was next to how it could have been and nothing more. Like Mass Effect and KotOR it was very much a story driven game and in telling a vastly superior storyline with no notable gameplay shortcomings, it was quite easily the superior game.

[ApolloCloud]

In my experience, you get two different kinds of games. Games that use the medium to create a gameplay experience, and those that use the medium to tell a story. By all accounts Mass Effect would appear to be in the latter group and that was how I interpeted it to be in my assessement, and as such I put a significantly greater level of consideration on its storyline than its gameplay.



I felt that the implication that I was referring to the praise it was getting for its storyline would have been obvious enough to anyone in their double digits that I didn't feel the need to explicitly state it.



The gameplay mechanics from a techical standpoint were horrendous; poor AI that didn't do an effective job of positioning themselves away from your own gunfire, imprecise shooting mechanics, a universally despised driving mechanic that completely lacked fluidity in its movement, a cover system that didn't operate in a consistent manner, among other things. The graphics were good, but not great next to its contemparies. Voice acting was one area that was notably impressive. Level design was atrocious, with constantly recycled building layouts and repetitive side quest structure. Artwork was bland and generic.



KotOR 2 being unfinished is a critisicm of how it was next to how it could have been and nothing more. Like Mass Effect and KotOR it was very much a story driven game and in telling a vastly superior storyline with no notable gameplay shortcomings, it was quite easily the superior game.

[ArchDemonXIII]

ApolloCloud wrote...

In my experience, you get two different kinds of games. Games that use the medium to create a gameplay experience, and those that use the medium to tell a story. By all accounts Mass Effect would appear to be in the latter group and that was how I interpeted it to be in my assessement, and as such I put a significantly greater level of consideration on its storyline than its gameplay.

I felt that the implication that I was referring to the praise it was getting for its storyline would have been obvious enough to anyone in their double digits that I didn't feel the need to explicitly state it.

The gameplay mechanics from a techical standpoint were horrendous; poor AI that didn't do an effective job of positioning themselves away from your own gunfire, imprecise shooting mechanics, a universally despised driving mechanic that completely lacked fluidity in its movement, a cover system that didn't operate in a consistent manner, among other things. The graphics were good, but not great next to its contemparies. Voice acting was one area that was notably impressive. Level design was atrocious, with constantly recycled building layouts and repetitive side quest structure. Artwork was bland and generic.

KotOR 2 being unfinished is a critisicm of how it was next to how it could have been and nothing more. Like Mass Effect and KotOR it was very much a story driven game and in telling a vastly superior storyline with no notable gameplay shortcomings, it was quite easily the superior game.

 Words in bold pretty much sum up this entire thread.

 I personally never played either KoToR. They both suffer the same handicap in my opinion... turn based combat. It's what ruins most RPG's for me. I find it to make me feel more detached from my character than any bad dialogue/ poor characterization ever could. Could it be better? Yes, absolutely. But overall, it's decent enough to make me feel invested in my character in a way pushing a button that says "ATTACK" never could.

 Also I would point out that you titled it "incredibly overrated" not "incredibly overrated story" so insulting people's intelligence by saying anyone in the double digits should understand despite the vagueness of your wording is rather uncalled for. One could assume someone so versed in writing theory would know that.

Modifié par ArchDemonXIII, 10 février 2011 - 02:47 .

[Phaelducan]

TOP - Show me a modern day "original" work of science fiction and I'll eat my hat. Asimov, Bradbury, Philip K. Dick, William Gibson, etc. There really isn't anything new under the sun anymore.



Pick your medium, there just isn't anything being done which you can't point to previous entries as likely having influenced it.



I actually think interactive sci-fi is a more likely launching pad for originality... if not in plot and theme then at least in gameplay and structure.

[Skilled Seeker]

If you don't like it then stop wasting your time here and take your superiority elsewhere. I don't see what you're hoping to achieve.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 10 février 2011 - 01:49 .

[Nizzemancer]

ApolloCloud wrote...

lol I knew The Social Network reference was going to be questioned after posting that. XD

The beauty, and originality, behind The Social Network's plot was the irony behind friendships falling apart in the creation of a website designed to keep friends connected. A simple premise to be sure, but an entirely original one.

In the case of Black Swan, the originality lies in the manner in which the film told a story about the competitive and stressful nature of the world of ballet and all of the hardships and pressure associated with it, and did so by centering the story around the production of the great Swan Lake, and paralleled the themes of duality inherent within the ballet to the psychological breakdown of the star of the ballet who was playing both roles as the Swan Queen: The White Swan, and The Black Swan.

EL OH EL at it being a simple remake of the play haha... XD

Black Swan is just a ripoff of Fight Club.

[shnizzler93]

I really, really want to post a picture here, but it will most likely be reported as spam.



To the OP, Everything that you said was your opinion, nothing more. You cannot objectively make an argument for or against something because, as humans, we are defined by our subjectivity: that's what makes us different, unique. Just because you found another person who agrees with you doesn't mean you've objectively proved anything; you just found someone who has the same opinion.



That being said, I respect your opinion, even though I disagree with it. Yes, if you break Mass Effect down, it can be incredibly generic, but as with any work of fiction, it requires some "suspension of disbelief" in order to enjoy the story. Then again, that's just my opinion, so feel free to disagree.

[Veex]

I think there are plenty of religious, political, psychological and other factors at work in Mass Effect. They may not be as overtly displayed as other games, and for that I thank BioWare. If you've played Mass Effect and only come away with "small band of soldiers fights to save galaxy from bad machine" then you've probably gone a little overboard with your reductionist criticism. There is plenty of depth to be found and dissected in the ME universe, you simply don't get it slammed in your face.

BioWare's greatest strength, in my opinion, is crafting games that can be played both with incredible ease and painstaking depth.

Modifié par Veex, 10 février 2011 - 02:41 .

[ApolloCloud]

TOP - Show me a modern day "original" work of science fiction

Inception?

[ApolloCloud]

I myself have designed a Science Fiction story that I'd say is pretty original.

[spernus]

ApolloCloud wrote...

TOP - Show me a modern day "original" work of science fiction

Inception?

Nice try,but you completely failed.

You think way too much for your own good and you also try too hard.

If I were to make an analogy,I would say that your attitude is the kind that will start a world war.Kinda like the third Reich being convinced of their superiority and going on to "conquer" the world.

You are wasting your time convincing Bioware fans of their favorite developer being overrated or mediocre because this is the real core issue.You aren't talking about Mass effect,but Bioware in general.

If fans ultimately think Bioware is an overrated developer,it's up to them to go somewhere else as some already did after hearing about the changes to Dragon Age 2.