392 réponses à ce sujet

[nipsen]

..there are many games with three and four acts.. that last much longer than each of the ME games so far, where what you do earlier in the game deliberately is designed to affect the ending, and so on. It's not as if this kind of narrative technique hasn't been used before, or isn't where interactive stories can work much better than movies and books.

It's the first time we've seen a game with choices passing through the series, and that it's used as an incentive for sticking with the series, etc. So it's a new sales technique, it's not a new narrative technique

I keep wondering if something like this is the only way to make publishers start to believe it might pay off to commit resources to games based on story-telling, though.. That the entire "haha, we're going to cheat the customers this way!" element just has to be in there somewhere, or something...

Modifié par nipsen, 10 février 2011 - 09:47 .

[TheNexus]

Just because the story isn't necessarily ground breaking doesn't mean the presentation isn't.



Final Fantasy 7 has a pretty standard story, but the reason people name it as an all time favorite is presentation, presentation, presentation.

[Ulzeraj]

TheNexus wrote...

Just because the story isn't necessarily ground breaking doesn't mean the presentation isn't.

Torment was about what? A guy with amnesia trying to know who the hell he was.

I don't think there is such thing as "original" plot nowadays. Its how about how you implement it.

[Durontan]

It is a matter of opinion. To me ME universe was fresh, something new, with a great storyline, and pardon me for saying it, I do not know a game with better voice acting then ME and I did try all the games you mentioned. Point of ME was that it got juices pumping, you as a player start to really feel you are Shepard and you care, yes you CARE for your crew. Once on Ilos you figure out what is really going on, you have the feeling that entire universe depends on you and your team, no game can project a feeling like that. Same goes with ME2.



You mentioned some games and TV shows and movies... honestly The Prestige I considered complete and utter crap, both the story and the way it was coming towards the conclusion. Lost was great first two seasons... and then they made it into a worse thing then a soap opera, without real storytelling. Final fantasy series are great, I'll admit that, but how many sequals can we really do prior to getting bored? That ME had 10+ parts I'd also say enough already.



But that is my opinion on the subject. That just shows you how people are completely different with different preferences.

[Therefore_I_Am]

I stopped reading immediatley after he compared mass effect to jrpgs.



My opinion? JRPGs have no connection to reality; especially in a "realistic" sense, the emotions and acting of characters give you a socially awkward feeling. You can never take them seriously. ME has a few moments that are similar... but JRPGs (Final fantasy included) are just weird.



Also jrpg fans tend to be big basement trolls... I wouldn't take this guy seriously either.

[armass]

Metal Gear Solid? please...

MGS1 and 3 were pretty good games, I personally think mgs 3 was pretty much a masterpiece, but come oon. MGS2 was so convuluted with so many damn plottwists it started to seriously hurt the story, and that switch from Snake to androgynous anime ninja Raiden pissed so many people off, and as an end boss you fight the ex american president who is in doctor octopus suit.... wtf....! What the hell were they smoking...?

MGS4 was even more crazy with pants ****ting Johnny, Johnny proposing Meryl in the middle of shoot out with all female troopers, robot walkers that moo like cows, beauty and beast unit with supermodels trapped inside warmachines with completely ridiculous and overdramatized backstories, A monkey in human underwear drinnking cola(dont even start with the ridiculousness of Drebin himself) plus the fact that in the end it turn out Big Boss is still alive and looks like he has suffered no injury at all?! BS! Plus that every supernatural occurence like Vamps healing and super speed and agility was simply explained away as nanomachines.... yeah, of course...  I think Kojima dropped the ball with the 4th game. And those villains, damn, they just love to talk and talk and talk, even when they are dying...

Ign gave MGS4 10/10, i would call that incredibly overrated. Especially since the whole game is about 80% cutscenes and 20% gameplay. Mass Effect can give the same style of cinematic experience and it's still a game you play most of the time and you can even make choices.

Also you never see a game that explains and preaches too much like Metal Gear Solid series. Mass Effect at least has a codex for all the superfluous things. You hear about it in game and you can read about it more in codex if u so desire, they dont just explain your head off right there like mgs does.

And if you wanan check just how ridiculous characters, worlds and plot elements are in some of the FF games like FFX that the opener mentioned, just check out The Spoony Ones 4 part review of the game. Nuff said...

Modifié par armass, 10 février 2011 - 01:50 .

[Nachituy]

"We have a cliched, formulaic plot set within the

confines of an unimaginative, unoriginal setting. It's entirely lacking

of a good measure of complexity, and psychological, spiritual and

philosophical depth"



oh wow , please , for your sake , stay away form starcraft 2 , im not joking really

[fromtheblackpast]

nipsen wrote...

..there are many games with three and four acts.. that last much longer than each of the ME games so far, where what you do earlier in the game deliberately is designed to affect the ending, and so on. It's not as if this kind of narrative technique hasn't been used before, or isn't where interactive stories can work much better than movies and books.

of course, but in mass effect you CHOOSE. not everything, because often the outcome is the same, no matter what you did. but little things. who lives. who dies. you do it of your own free will. and thats really amazing to me. in other games there are choices your character makes, but he does them, not you. thats the thing with mass effect. youre not playing as commander shepard. you ARE him.

[Reikilea]

I know how ApolloCloud´s feels. I usually only care about story. I need a good and working story.

I dont know but as far as I remeber there was nothing new in storytelling since Citizen Kane and Rashomon. For example all Hollywood movies - they still have same Aristotelian concept.

Every new story is variation, what matters is just how will you tell it, what kind of functional world will you create. And thats something every good scifi and fantasy needs. In ME it works perfectly, because you can believe in world around you.

In games it is slightly different but main principle stays. Because it is a player who is creating the story, and the world is shaping around him, especially in RPG genre. But there are and there still will be limitations.

And to the Metal Gear Solid. I love that game, but it certainly hasnt got good storytelling. Maybe good story, but storytelling is more like : main story is told in cutscenes, and rest consist of Snake getting somewhere and killing everything around him, to trigger that cutscene.

[ApolloCloud]

You mentioned some games and TV shows and movies... honestly The Prestige I considered complete and utter crap, both the story and the way it was coming towards the conclusion.

Take that back.

[AirborneMind]

Hmm, I made my response thinking you wanted a rational debate. Clearly that's not the case. Sorry to have wasted my breath...err fingers?...time, whatever.

[ApolloCloud]

There's not really anything more on my part to be said. This topic has evolved beyond the simple question of whether Mass Effect is overrated and I'm now more interested in discussing other topics, such as why people seem to think originality is a thing of the past when it evidently isn't.

[StElmo]

Experience in the field of storytelling doesn't mean you have the ability to critique these games any better then anyone else.



As many people will know, experience does not necessitate creative prowess in any field or vice versa. But I assume this is just your opinion of the games and fair enough, if that's what you think.



While Mass Effect has drawn upon various science fiction roots, I feel it is pretty much the best piece of Sci-Fi storytelling I have ever witnessed. So what if it plays to the genre? In my opinion, it plays the genre damn well.



In fact, I like it better then Star Wars original trilogy. By a long shot.

[Ulzeraj]

ApolloCloud wrote...

There's not really anything more on my part to be said. This topic has evolved beyond the simple question of whether Mass Effect is overrated and I'm now more interested in discussing other topics, such as why people seem to think originality is a thing of the past when it evidently isn't.

I would quote Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces work but some people will bash me telling that it was mentioned thousands of times everytime a discussion like that pops. Just read about it if you didn't... talking all like that I'm sure you'll be interested.

[StElmo]

Also, I don't mind if something isn't original. IMHO Mass Effect IS original, but I digress.



If something is not original, it just has to be damn good at what it does. So whether or not ME1 and 2 are original is moot to me, as they are the cream of the sci-fi crop, anything else is just residual entertainment as far as I'm concerned.

[wraithofblades]

Okay...so maybe Mass Effect isn't the most original thing ever to grace humanity with its existence. I mean it does follow a sort of pattern. Space Marines? Check. Alien bents on destroying the universe? check. Aliens bent on destroying humanity? there too. But the reason this kind of thing occurs in my opinion is because gaming is an INDUSTRY. Industries follow trends yes?So if a formula works why not stick to it and make bank? The same thing occurs in JRPGs how many effeminate, emotionally wounded male leads have we gone through in Final Fantasy alone? At the very least Mass Effect has created an entire universe with numerous different species and cultures based around a coherent timeline and narrative. The story may not be original but at least it makes sense. Metal Gear is like a spastic took to paper with Michael Bay drawing the pictures. Still gameplay is solid and enjoyable. The second reason I think we see trends is because we exist in a world that trends occur in cycles. We re-use culture constantly and many of our stories date back so fa they can hardly be traced. Mass Effect is original in some aspects as most things can be, but to call it simply unoriginal because it didn't have your particular flavor to it seems a bit odd.

[wraithofblades]

Recho wrote...

ApolloCloud wrote...

Oh my god this guy has dedicated himself to this discussion FOR DAYS. Even if he's trolling, that's remarkably sad. My condolences, OP. But just think, if this were a JRPG, you'd have almost leveled up by now. Keep on grindin!

Upon looking though your profile I noticed you had zero friends and I can't say I'm surprised.

You are right.  In my dozen or so forum posts I have formed no lasting relationships through this niche discussion network, not a one.  I am going to virtually cut my avatar's wrists and stream My Chemical Romance as I virtually die, weeping.  Damn you, actual human interaction, for constantly distracting me from building up my collection of cyber buddies!  A bloo bloo bloo bloo...

Edit:  Check it out, see?  Look at my avatar being all sad and bloody.  I don't think he's gonna make it.
 

also..this made my day

[jeweledleah]

art doesn't have to be original in order to be exceptional. otherwise, by that merit every portrait that's ever been done is just another rendition of a human face, how very trite.

what makes Mass effect exceptional series of games is that even with flaws, some more glaring then the others, it draws you in, it provides hours upon hours of enjoyment, it inspires people, often people who's never done this sort of thing before to create their own art based on its universe, it inspires passionate arguments, and its very very replayable.

its the sum of all parts that makes this game amazing.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 10 février 2011 - 05:36 .

[ApolloCloud]

In retrospect perhaps this topic should have been made in reference to more than just its story. You have some guy claiming that the Mass Effect soundtracks are probably the two best videogame soundtracks of the last decade in another thread here.

[ApolloCloud]

As I was saying earlier jeweledleah the artistry behind a portrait, much like that behind photography, lies in its original capture of an element of the real world that is usually of intended note.

[Ulzeraj]

[nipsen]

fromtheblackpast wrote...

of course, but in mass effect you CHOOSE. not everything, because often the outcome is the same, no matter what you did. but little things. who lives. who dies. you do it of your own free will. and thats really amazing to me. in other games there are choices your character makes, but he does them, not you. thats the thing with mass effect. youre not playing as commander shepard. you ARE him.

..mm. And Troika, Obsidian, (or Particle Systems for that matter) didn't have the advertisement budget, or the media tailwind that Bioware has. In their games, choice is either too complex, or not complex enough. Etc. Something is too hardcore, or not hardcore enough. Most of the time it's actually both, depending on which review you're reading. Even though they do and did perfect those types of choices and narrative techniques long ago.

I'm happy that you enjoy that type of story-telling in Mass Effect. But to excuse certain problems with the writing because the reception generally is only positive, that's not a good thing..

[Spinnazie]

Why is this thread even alive? The OP is obviously a hipster JRPG fanboy.



"Overrated" is a relative term, and why do you care anyway? People enjoy something, and that bothers you?

[OriginalTibs]

The measure of a story is in its reading.

Many here have argued that the quality of any work of art is a matter of personal taste, but I would press further to offer that some measure of the quality of the tale is in the quality of the reader.

Having played ME2 over and over, using every available class and attempting to vary my own input I have found that the story is remarkable in that it changes significantly if I play as a rogue compared with playing as avatar.

The characters are well developed, notable, and significant. I would even go so far as to suggest they are archetypical. The plot, inevitable as it is, is rather intricate. The measure of the hero is adequately commensurate with the measure of the antagonist (the Reapers). The suggestions of mythos in the storyline of the Protheans is rather epic.

I could go on. In short, Appollocloud, you weren't impressed most likely because you didn't play it very well.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 10 février 2011 - 06:10 .

[ApolloCloud]

It bothers me when it comes highly recommended and my expectations become raised to far greater heights then they should be leading to nothing but dissapointment after playing through it myself...