392 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

ApolloCloud wrote...

"Just asking, which games are that exactly?"

What do you mean?

Well, you said other games before Mass Effect did what Mass Effect is credited for. So I ask you, which games are that exactly?

[ApolloCloud]

What specifically?

[Mister Mida]

ApolloCloud wrote...

What specifically?

You said it. You tell me.

[Ahglock]

Maybe it did the norms exceptionally well. Though story wise I do not consider it great. Entertaining sure, but not great.

[ApolloCloud]

Phaedon wrote...
Nothing is original. Star Trek was certainly not. Star Wars? Nope. And yet these sci-fi franchises are praised.
I believe that ME's story easily beats the story of 90% of the adventure games out there, both in originality and quality.

Therefore, I can't understand what the OP is trying to say.

I've already cited numerous games in this very thread that are original. Ever17: the Out of Infinity. Kagetsu Tohya. Xenogears. Final Fantasy VII. Final Fantasy X. Even stuff like the recent Final Fantasy XIII, while not original on a conceptual level, still depicted a setting vastly disimal to the basic fantasy setting in all its intricities. Mass Effect, on the other hand, depicts a fundamentally generic Sci Fi setting with a formulaic plot to boot.

[Da_Lion_Man]

I think you make some good points. I'm not the biggest fan of the story myself, however I believe the characters and the lore of Mass Effect 2 are well done.
It's just that the main quest itself was lacking, which was a shame.
You're also correct about the originality part... Bioware never was one for originality if you ask me. Which is a bit of a shame. I like originality.

[Phaedon]

ApolloCloud wrote...
I've already cited numerous games in this very thread that are original. Ever17: the Out of Infinity. Kagetsu Tohya. Xenogears. Final Fantasy VII. Final Fantasy X. Even stuff like the recent Final Fantasy XIII, while not original on a conceptual level, still depicted a setting vastly disimal to the basic fantasy setting in all its intricities. Mass Effect, on the other hand, depicts a fundamentally generic Sci Fi setting with a formulaic plot to boot.

I have never heard of these games (except for FF). Probably because they are JRPGs, as their names suggest. Please explain to me how they are 'original'? I can't imagine JRPGs being original both on a concept and a design level.

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 février 2011 - 07:56 .

[ApolloCloud]

Mister Mida wrote...
You said it. You tell me.

I said lots of things. With regards to its choice based mechanics? WRPGs have been doing the same thing for years, a quick example being Planescape: Torment that was released in the 90s, that even had a greater quantity of branching choices. Importing chocies into the next game? Suikoden. Basic Sci Fi setting? Bioware's own KotOR setting was almost identical to Mass Effect's, minus a few details.

[Mister Mida]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...
You said it. You tell me.

I said lots of things. With regards to its choice based mechanics? WRPGs have been doing the same thing for years, a quick example being Planescape: Torment that was released in the 90s, that even had a greater quantity of branching choices. Importing chocies into the next game? Suikoden. Basic Sci Fi setting? Bioware's own KotOR setting was almost identical to Mass Effect's, minus a few details.

When it comes down to mechanics, the same can be said about JRPG's. The mechanics are similar to those twenty years back, but they're improved and features have been added. I personally call that healthy evolution of the genre. To many people importing saves in ME was probably for them the first time done right. I'm not part of that group (Conrad Verner anyone?). The setting? As Phaedon said, Star Trek wasn't original, Star Wars wasn't original. They just did it very good. Just like ME does.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 06 février 2011 - 08:02 .

[ApolloCloud]

Phaedon wrote...
I have never heard of these games (except for FF). Probably because they are JRPGs, as their names suggest. Please explain to me how they are 'original'? I can't imagine JRPGs being original both on a concept and a design level.

I've already explained how in this very thread. Final Fantasy VII and X feature unique characterisation. Ever17 and Kagetsu Tohya feature unique implementation of choice influencing storytelling, and Xenogears applies numerous philosophical and psychological concepts to the story in unique manners.

[MrDizazta]

ApolloCloud wrote...

MrDizaztar wrote...

I'm sorry but ApolloCloud you are nothing more than a JRPG fanboy. You bring up threads like this just to say JRPGs are better than WRPGs. Another thing I would like to say is that the Final Fantasy Series as a whole has some of the most incoherent plot of any gaming franchise. Also there is a reason why WRPGs like Mass Effect are still around while JRPGs barely exist right now.

Perhaps you need to pay more attention as there are numerous JRPG series operating in the western world (more in fact than there are WRPGs operating in the western world), let alone the amount operating in their country of origin. Square Enix alone publish far more high profile RPGs than the combined collective of WRPG publishers. Such series as Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and Megami Tensei continue to be heavy hitters, and you get hundreds of other JRPG releases in the West. The likes of Mass Effect don't even get released in Japan.

In case your wondering that is the cover for the Japanese release of Mass Effect.  Also when Mass Effect was release in Japan, it was ranked third highest selling game.

Modifié par MrDizaztar, 06 février 2011 - 08:10 .

[Phaedon]

I've already explained how in this very thread. Final Fantasy VII and X feature unique characterisation

As in?

Ever17 and Kagetsu Tohya feature unique implementation of choice influencing storytelling

This has been going on for years. What's 'groundbreaking' is to implement these choices in a 3D game with full voice acting, and have them apply for the whole series.

Xenogears applies numerous philosophical and psychological concepts to the story in unique manners.

Thankfully, it was not JRPGs that introduced philosophical and psychological concepts to the entertainment industry.



You are arguing that JRPGs are groundbreaking. That's weird, concerning that the defining element of them is their repetitiviness. RPGs are slow in their evolution,due to elitism, but suggesting that JRPGs have changed at their core over the past few years is just wrong.

[bjdbwea]

ME 2 is certainly not an example of good storytelling, especially not as far as the main story is concerned. But if you don't even like ME 1, perhaps video games just aren't your medium. You will not find many games that have a better story and presentation.

By the way, it's more difficult to tell a good story while also presenting choices and decisions to the player. ME 1 fortunately is more than just a playable linear movie, and ME 2 too, even though the developers obviously tried to remove the amount of choices and decisions.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 06 février 2011 - 08:10 .

[ApolloCloud]

Mister Mida wrote...
When it comes down to mechanics, the same can be said about JRPG's. The mechanics are similar to those twenty years back, but they're improved and features have been added. I personally call that healthy evolution of the genre. Too many people importing saves in ME was probably for them the first time done right. I'm not part of that group (Conrad Verner anyone?). The setting? As Phaedon said, Star Trek wasn't original, Star Wars wasn't original. They just did it very good. Just like ME does.

1. I wouldn't say Mass Effect is in any way an improvement over something like Planescape: Torment from the 90s, which had a greater quantity of choice making, or visual novels like Tsukihime that have far more meaningul ones.

2. I'm not too well informed on Star Trek, but the original Star Wars trilogy depicted a setting that was vastly disimilar to any then previously established Sci Fi settings. People at the time hadn't ever seen anything quite like it. You may be able to trace the concept behind the Force and The Jedi and other elements to other alreadye stablished mythologies but the combination of imagery and style that the OT introduced was very differentiated stuff. The images and quirkiness of such things as the Wookie race and the Hutts, R2-D2 and C-3PO, Darth Vader and Boba Fett, the Sarlacc Pitt and the Death Star etc... blew people away for being imaginative at the time because it was so different to what people knew. The Star Wars setting is nothing but incredibly imaginative.

[Phaedon]

ME 2 is certainly not an example of good storytelling,

Again?

[Epic777]

Phaedon wrote...

ME 2 is certainly not an example of good storytelling,

Again?

Why start now?

[Mister Mida]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...
When it comes down to mechanics, the same can be said about JRPG's. The mechanics are similar to those twenty years back, but they're improved and features have been added. I personally call that healthy evolution of the genre. Too many people importing saves in ME was probably for them the first time done right. I'm not part of that group (Conrad Verner anyone?). The setting? As Phaedon said, Star Trek wasn't original, Star Wars wasn't original. They just did it very good. Just like ME does.

1. I wouldn't say Mass Effect is in any way an improvement over something like Planescape: Torment from the 90s, which had a greater quantity of choice making, or visual novels like Tsukihime that have far more meaningul ones.

2. I'm not too well informed on Star Trek, but the original Star Wars trilogy depicted a setting that was vastly disimilar to any then previously established Sci Fi settings. People at the time hadn't ever seen anything quite like it. You may be able to trace the concept behind the Force and The Jedi and other elements to other alreadye stablished mythologies but the combination of imagery and style that the OT introduced was very differentiated stuff. The images and quirkiness of such things as the Wookie race and the Hutts, R2-D2 and C-3PO, Darth Vader and Boba Fett, the Sarlacc Pitt and the Death Star etc... blew people away for being imaginative at the time because it was so different to what people knew. The Star Wars setting is nothing but incredibly imaginative.

1. Well, that's your opinion. I'd say the same about a random JRPG.
2. Star Wars is really cool, and besides Lord of the Rings one of the best things that happened to me. But I don't know if you know this, but when Lucas wrote the OT, he did extensive study on mythology and story telling, figuring out how a great story is crafted. The result is Star Wars. So like I said earlier, Lucas did what others before him did, but he did it exceptionally well.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 06 février 2011 - 08:18 .

[ApolloCloud]

[quote]MrDizaztar wrote...



[quote]ApolloCloud wrote...



In case your wondering that is the cover for the Japanese release of Mass Effect. Also when Mass Effect was release in Japan, it was ranked third highest selling game.[/quote]



Well there you go then. It still doesn't change the fundamentals behind my post, something you appear unable to address. The JRPG market is far more prominent than the WRPG market in even the western world, let alone the east. For every Mass Effect you get one Final Fantasy, a couple Pokemon games and about a dozen more low key ones. You mention that Mass Effect is still around but that JRPGs are nowhere to be seen, when one of the very series mentioned in this thread: the Final Fantasy series, has three major releases for the Final Fantasy XIII mythos alone and more than a dozen more for the rest of the series. Not that I really cared about the point you were making all that much to begin with.

[InvaderErl]

bjdbwea wrote...

ME 2 is certainly not an example of good storytelling, especially not as far as the main story is concerned. But if you don't even like ME 1, perhaps video games just aren't your medium.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 06 février 2011 - 08:23 .

[Rasputin]

IMHO

Its exactly rated as it should be rated.  BioWare and Bethesda are like the two greatest crpg developers on the planet.  Even though I thought ME2 was too short, I still loved it and replayed it 4x.

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

Final Fantasy games and good storytelling? Yeah, I stopped reading there.



And as much as I love Metal Gear, the plot in all of the games is beyond ridiculous and heavily convoluted (maybe with the exception of MGS3).

[InvaderErl]

The last Metal Gear was awful, simply awful. The only thing that kept me playing was Solid Snake and Liquid Ocelot as I found the two of them immensely entertaining.

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

InvaderErl wrote...

The last Metal Gear was awful, simply awful. The only thing that kept me playing was Solid Snake and Liquid Ocelot as I found the two of them immensely entertaining.

Yeah, my least favorite game in the series and it probably had the worst storytelling I've seen in a game. And I say that as a hardcore MGS fan.

[ApolloCloud]

As in?

Would it really have been that hard for you to go back a page and find where you were told it would be?



As already said:



"The Final Fantasy series has been

far more imaginative with its storytelling, with such storylines as

that of VII, where the game places you in the role of Cloud, an

individual who's memories had earlier been intertwined with that of

Zach's without his knowing, creating a completely new personality

distinct from that of either of them, journeying through a world that

both seperately lived in and intricately weaving in his current

perception of his past with the state of affairs of the world and the

recollections of those around him, or that of Final Fantasy X, where you

take on the role of a character who's not actually even real, but

simply a physical manifestation of the memories of the past of the

dreaming Aeon summoned craetures."

This has been going on for years. What's 'groundbreaking' is to implement these choices in a 3D game with full voice acting, and have them apply for the whole series.

Please. Bioware themselevs had already done the same with former games. Most current WRPGs do the same. Mass Effect is by no means the first to have done this.



Also, may I ask what relation this has to what you quoted, where I had been citing Ever17 and Kagetsu Tohya's unique choice influencing storytelling methods? Their methods certainly haven't been used for years.

Thankfully, it was not JRPGs that introduced philosophical and psychological concepts to the entertainment industry.

Xenogears doesn;t have to have originally invented the concept to be able to apply it in an original manner. Almost any idea is simply an application of preexisting elements.

You are arguing that JRPGs are groundbreaking. That's weird, concerning that the defining element of them is their repetitiviness. RPGs are slow in their evolution,due to elitism, but suggesting that JRPGs have changed at their core over the past few years is just wrong.

I've referred to specific series, I never even brought the entire genre into the equation (I'll name a WRPG for you right now that i would refer to as "groundbreaking" - Planescape: torment), and you citing that as their defining element does not equate to that actually being the case.

[Whatever42]

Seriously? People are actually being snobs about space opera and fantasy? This is like two winos being snobs about which box wine is better.

People like what they like, either because of plot, storytelling, humor, writing, characters, setting, or just general coolness factor. Saying they shouldn't like it because you don't personally like it or that it doesn't meet some arbitrary objective is ridiculous.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 06 février 2011 - 08:31 .