392 réponses à ce sujet

[ApolloCloud]

See you in 2, friends.

[Phaedon]

[quote]ApolloCloud wrote...
Would it really have been that hard for you to go back a page and find where you were told it would be?

As already said:

"The Final Fantasy series has been
far more imaginative with its storytelling, with such storylines as
that of VII, where the game places you in the role of Cloud, an
individual who's memories had earlier been intertwined with that of
Zach's without his knowing, creating a completely new personality
distinct from that of either of them, journeying through a world that
both seperately lived in and intricately weaving in his current
perception of his past with the state of affairs of the world and the
recollections of those around him, or that of Final Fantasy X, where you
take on the role of a character who's not actually even real, but
simply a physical manifestation of the memories of the past of the
dreaming Aeon summoned craetures."[/quote]
An element that creates 8 tropes by itself according to TV Tropes. 

[quote]Please. Bioware themselevs had already done the same with former games. Most current WRPGs do the same. Mass Effect is by no means the first to have done this.[/quote]No, they don't. All WRPGs have had choices for literally forever, but they rarely have as overreaching consequences as the ones in Mass Effect.

[quote]Also, may I ask what relation this has to what you quoted, where I had been citing Ever17 and Kagetsu Tohya's unique choice influencing storytelling methods? Their methods certainly haven't been used for years.
[/quote]
I don't understand what you mean by this.
[quote]Xenogears doesn;t have to have originally invented the concept to be able to apply it in an original manner. Almost any idea is simply an application of preexisting elements.[/quote]I think that this is my argument, so I'll take it back, thank you very much.
[quote]I've referred to specific series, I never even brought the entire genre into the equation (I'll name a WRPG for you right now that i would refer to as "groundbreaking" - Planescape: torment), and you citing that as their defining element does not equate to that actually being the case.[/quote]

Their repetitivity is not their defining element? I may have not played many JRPGs, but everyone can notice that. Where is the meaningful progression? Both in-game and for the genre in general.
[/quote]

[CroGamer002]

Indiana Jones movies were inspired by really old adventure movies.
Are Indiana Jones overrated?

Modifié par Mesina2, 06 février 2011 - 08:57 .

[Mikey_205]

Mass Effect stole the cinematic storytelling of FFX, added good well-voiced characters, added a branching interactive dialogue system that lets you punch reporters, introduced a new IP with interesting aliens and cultures in a believable world. The main story isn't revolutionary but its certainly stronger than the recent tripe produced by the merger of Square and Enix and is objectively much better than Tales of Vesperia and Lost Odyssey both of which I am quite fond of. I would love a jRPG with a story like FFVI, Chrono Cross or Trigger that had all these innovations but to date it hasnt happened.

Modifié par Mikey_205, 06 février 2011 - 09:14 .

[InvaderErl]

Mikey_205 wrote...

Mass Effect has stolen the cinematic storytelling of FFX,

I swear, these forums...

Modifié par InvaderErl, 06 février 2011 - 08:58 .

[Phaedon]

InvaderErl wrote...
I swear, these forums...

The cursor, you know, that you use in the menus. That was stolen from Tales of the Monkey Island.

[D.Sharrah]

Guybrush Threepwood.

[Phaedon]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Guybrush Threepwood.

LeChuck.

[johnny532]

You're right OP there isn't a single thing about Mass Effect that is original or groundbreaking but that didn't stop me from enjoying it. The ME series is one of those games where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. You can dissect and analyze each component of ME and say it's un-original and weak and you'll get no argument from me but I just enjoy the whole ME experience particularly ME2.

[Mikey_205]

Don't be assanine. FFX was one of the first RPGs to have a fully voiced protagonist with so many lines and to combine that with cutscenes and a party. Mass Effect was one of the first wRPGs to feature a player created protagonist with every line voiced which was essential to create the cinematic experience. You shouldn't take away the innovations other games made as if they've always existed. My point was this generation jRPGs have completely languished in the West where they were once strong and ME does have the best storyline, story telling and setting in this generation.

[MrDizazta]

Come on Mass Effect is so awesome because it is a homage to all the great Sci-Fi classics

[Guanxii]

 Well to be honest Final Fantasy has been very cliched and incredibly overrated for over a decade now.

Final fantasy of it's glory days however will be remembered in years to come for it's impact upon both Japanese and western game design, Mass Effect not so much, I agree.

The problem is Mass Effect is in a weird space. I feel they are trying to cater to many different audiences at once and I feel in this respect Mass Effect 2 is a success. I wouldn't compare ME2 to Final Fantasy XIII - I would compare Mass Effect 2 to Avatar.

It's not created for the benefit of being Mr. Ebert, it's a popcorn flick video game and in this respect it is pioneering and indicative of the future direction of western video game design as we begin to bridge the audience (read: gender and age) gap between the appeal of video games and blockbuster movies.

In typical (western) fashion Mass Effect has a very simple and straightforward story that most people should have no trouble picking up and putting down... like the best hollywood movies, the art is not necessarily in the writing it's in the cinematography and the atmosphere it evokes that you feel on a more primal level.

Modifié par Guanxii, 06 février 2011 - 09:31 .

[D.Sharrah]

Phaedon wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Guybrush Threepwood.

LeChuck.

Ahhhhh....such great games.  I was so happy when they released them on XBOX Live.

[InvaderErl]

Mikey_205 wrote...

Don't be assanine. FFX was one of the first RPGs to have a fully voiced protagonist with so many lines and to combine that with cutscenes and a party. Mass Effect was one of the first wRPGs to feature a player created protagonist with every line voiced which was essential to create the cinematic experience.

And by that logic, the Wizard of Oz ripped off of Cupid Angling because the latter used color first. Technology and money had more to do with the lack of voice work in RPGs than anything else. It still is a heavy undertaking.

The notion that somehow cinematic camera angles and storytelling is an idea that originated with FFX is preposterous when we have a medium called FILM.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 06 février 2011 - 09:34 .

[Andy379]

Arnt they all good games that all sold really well =D

[TCBC_Freak]

It's a completion of the whole of the game. Mass Effect is a total of all its part. It's graphically different from a lot of other games; it has it's own style. The voice acting is great and the character development is superb. True the story may not be all that 'original' in it's format but what is? Honestly what could some one do that hasn't been done before? Also it is a trow back, it's much like the old Sci-Fi films of the 70-80's which took something not really new but did it in a new way. Also the depth of the universe of Mass Effect is huge. Just my little bit.

[kalle90]

That OP really put me down. I start to feel I haven't ever seen a good story. ME is generic, Final Fantasies only get interesting during the final hours, Half life is just a mute dude walking around disaster... Even Lost Odyssey which is fantastic IMO is just about a guy without memories going against big bad evil man

[Da_Lion_Man]

kalle90 wrote...

That OP really put me down. I start to feel I haven't ever seen a good story. ME is generic, Final Fantasies only get interesting during the final hours, Half life is just a mute dude walking around disaster... Even Lost Odyssey which is fantastic IMO is just about a guy without memories going against big bad evil man

Every literal work will be subjective and a matter of taste.

[Guitar-Hero]

It's not so much the story, but the narrative elements that excel, what i mean is the way the game is structured and almost woven around the gamemechanics, you are the one who progresses through the game not a character called Snake or Bingo the humping dog.

[Mikey_205]

FFX was one of the first to bring a fully voiced protagonist to RPGs. It showed it worked, if it hadn't then companies would have stopped following the blueprint (like Planescape). Also FFX was the first to take a fully voiced protagonist, cinema techniques and use it in a 70 hour Role Playing GAME. Stealing was perhaps the wrong word I don't think they took it thinking that but probably decided to do a cinematic game with a fully voiced protagonist knowing it had worked before (a fully voiced protagonist was at the time thought silly by the Dragon Age development team).



Anyway I'm in agreement with most people who are saying ME is a sum of its parts nothing is amazingly revolutionary apart from the cinematic dialogue system but it brings a lot of good stuff together and is a confident, natural evolutionary step.

[ApolloCloud]

An element that creates 8 tropes by itself according to TV Tropes.

If you're simplifying what I stated or examining the components of the idea without acknowleding the precise manner in which they connect, sure.



The fact of the matter is Cloud's intertwoven memories with those of Zach or Tidus's existence being seemingly real but that of an inanimate projection of the memories of a dreaming mystical entity are both completely original ideas that shaped the stories they appeared in.

No, they don't. All WRPGs have had choices for literally forever, but they rarely have as overreaching consequences as the ones in Mass Effect.

Aside from importing the choices into the second game, KotOR and Jade Empire did, as far as the quantity of choices and how meaningful they are. The choices in Planescape: Torment were far more meaningful and plentiful. Not to mention the majority of visual novels.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

What you were saying had seemingly no relation to what it was quoted under.



Apollo Cloud: Ever17 and Kagetsu Tohya feature unique implementation of choice influencing storytelling.



Phaedon: This has been going on for years. What's 'groundbreaking' is to implement these choices in a 3D game with full voice acting, and have them apply for the whole series.

I think that this is my argument, so I'll take it back, thank you very much.

This statement is nearly as meaningless as the principles behind your argument.



You were seemingly saying that Xenogears isn't original for applying preexisting ideas in unique ways because it did not create those preexisting ideas, when I am saying that it's not required to have created the original ideas. In applying those ideas in a unique manner that fits into the thematic structure of the story, Xenogears is telling a unique story.

Their repetitivity is not their defining element? I may have not played many JRPGs, but everyone can notice that. Where is the meaningful progression? Both in-game and for the genre in general.

Or more like, "everyone likes to pretend that". As someone who has played a large amount of both JRPGs and WRPGs I can say JRPGs for the most part, as far as the storytelling is concerned, are far more diverse. They cover a far greater number of settings and styles, usually go into much deeper territory that speaks on philosophical, psychological, spiritual and political levels, far greater dimesnions of complexity, and usually build their worlds in a more fantastical, imaginative manner. You have JRPGs as diverse as Chrono Cross, Xenogears, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy VII, Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3, Valkyrie Profile, Star Ocean: Till The End of Time, Suikoden IV, Demons's Souls, Romancing SaGa, Koudelka, and Kingdom Hearts II. For WRPGs I'd say I've only really come across three distinct types and examples in each would be Planescape: Torment, Baldur's gate, Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, and Deus Ex. Everything else falls into those groups, with the vast majority being a template of either Tolkien Fantasy or Star Wars/Star Trek Sci Fi. With fundamentally formulaic stories; JRPG storylines are for the most part far more fantastical and complex.

[SalsaDMA]

Actually very few stories are original anymore.



http://en.wikipedia...._Thousand_Faces



Have fun

[Iwillbeback]

I played both mass effect 2 and final fantasy 13 in the last 2 months.
Final fantasy is good but the story didn't interest me, lighting's butt on the chocobo stole the show.

Although i will admit i did play Mass effect 2 first and it did make me fall in love with the mystery behind the reapers.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 06 février 2011 - 11:10 .

[ApolloCloud]

Few plots, perhaps (a recent one I can think of would be the movie Inception, or Black Swan). Storyline refers to the sum of setting, character, plot, theme, and style, and there are plenty out there that possess a good measure of originality.



i never denied that George Lucas was heavily inspired by other mytholigies in his creation of the Star wars setting but at the same time you cannot deny that as far as imagery, style, and general quirkiness are concerned, the Ot established a very imaginative setting in what it depicted. Mass Effect quite simply doesn't. Stop trying to draw parallels between the two.

[Nightwriter]

The story isn't really anything special, no.

But the universe!



So cool.