392 réponses à ce sujet

[TRISTAN WERBE]

[quote]TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

[quote]ApolloCloud wrote...

[/quote]i like clouds u have a problem[/quote]

I'm going to try and express this in the nicest way I possibly can...

I no longer like you, I no longer admire you, I no longer respect you as a man and as a being of sexual prowess and I no longer consider us friends.

Good day.[/quote]see was telling what u thought of me so hard
[/quote]so he thinks im half  a star

[TRISTAN WERBE]

half a star

[ApolloCloud]

Well it's all good and well saying that he came across in a certain way to you and that the Mass Effect characters felt more like real people, but let's look at the facts.



In Cloud Strife we have the tale of an individual who's memories were intertwoven with those of his best friend, Zach, creating an entirely new and distinct personality alltogether, who journeys through a world that both characters had individually impacted, with his perception of his past, and what actually occured with those two characters being intricately woven together in a mostly seamless manner. In understanding his character we explore such concepts as the relativity and infallibility of human memory and experience, and we use such means as psychoanalysis within the confines of dreams and recollections to understand his character. We understand who he is on the surface, we witness his personal history and deep backstory, and we also understand who he is on a deeply psychological level.



Those are the facts, and they clearly paint a picture of a far deeper and more complex, and imaginatively designed character than the likes we come across in Mass Effect. People like to create an air of simplicity and cliche about Final Fantasy and its characters such as Cloud but I think you people will find it's significantly more difficult when the facts are laid out right before you.

[ApolloCloud]

This looks very like a hentai original doesn´t even look like any other JRPG.

Well let's judge the entire story by a simply picture, why don't we? Never mind how it revolutionised choice influencing storytelling by implementing the concept of the many world's interpretation to bring the choice making in the game to life and have it fit into a wider story themed around the philosophy of space and time.

[AdmiralCheez]

Okay, Apollo, for gits and shiggles, I will ask you to describe Cloud's personality. Not what he does. Not what he looks like. Not his past. Describe him as if you were talking about someone you knew.



Not saying FF7 was bad at all. I liked it for the most part.

[Catsith]

ApolloCloud wrote...





However as far as the best videogame storylines go, yes, they would happen to be Japanese, but that's simply because for the most part they're far deeper, more complex, more original, and simply more compelling.



Even the very finest of Western story driven games, such as The Longest Journey and Beyond Good and Evil aren't quite on the same level as things like Metal Gear Solid, Xenogears, Xenosaga, Silent Hill 2, Chrono Cross, Baten Kaitos, Killer7, Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy VII, X and tactics etc...

There's the problem. Those games you listed are 5-10+ years old. Western story-driven RPGs and other games have caught up and surpassed all JRPGs released since then. Games like The Last Remnant, Star Ocean 4, Nier, Valkyria Chronicles, Final Fantasy XIII, Resonance of Fate, most of the PS2 JRPGs and almost every other JRPG not named "Persona" are put to shame by games like the Witcher, and Dragon Age, and Fallout: New Vegas, and Mass Effect 1+2, and Red Dead Redemption, and Alpha Protocol, etc, etc. Western RPGs have evolved and experimented far beyond what JRPGs have in the last decade, the stories have had far more interesting and rewarding non-linear paths, plotlines and characters... that's just a fact, and I say that as a fan of both. Hell, even JRPG developers like Sakaguchi himself and the director of Xenoblade have said they've stagnated too much and need to try new things, and that they've fallen way behind the west.

Deep, complex characters with original design and a tonne of style clearly aren't for everyone.

Cloud Strife is a deep, complex character with a ton of style eh? I think we're done here.

[ApolloCloud]

It's also one of the few visual novels to feature absolutely no pornographic content, much like the rest of the series.

[ApolloCloud]

I just described the essence of his character right there, getting right to the heart of the matter and pointing out just how originally designed, deep and complex a character he is. Do you propose that we ignore large elements of his characterisation just because we may not see it come to the surface directly through his personality during the game? His past and the devices used to tell his story are just as much a part of his personality as anything else.

[AdmiralCheez]

ApolloCloud wrote...

I just described the essence of his character right there, getting right to the heart of the matter and pointing out just how originally designed, deep and complex a character he is. Do you propose that we ignore large elements of his characterisation just because we may not see it come to the surface directly through his personality during the game? His past and the devices used to tell his story are just as much a part of his personality as anything else.

Naw, bro.  You described the plot and the issues he's dealing with.

Kind of like how, if I described the problems Anakin Skywalker had to deal with, you'd think he's deep and complex, but as an actual character (pre-Vader, anyway)?  Flat as a pancake.

Hence why I asked you to describe his personality alone.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 février 2011 - 02:13 .

[Thompson family]

867 words.



That's how long the original post is. For comparison, most front-page stories in newspapers are not that long.



The first three paragraphs begin with some variation of the pronoun "I". The first specific criticism is 227 words in. That first criticism is about the "cliched, formulaic plot set within the

confines of an unimaginative, unoriginal setting" -- the most worn-out cliche used in criticism of the whole sci-fi/fantasy genre.



I'm outta' here.

[Phategod1]

ApolloCloud wrote...

However as far as the best videogame storylines go, yes, they would happen to be Japanese, but that's simply because for the most part they're far deeper, more complex, more original, and simply more compelling.

Again Thats your opinion. I long for changing of the archiac tropes of RPGs no more rediculous Character designed that look like they came off the cutting room floor of Dragon Ball Z, No more Protaginist who suffer from amnesia. No more metaphysical, Suedo religous, loot hoarding, and a ton of olther things that fall along the line of bad story telling. Time s are changing with games like Bioshock, Fallout 3, Mass effect, all the convultion is being taken out of rpg's and I think there better for it, and seeing all the sales and awards these games ar garning outside of Japan (where Akira Toriyama designs are still considered king) I'd say most are in agreement. 

[Siansonea]

I think Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are great games, and I think they have good writing—for video games. The writing is not the reason the games are great, it's just one of several elements that makes the games great. So if writing is the key element to having a satisfactory experience, I can see how someone might feel the games weren't all they're cracked up to be.

[ApolloCloud]

Tetsuya Takahashi has never stated that he feels he's fallen far behind the West; the quote I believe you're referring to simply states that he feels the cinematic approach he took in his former games may have reached a dead end with respect to game design. That's it. He may not be so arrogant as to say of even think it but I'm sure he'd be capable of seeing that his stories are still vastly more imaginative than the kind we see in WRPGs. It's funny that you would now mention Xenoblade when we have people here claiming that originality is a thing of the past, when the very setting that Xenoblade depicts: the corpses of two giant Gods who both got killed in battle against one another, is in itself a thoroughly original setting, and the kind you'd expect from a Xeno game and their creator. The likes of Tetsuya Takahashi and Hideo Kojima are simply far more imaginative than people like Drew Karpyshyn (lol!).

[Glorious_Leader]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Well it's all good and well saying that he came across in a certain way to you and that the Mass Effect characters felt more like real people, but let's look at the facts.

In Cloud Strife we have the tale of an individual who's memories were intertwoven with those of his best friend, Zach, creating an entirely new and distinct personality alltogether, who journeys through a world that both characters had individually impacted, with his perception of his past, and what actually occured with those two characters being intricately woven together in a mostly seamless manner. In understanding his character we explore such concepts as the relativity and infallibility of human memory and experience, and we use such means as psychoanalysis within the confines of dreams and recollections to understand his character. We understand who he is on the surface, we witness his personal history and deep backstory, and we also understand who he is on a deeply psychological level.

Those are the facts, and they clearly paint a picture of a far deeper and more complex, and imaginatively designed character than the likes we come across in Mass Effect. People like to create an air of simplicity and cliche about Final Fantasy and its characters such as Cloud but I think you people will find it's significantly more difficult when the facts are laid out right before you.

None of that made sense to me.  Not the way you describe it, but rather, when playing FFVII, I felt
like it was a lot of unrelatable garbage with no foundation to make it
fit into the script.   All the facts lined up, but it reminded me of the
ending to "The Village".  Sure, it makes the plot make sense.  But it's
still a ****ty explanation.

Really, I think the reason for this disagreement is that I like to relate to and understand characters.  Mass Effect allowed me to do this.

[CaptainZaysh]

JRPGs have rambling, incoherent, boring plots. Mass was much better written than MGS.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

half a star

[brgillespie]

ApolloCloud wrote...
Final Fantasy VII ... features unique characterisation.

None of the characters in FF7 were particularly unique, dude. Hell, the only way Barrett would've been more ludicrous of a character would've been if he had stated "I PITY DA' FOOL" after each battle.

[ApolloCloud]

Naw, bro. You described the plot and the issues he's dealing with.



Kind of like how, if I described the problems Anakin Skywalker had to deal with, you'd think he's deep and complex, but as an actual character (pre-Vader, anyway)? Flat as a pancake.



Hence why I asked you to describe his personality alone.

I'm not sure what it is you want me to tell you. Everything I spoke about are all a big part of his character. I could tell you about how he begins as a somewhat introverted character who we see slowly open up and show signs of sentimentality and vulnerability with regards to his childhood friendship with Tifa and relationship with Aerith but I feel the deeper layers of his character and psychological makeup are far more pertinent to who he truly was and the main driving force behind the role he had in the story.

[ApolloCloud]

Do people still think this is a matter of opinion or something? Cloud is factually a unique and original character. The story behind his and Zach's intertwoven memories made for some highly unique characterisation.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

damn half a star u ****head

[Val Seleznyov]

The best game. from a story perspective, that Square Enix have been involved with is Kane and Lynch 2.

[AdmiralCheez]

ApolloCloud wrote...

I'm not sure what it is you want me to tell you. Everything I spoke about are all a big part of his character. I could tell you about how he begins as a somewhat introverted character who we see slowly open up and show signs of sentimentality and vulnerability with regards to his childhood friendship with Tifa and relationship with Aerith but I feel the deeper layers of his character and psychological makeup are far more pertinent to who he truly was and the main driving force behind the role he had in the story.

And that's the thing, isn't it?  You can tell me all sorts of things about what's happened to Cloud or what Cloud has done, but you still can't tell me who he is.

Mordin Solus is a brilliant scientist who talks as fast as he thinks.  He is practical to the point of ruthlessness, with a quirky and often surprising sense of humor.  He feels a massive amount of guilt for past actions, which he attempts to rationalize by saying it was for the greater good, but it eats at him to the point of seeking answers in places a rational mind like his normally wouldn't.  He has a love for the arts and isn't shy to discuss topics that would leave most civilized persons blushing.

See what I mean?  From the above post, you can only tell that Mordin is some sort of scientist who feels guilty about something he did in the past.  You don't know what he looks like, what he's done, or even what species he is.  However, you'd be able to pick him out right away from that description.

And this is why I love Mass Effect so much.

Your personal tastes may vary.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 février 2011 - 02:37 .

[ciel9]

Personally, I think Mass Effect succeeds because it takes all the borrowed elements the OP mentioned and streamlines them into a cohesive, polished, entertaining game. JRPGs tend to be more scattered and strong in specific areas (like combat or character development). I wouldn't say most of them are overall more satisfying than ME/ME2.

I began as a fan of JRPGs but started getting into WRPGs/Western games more recently, and I have to say neither is better than the other story or gameplay-wise overall; it's all just a matter of opinion as it has been stated (quite) frequently in this thread. Both have their archetypes and cliched plots, and I'd wager that these plots are much more similar than you think.

 
I mean, you could argue that most Western games have thin plots involving something along the lines of "main character who's a badass sets out to save the world in a LOTR or Star Wars-like setting, recruits a bunch of archetypal characters along the way, finds way too many guns to know what to do with, shoots a ton of things with one big explosion at the end, gaining redemption for his/herself and his/her past mistakes" while JRPGs are like "Androgynous looking 13-year old kid finds out he/she is the Chosen One and sets out to save the world in a fantasy-inspired setting, recruits a bunch of archetypal characters along the way, finds a bunch of legendary weapons (oh, the legendary weapons) and slashes/blows up a ton of things while gaining redemption for his/herself and his/her past mistakes and grows into a mature adult".

 
Personally, I find JRPG protagonists to be quite Mary Sue-ish most of the time, which isn't exactly evidence of great storytelling, character development, or writing. WRPG protagonists seem to be more "empty" or detached, which isn't necessarily better, but I do hate Mary Sues....Of course, that's just my opinion. And I would humbly suggest to the OP that s/he not state his/her opinion as if it is fact.

 
Also:

The Japanese think Mass Effect 2 was great: http://www.1up.com/n...ew-check-saga-3
 

But then again, they didn’t really like ME1…

Modifié par ciel9, 07 février 2011 - 02:35 .

[Phategod1]

o·pin·ion   

[uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA

–noun

1.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2.

a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

3.

the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second Medical opinion.

4.

Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.

5.

a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.

6.

a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.



There you go when you use words like "Unique" and "original" unless your describing Plato or one the original Greek Works your using your opinion.

[ciel9]

AdmiralCheez also makes a great point by showing instead of just telling. I feel like JRPG characters tend to have much more complex backstories than Western characters as if to make up for a bland or overused personality. It seems that western characters have more personality quirks and dialogue that distinguishes them, but much simpler backstories.