392 réponses à ce sujet

[ApolloCloud]

Mass was much better written than MGS.

Mass Effect's writing is utterly average. Metal Gear Solid's writing can at times be plagued by poor localisation but more often than not has the tendency to enter territories Mass Effect couldn't dream of, with absolutely brilliant wordplay. Examples being some of the dialogues at the end of Metal Gear Solid 4 where Big Boss discusses the nature of "zero", or the opening line by Eva in the Metal Gear Solid 3 ending that can be found here:



You don't get the kind of wordplay that cleverly uses referential devices, both as a form of symbolism and as a audiological delight, and weave it seamlessly into the story in games like Mass Effect. Mass Effect's writing is consistent, but fundamentally uninspired.



But anyway, you're comparing a written work of English origin to that of a written work that was subsuquently translated into English. it's hardly unreaosnable for a lot of the stuff in Metal Gear Solid to get "lost in translation" or to at times sound poorly written. I also think it isn't very pertinent to discuss the quality of writing when we're dealing with a medium of dialogue rather than a descriptive medium. With dialogue, the quality of wirting becomes far less important; it's the storytelling that matters: using the written word to bring a character to life in a believable way. Dialogue is about matching the mindset of the character, not about good writing.

[LOLZAO]

Phategod1 wrote...

ApolloCloud wrote...

However as far as the best videogame storylines go, yes, they would happen to be Japanese, but that's simply because for the most part they're far deeper, more complex, more original, and simply more compelling.

Again Thats your opinion. I long for changing of the archiac tropes of RPGs no more rediculous Character designed that look like they came off the cutting room floor of Dragon Ball Z, No more Protaginist who suffer from amnesia. No more metaphysical, Suedo religous, loot hoarding, and a ton of olther things that fall along the line of bad story telling. Time s are changing with games like Bioshock, Fallout 3, Mass effect, all the convultion is being taken out of rpg's and I think there better for it, and seeing all the sales and awards these games ar garning outside of Japan (where Akira Toriyama designs are still considered king) I'd say most are in agreement. 

Man in Fallout 3 you are literally born into the game and can shape your own personality from when you were 10 years old to when you left the vault and that ranges fron how you see the world and the decisions you make and your karma.

And in Mass Effect 2 the customization of you PC is less than in Fallout due to Shepard being a voiced character and all, but is way better than in FFVII(which was the only one i ever played)

And it´s not even about customization but about choices  i don´t remember any choice in FF that was hard as   the rachni or the council ones that choices really made me think.

[Ulzeraj]

Phaedon wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Yeah, I'll admit it, there really was nothing new or groundbreaking in Mass Effect, nor in Mass Effect 2. However, something about the series grows on you. My money's on the characters. They seem almost real to me, and I get really attached to them, especially in ME2.

Nothing is original. Star Trek was certainly not. Star Wars? Nope. And yet these sci-fi franchises are praised.
I believe that ME's story easily beats the story of 90% of the adventure games out there, both in originality and quality.

Therefore, I can't understand what the OP is trying to say.

Star Wars got a lot from Dune. I'm on the 5/6 book right now and I can say for sure about that except Dune has a very deep story about humanity, politics, science, sex, religion and everything. Frank Herbert probably had his inspirations from other writers before him.


@Apollo

I don't know about narrative and story, but the lack of control on JRPG-styled games like Final Fantasy makes me think that it shouldnt even be called RPG. It is something that doesn't really fits. Bioware-styled games since Fallout and Baldur's Gate are among the only ones that really deserve the title. This is the perspective from someone who played non-computer games that gave birth to the term "Roleplaying Game".

Thats my opinion tho (and I'm not diminishing the quality of the story). Nowadays people created a label where you slap an inventory and some dialogue and call it RPG. It is nothing like that.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 07 février 2011 - 02:52 .

[AdmiralCheez]

ciel9 wrote...

AdmiralCheez also makes a great point by showing instead of just telling. I feel like JRPG characters tend to have much more complex backstories than Western characters as if to make up for a bland or overused personality. It seems that western characters have more personality quirks and dialogue that distinguishes them, but much simpler backstories.

A glorious summary of the issue at hand.  Ciel, I applaud thee.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 février 2011 - 02:43 .

[ApolloCloud]

I can also tell you how Cloud expresses his guilt over the death of Aerith and his failure to save her, how be began his life full of hope with dreams of becoming a hero, but now that he's the hero he always wished to be he portrays himself as a detached, almost nihilistic individual, who claims that he doesn't care about others and the Planet but at the same time goes out of his way and through great personal risk to help and protect them. I can tell you all of that but I'm not here to give you an arbitrary character summary. People were acting as if it were somehow absurd to suggest that Cloud was an original or complex character (which he factually is) and that is what I was directly addressing. I could also talk about his friendship with Tifa and how he sentimentally holds onto a promise he made to her when they were kids, but again, I feel that there are far more pertinent elements of his character that cna be stated, that also happen to be far more relevant to the raised questions of Cloud having an oriignal and complex character. I'd also like to add that you personally devaluing elements of a character that we get to understand, not through their direct actions, but indirectly through the story they drive through, doesn't change the fact that it still forms a large part of an individual's character. Cloud is a complex individual, and we come to understand that through a number of means.

[ApolloCloud]

Personally, I'd be happy to refer to them as action adventures for the most part, though if we are to define the genre by the non-story gameplay mechanics then it should qualify as it does include such elements as statistic and probability.

[ciel9]

I'd also like to add that you personally devaluing elements of a character that we get to understand, not through their direct actions, but indirectly through the story they drive through, doesn't change the fact that it still forms a large part of an individual's character. Cloud is a complex individual, and we come to understand that through a number of means.

To continue using AdmiralCheez's example, replace Cloud with Mordin. These things apply to all characters.

Perhaps it's the difference between protagonists that might be jarring for you - Shepard is shaped by your actions, whereas FF and Cloud are fixed by a linear plot that you don't shape yourself, but simply experience. This is why Shepard might feel a little empty - you don't get particularly attached to Shepard like you would to Cloud, in your case.

[CaptainZaysh]

ApolloCloud wrote...
Metal Gear Solid's writing can at times be plagued by poor localisation but more often than not has the tendency to enter territories Mass Effect couldn't dream of, with absolutely brilliant wordplay. Examples being some of the dialogues at the end of Metal Gear Solid 4 where Big Boss discusses the nature of "zero", or the opening line by Eva in the Metal Gear Solid 3 ending that can be found here:

God, do you really think that was good writing?  It was clunky and trite exposition to me.

"Scholars tell us the first spy in history was the snake in the garden of eden..." yeuch.  Nobody actually speaks like that, and they would be considered a pompous ass if they did.  Hideo Kojima writes shitty dialogue.

[Ulzeraj]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Personally, I'd be happy to refer to them as action adventures for the most part, though if we are to define the genre by the non-story gameplay mechanics then it should qualify as it does include such elements as statistic and probability.

Again I did not tried to diminish the story quality. FFVII was the stuff of legends and I also enjoyed FFIX. I kinda feel guilty trying to discuss this because my experience with the genre does not go beyond that.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

half a star

[Siansonea]

So, what is the point of this thread again? Are we supposed to all suddenly not like the game? What's the objective here?



If you don't like the game, that's a bummer for you. But I'm certainly not going to go out and play a JRPG just because some random person on the Internet thinks the writing is better. I can't stand JRPGs, I can't get past all the absurd hairstyles and overly-stylized and downright caricaturish character faces. Different strokes for different folks. At least you won't have to waste your time with ME3.

[AdmiralCheez]

ApolloCloud wrote...

I can also tell you how Cloud expresses his guilt over the death of Aerith and his failure to save her, how be began his life full of hope with dreams of becoming a hero, but now that he's the hero he always wished to be he portrays himself as a detached, almost nihilistic individual, who claims that he doesn't care about others and the Planet but at the same time goes out of his way and through great personal risk to help and protect them. I can tell you all of that but I'm not here to give you an arbitrary character summary. People were acting as if it were somehow absurd to suggest that Cloud was an original or complex character (which he factually is) and that is what I was directly addressing. I could also talk about his friendship with Tifa and how he sentimentally holds onto a promise he made to her when they were kids, but again, I feel that there are far more pertinent elements of his character that cna be stated, that also happen to be far more relevant to the raised questions of Cloud having an oriignal and complex character. I'd also like to add that you personally devaluing elements of a character that we get to understand, not through their direct actions, but indirectly through the story they drive through, doesn't change the fact that it still forms a large part of an individual's character. Cloud is a complex individual, and we come to understand that through a number of means.

Paragraphs, please use them.

Again, you are describing his struggles, which is fine, since conflict is essential to any story.  However, he still sounds about as interesting as Anakin Skywalker.  In fact, I think all of those things you mentioned can be applied to Anakin Skywalker: wanted to be some big hero as a kid, becomes jaded and detached, but fiercely protects people he cares about (Amidala and his mom).  Are you going to argue that Anakin Skywalker, as presented in the most recent Star Wars trilogy, was an endearing, relatable, unique, and fundamentally human character?

Because frankly I think most people would say Anakin is a sissy little whiner who happens to be good at stabbing people with lightsabers.

Let's take someone else: Miranda Lawson.  She's a self-righteous, egotistical ice queen, who is fiercely loyal to her cause and will stop at nothing to do what she belives must be done.  However, beneath that layer of spiteful ice is a conflicted individual, one who is constantly aware of her inability to measure up the high standards she and those around her have set for her.  No matter how confident she is, how "perfect" she claims to be, she's still human.  She just won't admit it.

Again, if you met Miranda IRL, without knowing what she looked like, you should be able to tell who she was from that description.  If I did it right.

[ApolloCloud]

If you're going to quote it at least do it properly... XD



Eva: Scholars tell us that the first spy in history was the snake in the Book of Genesis. In that story it was Eve who was tempted by the snake in the Garden of Eden, but this time around it was I who tempted the snake and got away with the forbidden fruit of knoweldge.



Again, I'm not basing everything off of this single passage, but it serves as a great example of the high level quality of writing you find in Metal Gear Solid and it easily surpasses the kind you get in Mass Effect. Clever wordplay that touches on elements of irony, using referential symbolism to relate to the current situation in an audiologically pleasing and stylish manner. It doesn't matter that it's not the kind of thing that comes up in normal conversation as they're not engaged in a casual conversation but rather she's leaving him a message; Eva herself is generally not a very normal character but more of an enigmatic and cryptic one, and Metal Gear Solid makes no claims at not dealing in the outlandish and fantastical.



Note: to those who don't know, Solid Snake is the codename of the man she's talking to; she goes by the name of Eva, and the "forbidden fruit of knowledge" refers to an item that she managed to get off of Snake by deceiving him.

[Ulzeraj]

ciel9 wrote...

I'd also like to add that you personally devaluing elements of a character that we get to understand, not through their direct actions, but indirectly through the story they drive through, doesn't change the fact that it still forms a large part of an individual's character. Cloud is a complex individual, and we come to understand that through a number of means.

To continue using AdmiralCheez's example, replace Cloud with Mordin. These things apply to all characters.

Perhaps it's the difference between protagonists that might be jarring for you - Shepard is shaped by your actions, whereas FF and Cloud are fixed by a linear plot that you don't shape yourself, but simply experience. This is why Shepard might feel a little empty - you don't get particularly attached to Shepard like you would to Cloud, in your case.

I was kinda thinking about that difference. But on the other side, has anyone here played Planescape:Torment? The attachement you feel to your character The Nameless One and the plot and scenario that is presented doesn't lack in depth even in a game shaped by the player's actions.

Regardless I'm also with Chezz. The beauty of Mass Effect isnt on the main character. It is on the scenario and its characters.

[Catsith]

Siansonea II wrote...
So, what is the point of this thread again? Are we supposed to all suddenly not like the game? What's the objective here?

The thread has pretty much run its course... time for a mod methinks.

[CaptainZaysh]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Eva: Scholars tell us that the first spy in history was the snake in the Book of Genesis. In that story it was Eve who was tempted by the snake in the Garden of Eden, but this time around it was I who tempted the snake and got away with the forbidden fruit of knoweldge.

Again, I'm not basing everything off of this single passage, but it serves as a great example of the high level quality of writing you find in Metal Gear Solid and it easily surpasses the kind you get in Mass Effect. Clever wordplay that touches on elements of irony, using referential symbolism to relate to the current situation in an audiologically pleasing and stylish manner. It doesn't matter that it's not the kind of thing that comes up in normal conversation as they're not engaged in a casual conversation but rather she's leaving him a message; Eva herself is generally not a very normal character but more of an enigmatic and cryptic one, and Metal Gear Solid makes no claims at not dealing in the outlandish and fantastical.

Note: to those who don't know, Solid Snake is the codename of the man she's talking to; she goes by the name of Eva, and the "forbidden fruit of knowledge" refers to an item that she managed to get off of Snake by deceiving him.

The Satan-was-a-spy thing is a spectacularly banal observation.  It is shitty writing - it is the author speaking here, not the character - and it is not nearly so clever as you think it is.

[Lunatic LK47]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

JRPGs have rambling, incoherent, boring plots. Mass was much better written than MGS.

This. I watched someone's Let's Play of Final Fantasy VII and was glad I didn't play the damn game back in the day.

[ApolloCloud]

I'll be happy to maintain my current textual layout as I feel it serves a greater level of structural emphasis.



Your arguments are not only grasping at straws but now seem to be entering the territory of sheer nonsense.



I never claimed that the tiny summary I provided was supposed to sound especially interesting. for some slightly creepy reason you seemed desperate for me to provide it, so I was happy to oblige. Perhaps now we can be done with this highly odd scenario we've gotten ourselves into.



I'll again say that you are in no position to devalue what the story reveals about the nature of his memories and the story we indirectly see through the foggy window of his dreams and recollections, just because we don't discover it directly through the action an dialogue of the character.

[AdmiralCheez]

Apollo, either you are missing the point or trolling hardcore. I am explaining to you why I like Mass Effect: the characters have vibrant and unique personalities that make them seem real and human. Cloud, while he has many struggles he must overcome and many burdens he must carry, is kind of flat as a character and doesn't strike me as someone I'd share a beer with.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 février 2011 - 03:26 .

[b1n0ry]

Didn't like ME? Then move on. Go and find yourself a new game or stick to your Final Fantasies? You are a JRPG nerd.

[ApolloCloud]

The Satan-was-a-spy thing is a spectacularly banal observation.

This is of absolutely no merit to what we're discussing and is essentially meaningless. You are using unrelated, meaningless gibberish to try to discredit a clever use of symbolic irony.

It is ****ty writing - it is the author speaking here, not the character

Firstly, you repeatedly addressing the "writing" when we're discussing dialogue is actually ironically more along the converse lines of the point implicit in what you're stating: that the dialogue should come from the character and not the author.



Secondly, a large number of characters in Metal Gear Solid speak in the same poetic, flamboyant manner, yet they all retain their own distinctive personailities and feel. The writer is simply designing the dialogue in a flamboyant manner; Metal Gear Solid is in itself, from many of its characters to the events that take place, a very bizarre, surreal and verbose story. That the dialogue doesn't seem "normal" to you does not mean that the writer cannot differentiate his own poetic wiritng style from the diaogue of the characters (there are many characters that conversely do talk in a very normal manner). by all accounts that nature of the dialogue would seem purposeful.

- and it is not nearly so clever as you think it is.

...because you say so? Witty wordplay of ironic and symbolic substance delivered in a poetic manner with style and elegance is the definition of good writing.



I'd wager that you don't truly disagree with what I'm saying but are too hung up on the moments of bad writing in the game (which I'll admit there are; not a demerit of the original writers but of the localisation team) and your subsequent view of the writing being of general low quality that you're now too stubborn to admit that you may have been wrong.

[Siansonea]

Yeah, we been trolled.

[ApolloCloud]

To each their own, I guess. I enjoy both, but I prefer artistic realism.

The way I see it is that, as far as we know, realism is cursed with the imperfection of randomness, and by that I mean that we can't say for sure that what we see in this world of natural origin was created with any such intention or purpose of being great, whether its from a visual, audiological or any such perspective, but rather, that it may just be the way it is for no real, particular reason. Art, on the other hand, is usually created with such an intention or purpose, and by principle I feel that it has the potential to far surpass reality in that it is not faced by that same imperfection (though there are of course other limitations), so I feel that art, by good reason, should try to seperate itself from realism as much as it possibly can (though there are other issues to take into consideration, such as the person's ability to relate to the piece of art, where a certain degree of realism may be required). I guess I'd say a balance is required, but that I feel it should be leaning far more to the side of imagination than that of realism.



Good post btw.

[Siansonea]

ApolloCloud wrote...

 Witty wordplay of ironic and symbolic substance delivered in a poetic manner with style and elegance is the definition of good writing.

Actually, the only real definition of "good writing" is "writing that I personally like". So, you fail.

You like the overblown and esoteric writing of other games, and don't care for the writing in ME. That's fine. We like our game better. And no amount of yammering and trotting out literary terms is going to make me toss my copy of ME onto the "JRPGs Are Better" bonfire. I personally find too much "symbolism" to be intrusive and just seems like pseudo-intellectual BS. When people start throwing around literary terms and start trying to define "good writing", it really comes across more as ego-stroking to me. And, for crying out loud, we're talking about the writing in video games here.