392 réponses à ce sujet

[fromtheblackpast]

OP:


for the lulz

[habitat 67]

JHU_P4NDA wrote...


While you're at it, please tell me why I love lemons but hate limes.

You hate....LIMES??? Did you have a traumatic experience with lime Jello?

[Sherbet Lemon]

While I have tried to read every post in this thread, I kind of didn't, Igot anxious and really wanted to contribute because I do want to agree with the OP on matter.  Video Games have begun to seriously enter that realm of discomfort film once inhabited.  What about this particular medium makes it art and what makes it worthy of study and critique. It is important that when thinking about the future of narrative in a worldwhere people read less and consume more, we really challenge the surface rhetoric and look to beyond to find meaning.

All that being said, I don't agree at all really about your feelings

I am a fan of JRPG and Bioware so I don't really want to turn this into the JRPG versus WRPG thing as I think both have their charms, and their redeeming values (though don't get me started on Oblivion as I just
can't go there, really I can't), what I want to say is that Bioware has done is complete interesting and character in Commander Shepard who is certainly flawed and valiant, and represents the best and worst traits
of our species. Mass Effect is compelling with an engaging atmosphere and dynamic characters.  Let me explain why:

 1.  Wrex and the genophage.
The question of biomedical ethics and essentially how far is too far has been presented in unique construct in
the form of Wrex in ME1 and in Mordin in ME2. 


2.  The Asari and the notion of gender. 
While some will argue that theyare just fanservice, I think they offer an interesting perspective on the nature gender of duality and gender "performance."  The notion that the father species could be either sex invites interesting discussion on the nature of gender roles and gender identification.


3.  The geth and the quarians. 
While certainly the aliens on the screenare "aliens" in metaphor, in reality the aliens are humanity.  The geth
are alive, are conscious and this leads us to question what then is living, what does it mean to conscious and what does it mean to have a "soul."  Yes, Star Trek has done this, as has Ghost in the Shell, and
Neuromancer and other bodies of work.  This does not diminish the fact that the discussion has been recreated anew in a different environment.  The monomyth is a perfect example and others have already discuss Campbell in detail. 

4.  Women in the miliatary: female empowerment and female "strength" 
Ashley Williams, Femshep! and the fact that I have seen so many misogynist postings about the plausibility of their existence that I sometimes have to leave these forums and complain to my husband about my frustiations. 

Art, on the other hand, is
usually created with such an intention or purpose, and by principle I
feel that it has the potential to far surpass reality in that it is not
faced by that same imperfection (though there are of course other
limitations), so I feel that art, by good reason, should try to seperate
itself from realism as much as it possibly can (though there are other
issues to take into consideration, such as the person's ability to
relate to the piece of art, where a certain degree of realism may be
required). I guess I'd say a balance is required, but that I feel it
should be leaning far more to the side of imagination than that of
realism.

There is a whole school of literary theory that would disagree with this quite vehemently.  They would argue that verisimilitude offers the most cogent way to view the world and further the narrative of humanity.  It is by seeing the real that we begin to see ourselves. Ultimately I think that maybe you are arguing the Platonic form of mimesis (though I could be wrong) and if that's the case then I would maintain that your tastes differ from others and that doesn't mean that one is surperior.

I also want to say that, I don't really understand your fascination with Cloud.  Zidane from Final Fantasy IX is probably the most interesting male protaganist in the entirety of their long arc.  He is complex, and optimistic and his "reveal" about who he is moved me to tears, more than a certain character's death in VII. 

  Yeah, I'm hearltess.

[kalle90]

OP asked: "would somebody be able to explain what exactly it is about Mass Effect that they appear to be so enamored by?"



If you haven't been convinced 9 pages into thread do you still think you will be convinced to like ME? This thread isn't about "Why ME is good" anymore but "JRPGs are so much better than WRPGs atleast storywise"

[ApolloCloud]

Posted again for reference:



Eva: Scholars tell us that the first spy in history was the snake in the Book of Genesis. In that story it was Eve who was tempted by the snake in the Garden of Eden, but this time around it was I who tempted the snake and got away with the forbidden fruit of knoweldge.

No, because it's not even accurate. Think about it. Satan didn't tempt Eve with the apple to get information - he wasn't spying. The whole monologue is based upon a flawed observation. It seems clever, but when you give it even a little bit of thought you realise it was just nonsense.

Right, exactly. Except no. The drive to acquire information is not a required component of the definition of the word "spy" as it is used here. The snake fulfills the function of a spy as "an individual who keeps close and secret watch on another or others, usually with unfriendly prupose" and while in the case of Eva her role as a spy entailed acquiring the Philosopher's Legacy the parallel between Eva and Solid Snake and the snake and Eve does not have to be exact for it to act as a meaningful form of irony. The measure of irony lies in the fact that, in contrast to the Snake having tricked Eve in the Book of Genesis, this time it is Eva who tricks Snake.

[ApolloCloud]

There is a whole school of literary theory that would disagree with this quite vehemently. They would argue that verisimilitude offers the most cogent way to view the world and further the narrative of humanity. It is by seeing the real that we begin to see ourselves. Ultimately I think that maybe you are arguing the Platonic form of mimesis (though I could be wrong) and if that's the case then I would maintain that your tastes differ from others and that doesn't mean that one is surperior.

Well as I was saying some level of verisimilitude may be a requirement in enabling coherent understanding and relatability, but once that requirement has been reached, I personally believe that the further you then diverge away from it the greater the capacity for creative excellence.

[ApolloCloud]

Also, where is the idea that originality is dead in this day and age coming from? It appears to be more of an idealistic notion than anything else. While it is true that the capacity for originality lessens over a period of time that sees the application of originality, you're not in a position to say that that capacity has dwindled to nothing. I can give you numerous recent stories that have been thoroughly original and I'd credit most of my own with the same characteristic. Originality still exists, it's just becoming rarer and more difficult to implement. The moment originality is dead is the moment art becomes a thing of the past.

[ApolloCloud]

Also, may I ask how the number of stars for threads is awarded?

[Jamin101]

AdmiralCheez nailed this thread down on the middle pages and apollo doesnt have a counter argument/doesnt understand.



Two character profiles were given, that means the characters were fleshed out. You were asked to do this for cloud and listed his biography but thats not the same thing. You notice when describing Mordin he doesnt say he is special forces, doesnt mention gennophage, salarians, krogan or anything whereas to show clouds "emotions" you just listed the plot of the game.

[ApolloCloud]

"doesnt understand"



I understand that AdmiralCheez was choosing to use some very random and far from pertinent criteria to discuss these characters, criteria that neither did he outline in an entirely clear manner beforehand and criteria that I had no interest in engaging in.



There are many different elements of characterisation, and with respect to the point I was making (Cloud being a deep, complex, and original character) the information I was detailing was far more relevant, aside from being far more impressive than an arbitrary personality description.



I also understand that the idea of how fleshed out Mass Effect's characters are was never really in question in this thread and even if AdmiralCheez made the most compelling argument about how compelling the Mass Effect characters are next to Cloud it would still be inconsequential with respect to "nail[ing] this thread down".

[Praetor Knight]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Anyways, would somebody be able to explain what exactly it is about Mass Effect that they appear to be so enamored by?

How does one nail down an opinion anyway?





And both games are incredibly underrated!

[danitiwa]

Personally I think Mass Effect 2 has weird story flow compared to it's predecessor, but it's definately among some of the top most enjoyable games I've played lately.

Apollo you might want to calm down on the quadruple posting.

Modifié par danitiwa, 08 février 2011 - 11:01 .

[Ahglock]

JHU_P4NDA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Explain to me why I love Mass Effect but dislike both Star Wars and Star Trek then?

Did you just ask people to explain your own opinions to you?

While you're at it, please tell me why I love lemons but hate limes.

Hold on, you don't like limes.  That like stops you from drinking mai tais. 

As for the main topic.  Yeah a lot of JRPGs had more unique stories, FF 7 was unique and clouds character was deep.  But, the game play/style of JRPGs is such that you could have better stories.  They were and usually are more based on the concept of you are a passanger on a train watching events out the window instead of the protagonist shaping the story.  It is a lot easier to write a good story when you don't have to worry about pesky players screwing things up.  As tech progresses you are more capable of having western design where you are the protagonist and still have deep stories with room on your hard drive for more. 

And yes Mass Effect does not have a particularly original story, or sci-fi setting.  It doe snot matter because it was still a fun setting and story.  Commando, was that orignal for an arnold movie, no.  Was it awesome, yes. 

[ShamieGTX]

the only reason I clicked this is because whenever I hear or read Overrated on a Videogame website is because I get my hopes up about someone thats going to "educatedly and wisely" going to review how bad the CoD series games are now...

[fromtheblackpast]

now official: apollocloud jerks off to his pseudo-intellectual posts.



seriously now. im pretty sure you yourself dont know anymore what your point was anyway. maybe you should write a book about how overrated mass effect is. it just wouldnt sell that well, probably.

[Raanz]

This thread made me grin....I must keep telling myself this is a discussion board.

OP: I'm curious, sincerely.....why did you post this? Are you studying creative writing or pompous musings and pseudo-intellectual examinations of modern video game writing?

Really, this post seems so self-aggrandizing to me.

[ArchDemonXIII]

ApolloCloud wrote...

 The moment originality is dead is the moment art becomes a thing of the past.

 You're forgetting one important element of art... execution. I'm not saying originality is a bad thing, but saying something can't be art because it's not wholly original is basically like saying the Mona Lisa isn't art because it's just a portrait.

 Art is, and always will be, subjective. The fact that you're trying to define it using rigid structure shows you couldn't be missing the point more if you aimed in the opposite direction.

Also,  an expansive  vocabulary denotes knowledge, not intellect. It's more impressive to understand the concepts (like what an opinion is) than to be able to express it eloquently. Not that I can't comprehend your vernacular, it just irks me that people trying to foist their beliefs on others tend to think doing so with multi-syllable wording gives them greater weight.

[Shepherd10]

fromtheblackpast wrote...

now official: apollocloud jerks off to his pseudo-intellectual posts.

seriously now. im pretty sure you yourself dont know anymore what your point was anyway. maybe you should write a book about how overrated mass effect is. it just wouldnt sell that well, probably.

I agree with you completely. This entire thread was made by the OP so that he could "educate" us about what makes something innovative and what makes it unoriginal. Seeing as how he appears to be a "writer" himself, whom none of us have ever heard of, and he supposedly knows about this subject and has the experience. 

[ApolloCloud]

The value of art is subjective.



The definition is not.



The artistry behind a portrait is similar to the artistry behind photography (with the addition of there being a futher divide between portait and true image, allowing room for deviation from reality), where the originality of it lies in the original capture of an element of the real world, an element that will usually be of some intent of notability.

[Stupidus]

I can't believe you guys are letting this trollfest go on. It's clear Apollo pirated the game and is being ungrateful towards it.

[Bogsnot1]

ApolloCloud wrote...
The value of art is subjective.

The definition is not.

The artistry behind a portrait is similar to the artistry behind photography (with the addition of there being a futher divide between portait and true image, allowing room for deviation from reality), where the originality of it lies in the original capture of an element of the real world, an element that will usually be of some intent of notability.

The definition of art is subjective. I look at pieces in museums of modern art, and immediately think "Thats crap, how can anybody call that art?"  I may not think its art, but others do.
Go have a look at Andres Serrano's work, and you tell me if its art of not. I say no.
http://en.wikipedia..../Andres_Serrano

[ApolloCloud]

I'm going to kindly ask you to stop bullying me otherwise I will have no choice but to report you to the administrative team and have you removed from these boards and your DLC priviliges disabled.

[Bogsnot1]

Stupidus wrote...

I can't believe you guys are letting this trollfest go on. It's clear Apollo pirated the game and is being ungrateful towards it.

That is indeed a valid point.
Apollo, register your game if you want your opinion to have any weight. Until you do, you will be considered henceforth a pirating troll, whose opinion is worth less (and smells more) than what I excreted from my buttocks this morning.

[Stupidus]

ApolloCloud wrote...

I'm going to kindly ask you to stop bullying me otherwise I will have no choice but to report you to the administrative team and have you removed from these boards and your DLC priviliges disabled.

Okay now I know you're just trolling. You come on one of the most mannered and mature forums I've been on in a long time and now you're trying to threaten us by reporting to forum mods which will have us removed, and DLCs disabled?

[ApolloCloud]

Art doesn't have to be of personal value to be art. Modern colloquial usage of the word "art" assumes a level of personal approval but the true meaning of the word, as is the meaning of it in the context that I am using it, does not differentiate by personal value. Art is simply an imagining that differentiates from reality.