15 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninche]

Hi all,

I'm attempting to build a rogue that can use both the bow and daggers for any situation. Since later game rogues do more damage with auto hit then abilities, this rogue focuses on the sustainables and passive talents to max out DPS, followed by utility and survivability. Utitlity is picking locks, stuns and disarming traps. Survivability is dexterity and Evasion. By taking only talents that do these things, the rogue can afford to be ranged and melee. So when they or the mage pull agro, or they start a fight stealth behind the emissaries or are simply ambushed they can switch to blades and stab/stun away!

Note: Bows and Daggers deal damage based on 50% of Strength and 50% of Dexterity, thus through lethality (cunning = strength), you get the max damage you can out of your stat allocation.
However the down side is your defence and hit won't be as high (as pure dexterity). I'm hoping Evasion and the 3 talents saved on lock picking make up for this loss.

Here is my build so far and reasons for these choices.

Strength -- (With items and fade I'll have enough for armour)
Dexterity 35 (For Evasion)
Willpower -- (The only skills used are Dirty Fighting, Riptose and Scatter Shot. Pluss you get willpower from gear)
Magic --
Cunning Max (The Damage stat, also save talents on lock picking)
Constitution -- (Shouldn't be getting hit)

ROGUE
3 Dirty Fighting, Coup de Grace (A stun and improves melee dps with easier backstabs and stun crits)
4 Lethality, Evasion (Lethality make cunning provide damage and Evasion gives survivability)
1 Deft Hands (With so much cunning only 1 rank is needed)
2 Stealth (Enough to stealth behind a mage or disarm traps before my team comes in)

DUAL WEAPON
1 Duel Weapon Training (Essential for off hand damage)
2 Riptose (A second stun with Dirty fighting.)
3 Momentum (All a melee rogue needs for DPS )

ARCHER
2 Melee Archer, Aim (Aim for bosses)
4 Scatter Shot (Rapid shot for light mobs, Shattering for the bosses and Scatter Shot is a no brainer)

SPECIALIZATIONS
1 Bard (Group utlity of stamina regen)
1 Duelist (Extra hit on those bosses)

Concerns and later talents (please give opinions and criticism!) 

Duel-Weapon Finesse, Expert - Do these have a large impact on DPS?
Melee Archer, Aim - Melee archer isn't really needed since you switch to daggers in melee anyway. Aim is just for bosses. Is Aim very effective? 
Rapid Shot - Is Rapid shot worth using, and if so does it stack with Rapid Aim (from items)?
Other - Maxing out the Bard and Duelist tree offer situational skills, as well as more points in stealth.

Extra information: I play on Insane mode, with no pots or 'knock outs' of any party members. Morrigan, Sten and Shale.
Evil End-Justifies-the-Means group like true Grey Wardens! 

Feed back would be appreciated! 

Modifié par Ninche, 07 février 2011 - 12:19 .

[Ninche]

After quick testing via the awakening starting characters I've come to the realization that Aim isn't worth it (at least not for white and yellow mobs), so the Duelist line may be preferable (as they affect both ranged and melee damage. If anyone has any information on Aim concerning bosses I would greatly appreciate it!

[ussnorway]

Late game, I find that auto-attack with some rapid arm gear is the way to go.

[ColaQueen]

Great topic, I actually just built an archer rogue with the same idea in mind to use both dual weapons and and archery.



I was thinking of Assasin tree to go with coup de grace and the ultimate backstab damages.

[Mr_Steph]

I've had evasion on such a character before and I was highly annoyed. Both when in melee and ranged mode that damn evasion cancelled out way too many attacks for me and when in ranged mode I had to re-target (clicking) the enemy every time

Aim can be very good, but only if you have rapid aim stuff on you and if you get master archer or whatever it is called. Repeater gloves + aim and you will fire just as fast as in rapid aim mode, but do a heck of a lot more damage...and since you have a lot of cunning and going with bard you can also have SoC activated...just activate SoC first and then aim.

If worried about survivability I would get max stealth or keen defense instead of evasion because of what I mentioned earlier. You are no good if your attack get's interrupted as much as mine did because of the animation.

@SilverSentinal

I guess it is a matter of what you want. With bard and duelist you get 2 specs that help you in both modes while MoD is the only thing you will use in archery and you will lose a good boost in attack and defense from duelist or a good party buff from being a bard with a high cunning score.

Modifié par Mr_Steph, 07 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Last Darkness]

As a concept I am for it, it seems fun and intresting.

In practice, well this isnt a MMORPG or a Tabletop so your options are restricting and just not that great of a option. Going all the way melee or range is infinetly better then doing a mix and simpler and easier to do.



Btw Range/Melee mix Rogues PWN in the the Dragonage Tabletop game.

[termokanden]

DW rogues can easily use bows anyway. So I'd say go all the way melee and just keep bows as an option anyway. There's nothing stopping you from using them. By the end of the game, you might even have some spare points to spend on archery.

[Ninche]

SilverSentinel wrote...

Great topic, I actually just built an archer rogue with the same idea in mind to use both dual weapons and and archery.

I was thinking of Assasin tree to go with coup de grace and the ultimate backstab damages.

Assasination would only effect you in melee mode though, and after briefly playing around with this char I've noticed you switch to melee out of neccesity only (to stun or when someone comes in melee range).

Mr_Steph wrote...

I've had evasion on such a character before and I was highly annoyed. Both when in melee and ranged mode that damn evasion cancelled out way too many attacks for me and when in ranged mode I had to re-target (clicking) the enemy every time

Aim can be very good, but only if you have rapid aim stuff on you and if you get master archer or whatever it is called. Repeater gloves + aim and you will fire just as fast as in rapid aim mode, but do a heck of a lot more damage...and since you have a lot of cunning and going with bard you can also have SoC activated...just activate SoC first and then aim.

If worried about survivability I would get max stealth or keen defense instead of evasion because of what I mentioned earlier. You are no good if your attack get's interrupted as much as mine did because of the animation.

Ideally I shouldn't be using evasion much unless I'm in melee mode anyway. Enemy archers haven't been that much of a nuisence in previous play throughs. Eventually I'd get Keen defence anywy, but if it's as good as evasion I'd get that first (10 Defence = 20% dodge? surely not). The problem with max stealth is that I stop doing damage, and it directs the enemy to another party member.

So aim isn't worth it without Master Archery? Ahh more talent points, better aim for all the talent point books and if your evil take any oppurtunity to get more talent points.

Last Darkness wrote...

As a concept I am for it, it seems fun and intresting. 
In practice, well this isnt a MMORPG or a Tabletop so your options are restricting and just not that great of a option. Going all the way melee or range is infinetly better then doing a mix and simpler and easier to do.

Btw Range/Melee mix Rogues PWN in the the Dragonage Tabletop game.

termokanden wrote...

DW rogues can easily use bows anyway. So I'd say go all the way melee and just keep bows as an option anyway. There's nothing stopping you from using them. By the end of the game, you might even have some spare points to spend on archery.

I disagree guys. Min maxing works in theory, but in Dragon Age once you have good gear, runestones and buffs (aka. momentum), using abilities only hinders damage. The only ones you should use are stuns for utilities (which my build has more of then pure builds).
Yes Dw Rogues can use bows but one with rapid shot/aim/shatttering shot/etc their damage is far better, for very little melee damage lost.
Lastly DW rogue wastes dps as it runs round looking for a back to stab (pluss its borring to do in combat), and Ranged rogues loose dps when a mob comes up to hit them and either they have to run back, or a tank has to run back and take agro. In all cases you are loosing damage with running. I believe this build offers more utility and survivability for barely any DPS loss (if any). If you can present reasons why I'm wrong I'd love to hear them!

[Mr_Steph]

In terms of "defense/defense" no, keen defense is not as good as evasion, but you will kill faster because your attack won't get interrupted so much. And how exactly do you stop doing damage with max stealth? It's an automatic crit every 10 seconds that will lose all aggro on you that a warrior should pick up.



And no, aim is still useful without master archery, MA just makes it 50% better than it already was. As long as you have rapid aim gear on aim is worth it imo. SoC + aim with rapid aim gear can kill a lot of dudes pretty darn quick since your crit chance will be quite high.

[Ninche]

If I can stealth why melee in any case? The original reason for the idea of making a melee/ranged rogue was that when a mob hits my ranged (aka rogue/mage), that my rogue can handle it without having my melees run about (loosing their damage). It also means I can handle more mobs at once, since I don't use pots or a dedicated 'healer'.



Ok MA seems worth the 2 point investment then.

[Last Darkness]

How about theres pure archer builds that hit for 100-120 damage every single attack and dont have to worry about melee range since melee archer allows one to shoot someone point blank in the face.



Theres duel wield builds that hit for 300+ damage a second.



In both cases they still have great survivability.



Like I said, your needlessly spliting your character into half a character. I like the concept/idea/fantasy of it but the fact still remains. You will never be better then a pure Ranged or Melee build.



Moot Point anyways, since as Termokanden was pointing out. As a Dex or Cun Rogue you can slip in Stealth mode with your Bow, Snipe a target with Arrow of Slaying(Mage ?) drop Scattering Shot, and continue your fight or switch to melee and proceed to melee whoop the enemies. At high level you can easily have a style and a half maxed out. If you dont have Bow abilities yet you can still snipe until enemies come in melee range then switch to melee and pwn.



Also if your tank has to run to you to get threat off you, you need to build your tank better. Search the forums there splenty of tank builds around here that will never loose threat from a target. Im fond of the AoE Tank setup.

[Ninche]

And where does this build loose so much damage? I think you keep missing out the point that half the abilities in each tree are skills not worth using over auto hit or incredibly minor damage boosts, which is why you don't loose much by not maxing them out. Plus you have even more stuns.



Aye stealth does work fine, I guess it's a preference thing. My groups tend to not have a dedicated tank so I like all my party members to be able to hold their own. I know how to build a tank (threaten and taunt..not very hard really), I simply don't use them often because the game is easy enough as it is. Also you should be targeting mages/archers before the melee mobs, so your tank may not always have agro of everything.

[termokanden]

Again, why do people claim you lose SO much damage running from target to target with a melee character? It's simply not true. Mostly because it doesn't take all that long to run and because melee characters tend to do much more damage in Origins to begin with. But also because only rarely do enemies NOT bunch up.



By the way, I use the melee special attacks to take down high priority targets like mages. Open from stealth with two stuns and they're pretty much always dead before they can do anything. They're not really for damage but rather control. I don't care if the damage boost from them is minimal. I just want to kill mages before they can cast spells. One of the very best ways of doing that is starting out stealthed and using stuns.

[Ninche]

Well I've only done one play through, but frankly you are loosing damage as they run (or do abilities), and in most fights there are ranged mobs. But to be honest this game is easy in any case, I'm just arguing the strengths of the build. I could suggest a build with no sustainables, and you would still be able to complete the game pretty easily.



Did you even read my build? It has both stuns...

[ThomasBlaine]

Hmm, I tried almost this exact build once, and it worked decently throughout the first half of Highever Castle. Then I got bored and impatient. Frankly, keeping your tank in check and switching weapons every other minute is a real drag against the many, many weaker mobs, most of which simply isn't worth it, when running up and bashing them with dual whatevers is much simpler and easier to deal with at large.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 28 février 2011 - 05:45 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Ninche wrote...

ROGUE
3 Dirty Fighting, Coup de Grace (A stun and improves melee dps with easier backstabs and stun crits)
4 Lethality, Evasion (Lethality make cunning provide damage and Evasion gives survivability) *Don't get Evasion. Dark Passage doesn't cause animation to break your attack timer.
1 Deft Hands (With so much cunning only 1 rank is needed) Correct.
2 Stealth (Enough to stealth behind a mage or disarm traps before my team comes in) Max Stealth. Reapply in combat for free criticals.

DUAL WEAPON
1 Duel Weapon Training (Essential for off hand damage) 3 levels in passive abilities.**
2 Riptose (A second stun with Dirty fighting.)
3 Momentum (All a melee rogue needs for DPS )

ARCHER
2 Melee Archer, Aim (Aim for bosses) Aim is slow. Other tricks improve auto-attack damage and critical rate for more damage with out Aim. more later.
4 Scatter Shot (Rapid shot for light mobs, Shattering for the bosses and Scatter Shot is a no brainer)  Rapid shot is less dps.

SPECIALIZATIONS
1 Bard (Group utlity of stamina regen) Use Courage not valor.
1 Duelist (Extra hit on those bosses) Melee weapons, activate Pinpoint Strikes, Switch to Bow, 100% criticals.

Duel-Weapon Finesse, Expert - Do these have a large impact on DPS? Passive damage increase is good. **
Melee Archer, Aim - Melee archer isn't really needed since you switch to daggers in melee anyway. Aim is just for bosses. Is Aim very effective? Not with out rapid aim gear which would not suit your melee stance unless you feel like switching gear everytime you switch weapon sets.
Rapid Shot - Is Rapid shot worth using, and if so does it stack with Rapid Aim (from items)?  No and no.
Other - Maxing out the Bard and Duelist tree offer situational skills, as well as more points in stealth.

*
Wiki-
"Evasion is a talent to avoid. Why? Because evasion animation: (a) takes some significant time to execute; ( plays during attack and wait phases, effectively cancelling actions assigned to a character. A 15% chance of evading while triggering evasion animation means your actions will get interrupted by physical attacks 15% of the time. Yes, you won't get hit, but you won't hit, either, and that is much worse -- the DPS trade-off is very bad."

**
Dual-Weapon Expert
The character has significant experience with two-weapon fighting, gaining +2.5% melee critical chance, as well as allows the character to inflict bleeding lacerations in Elite and Boss creatures dealing (2+([Character level]/5)+1) damage every 1.5 seconds for (2+([Character level]/5)+1) seconds.
Maximum damage and duration in origins is 8 damage and 8 secs. Maximum ticks will be 5.
Maximum damage and duration in awakening is 10 damage and 10 secs. Maximum ticks will be 6.


Note-
If the character with Dual-Weapon Expert has a self-inflicted damage sustainable activated (Aura of Pain, Blood Thirst and/or The Tainted Blade),  Dual-Weapon Expert begins to deal damage over time to the character. The appropriate icon appears over the ability bar. Unofficial fix for PC available here. <also fixes Shale


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Good luck,

Suicidailbaby

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 mars 2011 - 02:50 .