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Toombs, Dr. Wayne, and peaceful resolutions with double-digit body counts


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#1
FlyingSquirrel

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One of my few "peeves" about the Mass Effect universe is that quite a few of the missions/assignments reach a point where they offer you a peaceful resolution to whatever the conflict at hand is, but only after blasting your way through a horde of nameless, faceless "bad guys" who seem to have no purpose other than to stand there and shoot at you. I'm not saying that there aren't sometimes logical reasons why this would happen, or even that *all* of the examples are necessarily problematic (tracking down Fist in Chora's Den works pretty well, IMO), just that in some cases, it *feels* wrong. If it were a movie script, I'd tell the screenwriter something along the lines of, "these scenes don't really belong together."

The assignment with Toombs and Dr. Wayne in ME1 is probably the worst offender in my book, because frankly, I *don't* think it makes much sense, for several reasons:

First, when Hackett gives you the misison, he says that several scientists have already been murdered. So why is Toombs standing there, seemingly hesitating to pull the trigger, if he already had no problem killing several other scientists? It seems like Wayne would be a dead man once Toombs got his hands on him, unless Toombs is now starting to feel regret over what he's done and doesn't want to kill anyone else. Which I could believe, except...

...there are all those mercs that are shooting at you. I have a tough time believing Toombs could recruit and pay for a whole merc squad for this, but even if he could, he has to have noticed that they're under fire out there, so again, why hasn't he already killed Wayne by the time Shepard gets to him? And that makes his not having killed Wayne already even more surprising - not only has he murdered several scientists already, but he's willing to throw his own people up there against fellow Alliance soldiers and potentially kill them as well. And yet this is the guy who's still standing there with one of his tormentors at gunpoint and hasn't killed him yet?

I suppose the other possibility is that the mercs are Cerberus and are there to rescue Dr. Wayne (or to make sure Toombs and Wayne *both* die in order to cover up evidence), and that they'd still rather kill Shepard and his/her companions to keep this quiet than allow the Alliance to interfere. But there's not really anything in the dialogue to back that up, and as I recall, they are simply identified (by the game) as mercs, not Cerberus agents.

Now, I suppose this *could* all be rationalized by some complicated psychology - Toombs does seem unstable, and maybe he has an easier time dealing with the killing when others are doing it than when he's doing it himself - but again, the game doesn't really explain it very well. As I recall, the dialogue has him say something to Shepard along the lines of "I don't have anything against you," but it doesn't give Shepard a response choice along the lines of, "Um, what about all those mercs of yours that just tried to kill me?" (Of course, the dialogue also seems to proceed as if Shepard had been on Akuze even if you don't pick the Sole Survivor background, so go figure.)

In the end, it left me feeling like the designers just decided the players needed to shoot at something before getting to the conclusion of the assignment - it would be like if you couldn't go talk to Talitha at the docking bay without first getting attacked by a random pack of crazed varren. For me, at least, it felt unnecessary and out of sync with how the scene eventually plays out.

Other examples of this, in my book, would be the biotics who take Chairman Burns hostage, Harkin's mercs in Garrus's ME2 loyalty mission, the crazed test subjects on Dr. Saleon's ship, and the Blood Pack in the Pragia test facility. Now some of those might actually make some logical sense - for example, on Garrus's loyalty mission, I could believe that Harkin would throw his people out there as cannon fodder but then surrender once he himself is cornered - but on a more basic level, it *felt* jarring and, again, made me wonder if the designers just thought we needed another battle sequence. And on a couple of them, I even just had Shepard sprint past all the faceless hostiles to get to the scene at the end rather than shooting them. Personally, I'd rather just have the assignments go straight to the dialogue scene rather than put us through another shoot-em-up that doesn't feel like it belongs, and, in the cases I mentioned, is not even all that tactically challenging.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 07 février 2011 - 02:09 .


#2
James2912

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yeah I agree it doesn't make sense. They just did that for gameplay reasons. Its more fun if you get to shoot stuff up. Its stupid but whatever.

#3
Zulu_DFA

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This thing becomes very acute during Garrus' loyalty mission.



You've just blown away a couple of dozen of mercs only to get to Sidonis, who is basically a merc too, but with all the reason to get blown away on sight, but suddenly you can become mushy and let him live...Lolwhut?!



But there are Leagues of Mass Effect, and the Mooks are mooks, poor bastards!

#4
Interactive Civilian

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thing becomes very acute during Garrus' loyalty mission.

You've just blown away a couple of dozen of mercs only to get to Sidonis, who is basically a merc too, but with all the reason to get blown away on sight, but suddenly you can become mushy and let him live...Lolwhut?

There's a difference between assassinating (or allowing the assassination of) an unarmed and broken individual and fighting and killing those who are trying to kill you.

I don't know how you role-play your character, but for mine, Shepard was constantly trying to get Garrus to see that killing Sidonis would not actually set anything right and would not be the right thing to do. Just like my Shepard did with Dr. Saleon in ME1. It's interesting to contrast those two situations, too. With Dr. Saleon, he tried to fight back and ended up dying. Garrus asked what the point was, and Shepard responded with something like "You can't control how others will react, but you can control your own actions". With Sidonis, Shepard kept trying to remind Garrus of that and show him that justice isn't about petty revenge. So in the end Shepard stands in the way of the bullet until there is enough information for Garrus to get the point.

Now, I understand that not everyone plays that role, and it is a good thing for them that the game gives about 5 chances for you to step out of the way and let Garrus take the shot. But, I, for one, am very happy that the opportunity to prevent Garrus from killing Sidonis was there, because that fits perfectly inline with who my character is and what that Shepard wanted to do for Garrus.

So, I'm not seeing why you have an "Lolwhut?" response. If that isn't the role your Shepard plays or it feels out of character, then simply step aside and let Garrus take the shot.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 07 février 2011 - 03:02 .


#5
The Unfallen

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thing becomes very acute during Garrus' loyalty mission.

You've just blown away a couple of dozen of mercs only to get to Sidonis, who is basically a merc too, but with all the reason to get blown away on sight, but suddenly you can become mushy and let him live...Lolwhut?!

But there are Leagues of Mass Effect, and the Mooks are mooks, poor bastards!


Why do you go into every topic and advertise your ideals? Are you so self centered you cannot let go of the fact that not everybody cares? Or, maybe the world doesn't revolve around you? Next time you post a link to another topic advertising something YOU created without regard for the community (this can be equitable to spamming), I'm reporting your post.

#6
Zulu_DFA

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Interactive Civilian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thing becomes very acute during Garrus' loyalty mission.

You've just blown away a couple of dozen of mercs only to get to Sidonis, who is basically a merc too, but with all the reason to get blown away on sight, but suddenly you can become mushy and let him live...Lolwhut?

There's a difference between assassinating (or allowing the assassination of) an unarmed and broken individual and fighting and killing those who are trying to kill you.

Yeah, and they were trying to kill you why? Right, becasue you were up to that assassination.

Despite being mostly renegade, I dispise the idea of killing people to solve just one person's daddy issues. Of course, once the mercs get in the way, there is indeed little room fo manuever, I have to kill them. But backing down on the initial plan makes all that waste of life totally poinltess. And makes Garrus a self-righteous ******.


So, I'm not seeing why you have an "Lolwhut?" response. If that isn't the role your Shepard plays or it feels out of character, then simply step aside and let Garrus take the shot.

That's what I did. And I'll tel you what. If Garrus suddenly hesitated himself when I stepped aside, and told me he was having a change of heart, I'd say "You must be kidding me, Garrus! What about all the mercs we've just wasted in that warehouse? Fuсk you!", and shot Sidonis myself.

"Lolwhut?" is the response of the real-life me to this plot point.

#7
Sajuro

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The Unfallen wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thing becomes very acute during Garrus' loyalty mission.

You've just blown away a couple of dozen of mercs only to get to Sidonis, who is basically a merc too, but with all the reason to get blown away on sight, but suddenly you can become mushy and let him live...Lolwhut?!

But there are Leagues of Mass Effect, and the Mooks are mooks, poor bastards!


Why do you go into every topic and advertise your ideals? Are you so self centered you cannot let go of the fact that not everybody cares? Or, maybe the world doesn't revolve around you? Next time you post a link to another topic advertising something YOU created without regard for the community (this can be equitable to spamming), I'm reporting your post.

Actually he is right on that one, Though I do the peaceful resolutions, it always seems like such moral dissonance for Shepard to talk about a peaceful solution after slaughtering a room full of mercs (because in video games, it is always a slaughter) and it falls under what measure is a mook? I would agree with you that Zulu's conspiracies get old after a very short while, but you can just ignore his posts if you don't like them (I must say though, the kitten army one is good)

#8
Kusy

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I don't feel like everything needs to be explained in a realistic and reasonable way, it's a video game, video games are made from gameplay... otherwise it's not a game, and you don't play it... and I feel that it's something a lot of people forget, sometimes it's better not to digg into something and just enjoy it. All games need mooks - otherwise it would be "Mass Effect: TALKING: the game".

#9
Zulu_DFA

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The Unfallen wrote...

Why do you go into every topic and advertise your ideals? Are you so self centered you cannot let go of the fact that not everybody cares? 


Yes, I'm self -centered, but if you don't care, just don't ever click on the stuff I link. Simple as that.

#10
aeetos21

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Zulu_DFA wrote...
That's what I did. And I'll tel you what. If Garrus suddenly hesitated himself when I stepped aside, and told me he was having a change of heart, I'd say "You must be kidding me, Garrus! What about all the mercs we've just wasted in that warehouse? Fuсk you!", and shot Sidonis myself.

"Lolwhut?" is the response of the real-life me to this plot point.


You mean the mercs from the same organization that led the charge that got Garrus's entire squad killed? Mercs who were causing problems in the wards? Those mercs?

Screw Sidonis, taking Fade's organization down was a worthy side mission all by itself. The fact that it led to the encounter with Sidonis was just a bonus.

#11
Zulu_DFA

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aeetos21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
That's what I did. And I'll tel you what. If Garrus suddenly hesitated himself when I stepped aside, and told me he was having a change of heart, I'd say "You must be kidding me, Garrus! What about all the mercs we've just wasted in that warehouse? Fuсk you!", and shot Sidonis myself.

"Lolwhut?" is the response of the real-life me to this plot point.


You mean the mercs from the same organization that led the charge that got Garrus's entire squad killed? Mercs who were causing problems in the wards? Those mercs?

Screw Sidonis, taking Fade's organization down was a worthy side mission all by itself. The fact that it led to the encounter with Sidonis was just a bonus.

Since the Blue Suns aren't reported to have a practice of murder for their induction, there is all the reason to believe that many of those in that warehouse had never killed anybody or otherwise participated in any morally-reprehensible acts, and had signed on to pay for college or something. It's a no-go as a stripper, if you're a Turian, you know...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 février 2011 - 04:09 .


#12
James2912

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Jeesh personal attacks and calling somebody self centered is considered harassment and it is a reportable offense. All of Zulus links are about Mass Effect thus not spam.

Anyways I agree mooks are needed in every game, however there are smart ways to include them and dumb ways to include them, no  comment on details. 

Modifié par James2912, 07 février 2011 - 04:09 .


#13
Interactive Civilian

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah, and they were trying to kill you why? Right, becasue you were up to that assassination.

Hey, they didn't have to get in your way. Harkin told them to attack you, and they followed his orders. Their lives were forfeit the moment they started shooting. Had Harkin given Garrus and Shepard a chance to talk upon seeing them, rather than running like a wuss and ordering his minions to kill you, there would have been no need for the fighting.

So, yes, it is still different than attempting to assassinate an unarmed, unaware individual.

Regarding your suggestion that they were just college kids trying to pay their ways without knowing what they were getting into, see the conversation in Clerks regarding contractors working on the Death Star.
:P


:whistle:

(yes, I realize that is addressed on the "What measure is a mook?" tvtropes page... this post is not meant to be entirely serious)

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 07 février 2011 - 04:24 .


#14
AdmiralCheez

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thing becomes very acute during Garrus' loyalty mission.

You've just blown away a couple of dozen of mercs only to get to Sidonis, who is basically a merc too, but with all the reason to get blown away on sight, but suddenly you can become mushy and let him live...Lolwhut?!

But there are Leagues of Mass Effect, and the Mooks are mooks, poor bastards!

I love videogame logic, don't you?

I suppose the excuse can be made that the "bad guys" shot first, self-defense and all, blah blah blah.

Also, Zulu, I lol'd at your blog.  God forbid I start to warm up to you.

#15
GuardianAngel470

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Wait, you actually rescue Dr. Wayne? I shoot him every time. I hadn't actually realized there was a peaceful solution because killing him is so justified, especially if you are sole survivor.



So yeah, I pretty much don't care about any incongruities on that mission if you're heartless (or spineless as the case may be) enough to let that guy live.

#16
The Big Nothing

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I let Toombs shoot him. It seems to give him a sense of peace before he shoots himself.



I also like that Shepard is burdened with the choice.

#17
James2912

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I saved all of these people because I got drunk and forgot I was playing renegade.

#18
AdmiralCheez

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James2912 wrote...

I saved all of these people because I got drunk and forgot I was playing renegade.

You have no idea how hard I laughed at this.  Cookie for you!

#19
1xs3thx1

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Mr.Kusy wrote...

I don't feel like everything needs to be explained in a realistic and reasonable way, it's a video game, video games are made from gameplay... otherwise it's not a game, and you don't play it... and I feel that it's something a lot of people forget, sometimes it's better not to digg into something and just enjoy it. All games need mooks - otherwise it would be "Mass Effect: TALKING: the game".


I can certainly see where you are coming from, and it makes sense, but I think this is highly relevant.

Modifié par 1xs3thx1, 07 février 2011 - 04:43 .


#20
wizardryforever

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I agree that sometimes the fights don't really mesh with the reason you're there, but since I can count the most egregious examples of that on one hand, I don't really think it's that big of a deal.  More of a nitpick than anything.  Not that nitpicks are bad really.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Wait, you actually rescue Dr. Wayne? I shoot him every time. I hadn't actually realized there was a peaceful solution because killing him is so justified, especially if you are sole survivor.

So yeah, I pretty much don't care about any incongruities on that mission if you're heartless (or spineless as the case may be) enough to let that guy live.


I actually find it better to let him live, if only so that he stands trial and it shows the galaxy just how ****ed up Cerberus really is.  You get an e-mail from Toombs in ME2 if you do this, and it's appropriately titled "What the hell, Shepard?"  Toombs does not care for your decision to work with Cerberus at all, and threatens you.  There's also a news report that Cerberus is being investigated based on the testimony of Dr. Wayne.  If he dies, the truth dies with him, essentially.

#21
Gemini1179

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Samara's Loyalty mission, Thane's, and to an extent, Tali's gave us mostly-non-combat content that was entertaining and story driven. Besides, you approach Harkin with guns lowered to talk, he's the one who instigates the mayhem.

#22
Guest_m14567_*

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If you really want you can do careful squad positioning and using basically only overload, pull and Shepard's elbow (assuming Shepard can deliver a non-fatal elbow) to do no organic fatalities on Garrus' loyalty mission.



At the start of the mission your squadmates will shoot at the two blue suns but other than that you can do it without you even firing on the mercs either.

#23
Zulu_DFA

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Gemini1179 wrote...

you approach Harkin with guns lowered to talk, he's the one who instigates the mayhem.


That was a case of an "idiot ball". Starting a fight before knowing what the opponent is up to is bad for business, Harkin should have understood that.

I am all for skippable firefights in the Mass Effect series, and the interrupt system provides such an opportunity.

For example, in the LotSB there should have been an option (renegade interrupt) to kill Vasir's hostage to put her down (skip the boss fight and go directly to Vasir's dying scene).

The same could have been done with Harkin: a paragon interrupt ("Stow it, Harkin, we just want to talk!") should have opened a conversation with Harkin, and if you had enough paragon/renegade, you could persuade him to give up on Sidonis. If you failed, and he refused, then the fighting would ensue.

And if you are there just for the "pew-pew" stuff, don't take the interrupts.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 février 2011 - 06:17 .


#24
AkiKishi

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Zulu_DFA wrote...


For example in the LosTB there wshould have been an option (renegade interrupt) to kill Vasir's hostage to put her down (skip the boss fight and go directly to Vasir's dying scene.)


Or just shot her in the back of the head while she was limping away.

#25
Zulu_DFA

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


For example in the LotSB there should have been an option (renegade interrupt) to kill Vasir's hostage to put her down (skip the boss fight and go directly to Vasir's dying scene).


Or just shot her in the back of the head while she was limping away.


Nah, kinetic barriers! She'd have time to duck. But when she took the hostage, a single round could penetrate them through the hostage's body.