276 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

@Dean_the_Young

http://www.youtube.c...BM7m96MU#t=119s

Yep, sure looks like Morinth just put up a convincing argument. No mind-powers there, no sir.

Modifié par JKoopman, 10 février 2011 - 09:07 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Hey, what do you know!



No mind-powers shown: just generic Asari black-eye mating sign, used by an Asari you're about to sleep with.





It's almost like Morinth's fulfilling Samara's warning of a poise and powerful emotional appeal that Shepard will find him/herself attracted to her!



...nah. Must be mind-control, even though absolutely nothing else in the franchise supports such!

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dean_the_Young wote...
Now you know what a Paragon/Renegade check looks like from the other side. You don't need a convincing argument. You just need to be persuasive, which is a separate thing: there are all sort of reasons other than 'convincing arguments' that get people to do things they otherwise wouldn't. Fear, love, lust, trust, empathy. Emotional appeals, generally.

I guess it's here we disagree. Whenever Shepard pulls off a P/R check, it's because he manage to be charming, witty, threatning, reasonable enough in order to make the other person reconsider something. What Morinth is doing is convincing Shepard to bow to her every whim and commit suicide, that's a tad extreme don't you think?

Also why does Shepard sound so strange and unnormal if he was simply persuaded to do something.

Certainly no one can argue that Shepard having sex with Morinth after recruiting her was anything but his/her (and the player's) own will.

True. But that is a diffrent situation than the one that happens in the apartment. Morinth isn't trying to dominate Shepard when onboard the Normandy, it's here where she is trying to convince Shepard without the use of jedi-mindtricks, because Morinth knows that Shepard is strong enough to shrug it off.

Asari don't 'make' themselves more attractive against other species wills: the scene is a variation of 'four blind men and an elephant'. No insinuation of forciful conversion of thought is made or implied.

Then whats up with Mordin's comment then?

[Kristofer1]

Even for a renegade shep i can so no logical reason to allow morinth to live. she will try to kill you, or one of your teammates. it is only a matter of time. you will never be able to control her. therefore just kill her remove the threat.

[JKoopman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hey, what do you know!

No mind-powers shown: just generic Asari black-eye mating sign, used by an Asari you're about to sleep with.


It's almost like Morinth's fulfilling Samara's warning of a poise and powerful emotional appeal that Shepard will find him/herself attracted to her!

...nah. Must be mind-control, even though absolutely nothing else in the franchise supports such!

So let's see. Known asari racial mind powers? Check. Morinth having Dominate (eg "mind control") as her character skill? Check. Black eyes and creepy music? Check. "Look into my eyes and tell me you'd kill for me. Anything I want."? Check. Failing to "roll a saving throw" with a Charm/Intimidate dialog = Zombie Shepard? Check. Yep, obviously just a regular old seduction and it's totally consentual. I guess that also explains how Morinth convinced an entire village to worship her, sacrifice their daughters to her and throw away their lives defending her. That must've been one heck of a persuasive argument...

Denial ain't a river in Egypt.

Modifié par JKoopman, 10 février 2011 - 11:43 .

[Schneidend]

Dean, I know you like to play devil's advocate, but it is a canonical fact that Morinth can manipulate people with her mind. It's part of being an ardat-yakshi.



Having a loyalty power that controls the minds of organic targets is different than not being mechanically able to solo three boss-level enemies. The former can be balanced while the latter would break the game.

[Confused_Shepard]

Where are you people even getting the idea that after the Suicide Mission is over, Samara will start killing everyone on the ship. Save for the extreme cases like Jack & Zaeed everyone is more or less innocent. Justicars don't kill people for firing guns they kill people who themselves are hurting innocents

One reason stated is that Shepard killed the Collectors which is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not only are the Collectors non-sapient but they are working for a race that wants to wipe out all space faring species. I am sure one of the Sutra's state: In case of giant squid monsters from outer space that endanger all existence, kill them all.

I'm not even sure whether the Code is a reference/guide or Samara has to literally do what it says. You can call out Grunt for threatening Garrus indirectly but not Samara? Does this mean the crew/squad does not pose any danger from her? I would have loved a convo about this but you know Bioware... dialog takes too much money

Modifié par Confused_Shepard, 11 février 2011 - 01:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

JKoopman wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hey, what do you know!

No mind-powers shown: just generic Asari black-eye mating sign, used by an Asari you're about to sleep with.


It's almost like Morinth's fulfilling Samara's warning of a poise and powerful emotional appeal that Shepard will find him/herself attracted to her!

...nah. Must be mind-control, even though absolutely nothing else in the franchise supports such!

So let's see. Known asari racial mind powers?

None of which are mind-control or hypnosis? Check indeed.

Morinth having Dominate (eg "mind control") as her character skill? Check

Morinth and her mother having gameplay powers never referenced or supported in lore as derivatives of biotic abilities? Check.

And no, the word dominate doesn't imply mind control. Simply control.

Biotics never have been alluded to have mind-control powers of any sort to any race (the reason Asari have inter-racial sexuality isn't biotic in nature), or vampiric abilities (the same distinction of 'cool skill' versus 'lore consistent' applying to Samara).

. Black eyes and creepy music? Check.

Black eyes expected of any asari in mating, and music a foreshadowing of immeninet death?

"Look into my eyes and tell me you'd kill for me. Anything I want."? Check.

That it in anyway indicating any intrusive influence being pushed onto Shepard? Not check.

Failing to "roll a saving throw" with a Charm/Intimidate dialog = Zombie Shepard? Check.

An expected of an artists depiction Shepard being emotionally overwhelmed by Morinth's attraction, just as Samara warned Morinth could do for completely not-invasive reasons? Yes.

Yep, obviously just a regular old seduction and it's totally consentual.

No, it's not just a regular old seduction, but it isn't forcing Shepard against her will.

I guess that also explains how Morinth convinced an entire village to worship her, sacrifice their daughters to her and throw away their lives defending her. That must've been one heck of a persuasive argument...

You are familiar with cult leaders, yes? People who have been known, by personality and charm, to convince people to murder not only other people, but also themselves and their own families?

Not to mention all the other sorts of public-movements built around singular individuals that defy dispassionate logic.

You're fixating on 'argument' as if it has to be something logical, unemotional, and dispassionately convincing, when it doesn't. It never has, nor does Mass Effect afix by that standard.

Denial ain't a river in Egypt.

And you're indulging freely.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 février 2011 - 01:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

I guess it's here we disagree. Whenever Shepard pulls off a P/R check, it's because he manage to be charming, witty, threatning, reasonable enough in order to make the other person reconsider something. What Morinth is doing is convincing Shepard to bow to her every whim and commit suicide, that's a tad extreme don't you think?

No, because such things do happen, and especially when it comes to sex with a physically charming person, which even if you don't find Morinth to be the lore and game pretty much beats you with a stick.

People can be led into sex against the greater interests, and even their livelyhood, because there's a point at which your body doesn't care what your mind is thinking, and biology pre-empts logic. You don't have to decrease someone's mind to get them to be willing to be stupid, you just have to play their body and emotions: you can cloud their mind with anger, distract their attention with sorrow, weather their resolve by physical exhaustion. This is part of why teenagers are so stupid at times, and adult the next minute: their hormones are haywire, and their bodies aren't stable. Hormones, however, never go away: the end of puberty is the end of the worst swings, not the end of hormones.

The physical body affects the mind, and there's very few things your body will tell your mind to shut up about as much as sex.

There's an immersion gap because we, the player, are sitting in our room, not having hormones play haywire, whereas Shepard is there. We are seeing things from a perspective of disassociated logic. Shepard is not. Because of that gap, we expect Shepard to feel what we currently feel, even though if we had attractive ladies (or men) with bad reputations charming us, we'd find ourselves not carring about their reputations.

Though the writers tell us this is going to happen (Samara's lecture/warning about Morinth's charming nature and laser-precise empathy allure), their means of showing it are limited. When Shepard stops being a position in a logic and control (after passing a few low-ball persuasion checks/investigation tidbits to keep Morinth's interest), seeing The Invincible Unmovable Commander Shepard moved (unless, of course, the Shepard has the mental strength not to be) is jarring to their ideal of a Sue-ish Shepard, and so players will invent explanations that pardon their Shepard of any weakness by insisting an invented foul play... even though the basis for Shepard's weakness was already openly and explicitly told.

Also why does Shepard sound so strange and unnormal if he was simply persuaded to do something.

Because Shepard isn't supposed to be persuaded at all, and the artists wanted to drive in that this is a Bad Thing. The dramatic cues are that Morinth's influence is bad, not that it's mind control.

Sort of like how, in Overlord, when Shepard has his eyes hacked, the scene has him stumbling about like a zombie for no reason... and then as soon as he's past the door, he's walking fine, shooting straight, and completely under control.

Asari don't 'make' themselves more attractive against other species wills: the scene is a variation of 'four blind men and an elephant'. No insinuation of forciful conversion of thought is made or implied.

Then whats up with Mordin's comment then?

The basis of a hormonal attraction.

Think 'perfume' everyone finds attractive'.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 février 2011 - 02:10 .

[JKoopman]

Dean... give it up. Morinth isn't just any asari. She's an Ardat-Yakshi. If regular asari can have known mind-interfacing powers, I don't understand how you can find it so implausible that an Ardat-Yakshi would have mind-controlling powers when the evidence is practically punching you in the face. Ardat-Yakshi are basically space-vampires, and guess what? Vampires have mind-controlling and hypnotic powers in virtually every literature in which they're presented. Why is it so implausible that Ardat-Yakshi should be the same?

Even the wiki states that "[Morinth's] powerful biotic abilities, and talent for dominating the minds of others, have kept her alive despite the odds." And though I can't find a video of her dialog on YouTube, I'm almost positive I remember Samara's second dialog about Morinth warning you that she can get inside your head and twist your thoughts.

Even if mind-control isn't the most accurate description, at the very least it's mind-manipulation similar to indoctrination. And that Shepard is able to resist her by making a high Paragon/Renegade check while he's got his guard up doesn't mean Morinth couldn't catch you off guard aboard the Normandy and put you under her thrall at any time. Or, if Shepard's "willpower" is simply too great, do what she did to the aforementioned village and turn your entire crew against you. No worries about forcefully mind-raping you then; she can just take over the ship afterwards.

Morinth is more of a threat to you and your crew than Samara could ever dream of being.

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

JKoopman wrote...

Dean... give it up. Morinth isn't just any asari. She's an Ardat-Yakshi. If regular asari can have known mind-interfacing powers, I don't understand how you can find it so implausible that an Ardat-Yakshi would have mind-controlling powers when the evidence is practically punching you in the face. Ardat-Yakshi are basically space-vampires, and guess what? Vampires have mind-controlling and hypnotic powers in virtually every literature in which they're presented. Why is it so implausible that Ardat-Yakshi should be the same?

The evidence you claim proves Morinth can mind-control is the exact result that could be expected from the completely non-mind controlling powers Samara warns you of. It doesn't disqualify Samara's position, which as the one actually in the game and not provided by fans, is the dominant position that must be disproven.

The difference between AY and Asari is never said to be mind-controlling. The difference is that when any AY mates, they kill their partner. No other AY, including Samara's other daughters, is said, implied, or given to have any sort of compulsion powers, while Morinth's persuasive abilities are stated to be a result of her acting ability and charm ability.

Yes, drawing unsupported cross-genre analogies is implausible and unreasonable. Morinth isn't even the character with the uniformly vampiric bonus ability: that's Samara. The interpretation of vampiric qualities varies from work to work, and if they aren't stated or supported in one work, and they can't be claimed. We can't claim that Legion is equivalent to the Matrix machines in capability and means, for example, simply because they're both machines.

Even the wiki states that "[Morinth's] powerful biotic abilities, and talent for dominating the minds of others, have kept her alive despite the odds." And though I can't find a video of her dialog on YouTube, I'm almost positive I remember Samara's second dialog about Morinth warning you that she can get inside your head and twist your thoughts.

Domination isn't the same as mind control.

Dominating by charm and appeal is still domination. Twisting someone around one's finger doesn't require mind control.

Even if mind-control isn't the most accurate description, at the very least it's mind-manipulation similar to indoctrination.

Except for not being universally applicable or effective, irresistable, doesn't actively control the person's thoughts?

Sure. Just like indoctrination. Sort of how like Shepard's charm/intimidation persuades in which he changes someone's mind for them is also mind-manipulation like indoctrination.

And that Shepard is able to resist her by making a high Paragon/Renegade check while he's got his guard up doesn't mean Morinth couldn't catch you off guard aboard the Normandy and put you under her thrall at any time.

Your presoposition that it's an active ability to be resisted aside, temptations are much easier to refuse when you've already mastered the temptation and refused it. Addictions aside, once you're refused something once, it's rarely nearly as hard to refuse it a second time.

Or, if Shepard's "willpower" is simply too great, do what she did to the aforementioned village and turn your entire crew against you. No worries about forcefully mind-raping you then; she can just take over the ship afterwards.

And Shepard would stand aside and let her do this because...?

You don't recruit Morinth to leave her alone and bored. You recruit manage on the expectation that you can manage her as needed. That means keeping her entertained enough not to be bored and want to act with the crew, and maintain the conditions so that creating trouble isn't fun for her.

The truly selfish and ammoral are not inclined towards trouble for trouble's own sake: the ammoral are not opposed to trouble when it allows for fun, but are also disinclined towards making trouble when it makes trouble for them. The ammoral are actually mostly moral most of the time, not dedicated to machinations to cause misery.

Morinth is more of a threat to you and your crew than Samara could ever dream of being.

Disagreed. Morinth is ammoral, but Samara is ruthless, and which you find worse is not clear-cut and indisputable.

[Casuist]

Failing to "roll a saving throw" with a Charm/Intimidate dialog = Zombie Shepard? Check.

An expected of an artists depiction Shepard being emotionally overwhelmed by Morinth's attraction, just as Samara warned Morinth could do for completely not-invasive reasons? Yes.

Not sure what exactly you mean by an "artist's depiction." This is a clear element of the script and the ONLY moment in the conversation in which the voice acting indicates that shepard is overwhelmed. The trigger summary is "Can't... think...": and coincides with the use of Morinth's use of Asari melding. This is a clear imposition of Morinth's will on Shepard's.... you don't overwhelm someone with desire with one spoken line after an evening of stalemate verbal feints.  

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I guess it's here we disagree. Whenever Shepard pulls off a P/R check, it's because he manage to be charming, witty, threatning, reasonable enough in order to make the other person reconsider something. What Morinth is doing is convincing Shepard to bow to her every whim and commit suicide, that's a tad extreme don't you think?

No, because such things do happen, and especially when it comes to sex with a physically charming person, which even if you don't find Morinth to be the lore and game pretty much beats you with a stick.

People can be led into sex against the greater interests, and even their livelyhood, because there's a point at which your body doesn't care what your mind is thinking, and biology pre-empts logic. You don't have to decrease someone's mind to get them to be willing to be stupid, you just have to play their body and emotions: you can cloud their mind with anger, distract their attention with sorrow, weather their resolve by physical exhaustion. This is part of why teenagers are so stupid at times, and adult the next minute: their hormones are haywire, and their bodies aren't stable. Hormones, however, never go away: the end of puberty is the end of the worst swings, not the end of hormones.

But is Morinth really being charming here? I could buy what you said if all the dialog we had with her up to that point was about Morinth trying to have Shepard slowly open up to the idea of sleeping with her. But that's not what is happening. All they talk about is music, drugs, art and violence. Then when they get back to the apartment she talks about danger and that safety is a lie.

[dgcatanisiri]

That's the type that Morinth is attracted to, the kind that lures her in. If you aren't of a similar mind of looking for the real big thrill, she doesn't care about you. You won't do it for her. Morinth doesn't want to go on long walks on the beach, she wants ACTION. For her, those discussions ARE her way of getting Shepard to open up to sleeping with her.

[JKoopman]

I really can't do anything more than shake my head. If certain people want to believe that Morinth has no mind-influencing powers and she's just relying on good old-fashioned seduction to overwhelm Shepard's senses in spite of all the evidence presented, there's nothing I can really say at this point to convince them otherwise.

I will however point out that, like Lizardviking said, at no point was Morinth ever being especially seductive or charming during her conversation with Shepard. They talked about drug use, music, art, and vids, then went back to her apartment and talked about the illusion of safety and the two of them being alike, and then Morinth's eyes went black and she basically says "Obey me!" at which point Shepard is reduced to a monotone zombie if he's not sufficiently Paragon or Renegade to resist her. I don't really read that as "Wow, she's so seductive! I just can't control myself even though I know she's going to kill me!" But if some people do, to each their own I guess...

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 février 2011 - 08:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Casuist wrote...

Failing to "roll a saving throw" with a Charm/Intimidate dialog = Zombie Shepard? Check.

An expected of an artists depiction Shepard being emotionally overwhelmed by Morinth's attraction, just as Samara warned Morinth could do for completely not-invasive reasons? Yes.

Not sure what exactly you mean by an "artist's depiction." This is a clear element of the script and the ONLY moment in the conversation in which the voice acting indicates that shepard is overwhelmed. The trigger summary is "Can't... think...": and coincides with the use of Morinth's use of Asari melding. This is a clear imposition of Morinth's will on Shepard's.... you don't overwhelm someone with desire with one spoken line after an evening of stalemate verbal feints.  

Happens quite a bit, actually: people think they're in control, and then they lose it without realizing they were losing it steadily.

As someone who's more than once had physical/emotional stimuli overwhelm logic, and knowing I couldn't think straight because of it, I testify on my own behalf that you can experience a sensation of not being able to think and know it, all without brainwashing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

But is Morinth really being charming here? I could buy what you said if all the dialog we had with her up to that point was about Morinth trying to have Shepard slowly open up to the idea of sleeping with her. But that's not what is happening. All they talk about is music, drugs, art and violence. Then when they get back to the apartment she talks about danger and that safety is a lie.

In a lore sense? Yes. Is it depicted well by the programmers? Not especially.

It's a failing of the medium and being hard to depict it: by the game's intent, Morinth is seductive, charming, inteligent, and attractive.

Personally, I find ME2's Asari-freckles ugly, and Morinth's especially so. Add in the heavy-handed emotional cues that we're supposed to not like her, and the gap between story intent and story depiction are large.


It's the difference of being there vs. seeing it from a distance, which is always an ambitious undertaking at best.

[Dean_the_Young]

JKoopman wrote...

I really can't do anything more than shake my head. If certain people want to believe that Morinth has no mind-influencing powers and she's just relying on good old-fashioned seduction to overwhelm Shepard's senses in spite of all the evidence presented, there's nothing I can really say at this point to convince them otherwise.

No one's fooled by the false anonyminity simply because you don't quote me, you know. It's alright, though: I don't mind. You don't have to be afraid of saying my name.

[Terraneaux]

You know, people claiming that gameplay/story segregation shouldn't be reason to doubt Morinth's mind control powers (a reasonable position) should also get that 'Reave' seems to be outright vampiric in nature as well.

[JKoopman]

It's impossible to have a serious argument when every piece of contrary evidence presented is simply dismissed as "That's just gameplay and doesn't mean anything; you can't use that in a lore argument" and "Well, it wasn't the artist's intention to convey that impression, it was just implemented poorly."

How do you know what the writer's and artist's intentions were for her character, Dean? What makes you the expert and authority? I would say that, as the scene very obviously conveys the impression that Morinth is overwhelming Shepard with her asari mind-melding abilities, that that was the intended impression we were supposed to be given. But I guess the only way you'll believe otherwise is for Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters to come in and say so.

I don't care how horny a guy gets, he doesn't suddenly jump from confidently leading a conversation to sputtering broken sentences in a monotonous tone completely contrary to his character with one line from his partner--especially when he knows said partner is a murderous sociopathic space-vampire who's trying to kill him--without there being some kind of mind-alteration or manipulation going on. And like it or not, the fact that Morinth's character ability is Dominate, which is "an innate Ardat-Yakshi ability" that basically AI Hacks organic enemies, heavily supports the notion that she has mind-controlling abilities.

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 février 2011 - 08:51 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

But is Morinth really being charming here? I could buy what you said if all the dialog we had with her up to that point was about Morinth trying to have Shepard slowly open up to the idea of sleeping with her. But that's not what is happening. All they talk about is music, drugs, art and violence. Then when they get back to the apartment she talks about danger and that safety is a lie.

In a lore sense? Yes. Is it depicted well by the programmers? Not especially.

It's a failing of the medium and being hard to depict it: by the game's intent, Morinth is seductive, charming, inteligent, and attractive.

Personally, I find ME2's Asari-freckles ugly, and Morinth's especially so. Add in the heavy-handed emotional cues that we're supposed to not like her, and the gap between story intent and story depiction are large.


It's the difference of being there vs. seeing it from a distance, which is always an ambitious undertaking at best.

I guess I don't anything more to say.

You mention the dialog with Samara and say that it's support her simply doing the things through conventional means. Well, could the things she mention not also happen due to her having the ability to mind-control/brain-wash (or whatever you wish to call it) people and make them feel that way?

Also the discribtion for dominate states "Brainwash an organic target to fight for you". Hmmm, sounds alot like mind-control powers to me Dean.

And like my previous post said. There's no dialog from Morinth where she tries to charm Shepard into falling for her, nor is there any dialog from Shepard that suggest he's feeling attracted to her. IF Bioware intented it to be this way, don't you think they would have atleast give some subtle hints during the conversation with Morinth?

Then there's the part where Shepard speaks in a creepy monotone voice if he fails to pass the P/R check. I don't Bioware made Shepard speak this way because that was the only way to tell the player that Shep finally feel for her charms.

[Casuist]

.....right Dean. The animation, script, and voice acting are all indicative of a forceful imposition of will... but apparently this is all meant to simply indicate influential flirtation and:



"Is it depicted well by the programmers? Not especially."



William of Okham is pulling some Gs...

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

I guess I don't anything more to say.

You mention the dialog with Samara and say that it's support her simply doing the things through conventional means. Well, could the things she mention not also happen due to her having the ability to mind-control/brain-wash (or whatever you wish to call it) people and make them feel that way?

Does Morinth get top-class acting and empathetic abilities by brainwashing other people?

Er, no. I don't think that's how brainwashing works, especially to the evaluation by someone who clearly isn't brainwashed by Morinth.

To quote Sherlock Holmes: you're twisting facts to suit theories, and not theories to suit facts.

Also the discribtion for dominate states "Brainwash an organic target to fight for you". Hmmm, sounds alot like mind-control powers to me Dean.

The description of Reave also talks about sucking life force from the target. It's also nonsensical by lore, nor ever supported or mentioned or referenced in lore.

Gameplay and lore separation, LV.

And like my previous post said. There's no dialog from Morinth where she tries to charm Shepard into falling for her, nor is there any dialog from Shepard that suggest he's feeling attracted to her. IF Bioware intented it to be this way, don't you think they would have atleast give some subtle hints during the conversation with Morinth?

What, like Morinth have a dialogue bar and a Paragon/Renegade prompt?

I don't presume that other people can see Shepard's talk-jutsu interface, so why would Morinth? It's not like we aren't outright told she's darn persuasive despite anyone's preparations. Shepard, if Shepard doesn't resist it, is persuaded. That's hardly subtle, and certainly a hint.

Then there's the part where Shepard speaks in a creepy monotone voice if he fails to pass the P/R check. I don't Bioware made Shepard speak this way because that was the only way to tell the player that Shep finally feel for her charms.

Why not? If Shepard lost his wits to succumb in the first place, why should Shepard be at top intellectual form otherwise?

[AkiKishi]

Well I just played out the scene. Her skin changes colour and her eyes go black. Since melding with her kills you. I can only conclude thats the dominate power at work in cutscene form.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 11 février 2011 - 09:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

JKoopman wrote...

It's impossible to have a serious argument when every piece of contrary evidence presented is simply dismissed as "That's just gameplay and doesn't mean anything; you can't use that in a lore argument" and "Well, it wasn't the artist's intention to convey that impression, it was just implemented poorly."

Let's not flatter yourself too much: you have three primary arguments.

The first is Dominate, a loyalty power classified as a biotic that makes no sense with the game's own extensive codex on biotics: gravity manipulation and black holes. Similar to how nothing about biotics justifies Reave's vampiric effect. Moreover, your own quoted description of Dominate doesn't call it mind control. This lore-incompatible description that is never referred to anywhere else in the lore/game, however, is still proof of brainwashing. Even if mind-control is never given as the means of domination.

The second is that Shepard is convinced into a stupor when he knows ahead of time that this is a bad idea. Despite the blatant forewarning by Samara of the non-biotic, non-mental reasons for this, and the extensive human history of men and women getting themselves led into things they know ahead of time are logically unsound, this is still proof of brainwashing. Even if no one in the game calls it brainwashing, refers to it as brainwashing,  or credits AY with that power.

The third is that Morinth's black eyes and the ominous narrative cues during the scene. This is proof that Morinth is brainwashing Shepard, even though all Asari have black eyes when preparing to have a mind-meld, and that the narrative cues are appropriate for the fact that Shepard is presumably about to die.

How do you know what the writer's and artist's intentions were for her character, Dean?

Because the writers gave us Samara, our subject matter expert as to Morinth and AY in general, to give us a feel for what sort of threat we faced. And Samara told us how Morinth would manipulate our emotions via non-biotic, non-mind controlling ways.

But I guess the only way you'll believe otherwise is for Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters to come in and say so.

Now that's certainly false.

I'd believe otherwise if Samara, our subject matter expert and a person with a lifetime experience with Morinth, credited her with mind control powers.

I'd believe otherwise if Morinth, our potential resident AY, ever claimed mind control powers.

I'd believe otherwise if Shepard, the victim on the spot, credited Morinth with mind control powers.

I'd believe otherwise if Mordin or Dr. Chakwas, medical professionals, credited Morinth with mind control powers.

I'd believe otherwise if TIM or his Cerberus Mission Summary, informed actors, credited Morinth with mind control powers.

I'd believe otherwise if the Codex credited Morinth or AY with mind control powers.


I'd even believe otherwise if Dominate, the skill you like to cling to as proof, credited Mind Control as the means of its domination.


Alas, none of them do. However, we do have Samara who credits Morinth's persuasive abilities to non-mind control powers. And we do have Morinth, who openly claims to superb acting abilities as a means of her persuasive exploits.

I don't care how horny a guy gets, he doesn't suddenly jump from confidently leading a conversation to sputtering broken sentences in a monotonous tone completely contrary to his character with one line from his partner--especially when he knows said partner is a murderous sociopathic space-vampire who's trying to kill him--without there being some kind of mind-alteration or manipulation going on.

Why not? Men are prone to being stupid when the ****** is up, and his emotions played.

I've known people who lost years of work and a promising career for a single night's indescretion. History is littered with people who were led to destroy their own lives, betray their own families, for a woman's smile. It certainly isn't too difficult to find men who thought they were in control being turned to putty in a woman's hand.

Men + Sex = availability for stupidity on disastrous scales.