276 réponses à ce sujet

[Konfined]

Why not? If Shepard lost his wits to succumb in the first place, why should Shepard be at top intellectual form otherwise?

Paraphrased quote from Maelon, in game, in regards to forms of mind manipulation and control: "Forced behavior modification always results in mental degredation.  Whether Reaper indoctrination or drugs, test subjects always lose higher cognitive function." 
In game lore which supports that forms of mind control to an unwilling target do exist in game.  And before you even start, quite obviously the comment, "Reaper indoctrination or drugs" is ment to illustrate examples of the high and low extremes of such forms of forced (key word) behavior modification.  Your attempts to call Shepard what akins to a weak willed highschool virgin are insulting to everyone's intelligence.

Modifié par Konfined, 11 février 2011 - 09:42 .

[Xilizhra]

I assume on that last point you'll say the same is true for women as well?

[Dean_the_Young]

Casuist wrote...

.....right Dean. The animation, script, and voice acting are all indicative of a forceful imposition of will... but apparently this is all meant to simply indicate influential flirtation and:

"Is it depicted well by the programmers? Not especially."

William of Okham is pulling some Gs...

Okham's Razor refers to the principal that, all things being equal, the simplest answer is the best one. In a work of fiction, the simplest explanation is the one given directly to the consumer by exposition, until demonstrated false.

In Mass Effect 2, the explanation given to the player by exposition is given by Samara (and Morinth) is that Morinth is extremely charming, seductive, and manages such by being a superb actor.

The explanation never given to the player by any exposition is that Morinth is a mind controller.

[volus4life]

If her loyalty power Dominate is any indication, Morinth is capable of controlling weaker minds. I don't think she sweet talks or seduces those Collectors into attacking each other.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Why not? If Shepard lost his wits to succumb in the first place, why should Shepard be at top intellectual form otherwise?

Paraphrased quote from Maelon, in game, in regards to forms of mind manipulation and control: "Forced behavior modification always results in mental degredation.  Whether Reaper indoctrination or drugs, test subjects always lose higher cognitive function." 
In game lore which supports that forms of mind control to an unwilling target do exist in game.  And before you even start, quite obviously the comment, "Reaper indoctrination or drugs" is ment to illustrate examples of the high and low extremes of such forms of forced (key word) behavior modification. 

You know what else scews with intelligence? Emotional appeals. Happens to adults all the time.

You're making a fallacy here: in categories, simply because a is a subset of c and b is a subset of c does not mean a = b.

Your attempts to call Shepard what akins to a weak willed highschool virgin are insulting to everyone's intelligence.

Since that is not what I am calling Shepard, or attempting to call Shepard, fortunately no one is being insulted by me.

[Dean_the_Young]

volus4life wrote...

If her loyalty power Dominate is any indication, Morinth is capable of controlling weaker minds. I don't think she sweet talks or seduces those Collectors into attacking each other.

I don't think she uses a truly biotic power either, since biotics have no lore basis for doing mind-controlling at range. However, the game calls Dominate and Reave biotic powers, despite unbiotic effects.

[Casuist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Casuist wrote...

.....right Dean. The animation, script, and voice acting are all indicative of a forceful imposition of will... but apparently this is all meant to simply indicate influential flirtation and:

"Is it depicted well by the programmers? Not especially."

William of Okham is pulling some Gs...

Okham's Razor refers to the principal that, all things being equal, the simplest answer is the best one. In a work of fiction, the simplest explanation is the one given directly to the consumer by exposition, until demonstrated false.

In Mass Effect 2, the explanation given to the player by exposition is given by Samara (and Morinth) is that Morinth is extremely charming, seductive, and manages such by being a superb actor.

The explanation never given to the player by any exposition is that Morinth is a mind controller.

um... no. The exposition given is exactly the evidence and circumstances we have put forward, of Morinth using her mental abilities to abruptly change Shepard from lucid, self-aware and unwavering commitment to avoiding seduction to a zombified version of him/herself swearing to kill and die on Morinth's whim. The "simplest" explanation is that the game designers wrote the script and instructed the voice actors and animators towards that purpose.

The "not simple" explanation is that the game designers didn't have any particular purpose in telling the voice actors to demonstrate abrupt lack of mental function, that "can't think" isn't actually supposed to be the triggering selection of the dialogue, and that Morinth's use of her mental powers exhibited with the eye change is simply coincidental in Shepard's change of heart. Unfortunately, this explanation is the one you happen to be choosing. 

"not simple" might be a bit too charitable.

the simplest explanation is the one given directly to the consumer by exposition

... and yet you are the one who fell back on "they programmed it wrong."

[AkiKishi]

I'd really like to know what is happening in the cutscene on Morinths couch if it's not dominate in action.

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Konfined wrote...

Why not? If Shepard lost his wits to succumb in the first place, why should Shepard be at top intellectual form otherwise?

Paraphrased quote from Maelon, in game, in regards to forms of mind manipulation and control: "Forced behavior modification always results in mental degredation.  Whether Reaper indoctrination or drugs, test subjects always lose higher cognitive function." 
In game lore which supports that forms of mind control to an unwilling target do exist in game.  And before you even start, quite obviously the comment, "Reaper indoctrination or drugs" is ment to illustrate examples of the high and low extremes of such forms of forced (key word) behavior modification. 

You know what else scews with intelligence? Emotional appeals. Happens to adults all the time.

You're making a fallacy here: in categories, simply because a is a subset of c and b is a subset of c does not mean a = b.

Your attempts to call Shepard what akins to a weak willed highschool virgin are insulting to everyone's intelligence.

Since that is not what I am calling Shepard, or attempting to call Shepard, fortunately no one is being insulted by me.

Alright, so you're going to go ahead and remain steadfast to the idea that an individual of Shepard's caliber, not just a man either, as Shepard can also be a female, is so weak willed that in the middle of a mission that is crucial to the ENTIRE galaxy's survival, Shepard will allow themselves to be persuaded to sex by a confirmed sociopathic killer who burns out their victim's nervous system during sex, and has the clear intention of doing so here? 

That Commander Shepard, in spite of everything to the contrary, is suddenly so weak willed that they will put everything on hold, forget everything they've set out to do, and allow themselves to be reduced to a drooling idiot, simply because Morinth is that good an actress?  Really?  Let me know for sure so that I can just shake my head in disbelief and be on my way.

Modifié par Konfined, 11 février 2011 - 09:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Casuist wrote...

the simplest explanation is the one given directly to the consumer by exposition

... and yet you are the one who fell back on "they programmed it wrong."

Not wrong: unsatisfactory, perhaps, but that's a personal appraisal.

As it stands, the the scene does reflect what Samara warned would occur. The reasonings and basis for what Samara warned might occur are not refuted either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Alright, so you're going to go ahead and remain steadfast to the idea that an individual of Shepard's caliber, not just a man either, as Shepard can also be a female, is so weak willed that in the middle of a mission that is crucial to the ENTIRE galaxy's survival, Shepard will allow themselves to be persuaded to sex by a confirmed sociopathic killer who burns out their victim's nervous system during sex, and has the clear intention of doing so here? 

An individual of Shepard's caliber isn't mentally dominated by Morinth's appeals. Assuming, of course, we're referring to a Shepard with an exceptional strength of will, as recognized by the game mechanic system of Paragon/Renegade reflecting a strength of convinction and character.

Otherwise, there is nothing particularly insulting about Shepard falling victim to a superb seductress: if people were ruled by dispassionate logic at all times, then sex and emotional manipulation wouldn't work. Like Bond, who Shepard shares more than a few similarities with, the femFatale is dangerous, capable, and persuasive, and the protagonist may only survive by luck and intervention.

That Commander Shepard, in spite of everything to the contrary, is suddenly so weak willed, that they will put everything on hold, forget everything they've set out to do, and allow themselves to be reduced to a drooling idiot, simply because Morinth is that good an actress?  Really?  Let me know for sure so that I can just shake my head in disbelief and be on my way.

No. Nor is there anything especially 'so weak willed' about it: this isn't something that only affects lesser people. People being led into doing stupid things doesn't only happen to the stupid and pitiful.

Now you can still shake your head in disbelief and walk away, but that sounds like an emotionally incited response to me.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 février 2011 - 10:05 .

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

An individual of Shepard's caliber isn't mentally dominated by Morinth's appeals. Assuming, of course, we're referring to a Shepard with an exceptional strength of will, as recognized by the game mechanic system of Paragon/Renegade reflecting a strength of convinction and character.

Interesting.  You ignore Morinth's ingame ability of Dominate and dismiss it solely as a gameplay, non-lore mechanic, and then try to use the gameplay non-lore mechanic speech system as the basis of your rebuttal here.  And no, obviously if Shepard were resistant to Morinth's "charms," this whole discussion you all are having wouldn't even have any basis anyway.  And you also danced around and failed to address the main point of my original post; that did not escape my notice.  Also interesting.

Otherwise, there is nothing particularly insulting about Shepard falling victim to a superb seductress: if people were ruled by dispassionate logic at all times, then sex and emotional manipulation wouldn't work. Like Bond, who Shepard shares more than a few similarities with, the femFatale is dangerous, capable, and persuasive, and the protagonist may only survive by luck and intervention.

And it is 100% completely insulting that Shepard would suddenly fall victim to such in individual in light of the situation, and what's at stake.  That you have to be completely dispassionate to not see the logic pitfall here that sex quite obviously equals death in this case.  We're not talking a Bond-esque situation here, we're talking where the femFatale is able to seduce the main character into a situation where the act of sex is fatal to the main character, and the main character is 100% cognizant of this fact and still decides to go forth with it, completely outside of all logic and reasoning,  It is completely absurd that Shepard would willingly agree to this.

No. Nor is there anything especially 'so weak willed' about it: this isn't something that only affects lesser people. People being led into doing stupid things doesn't only happen to the stupid and pitiful.

Now you can still shake your head in disbelief and walk away, but that sounds like an emotionally incited response to me.

Adults with full mental capacity, logic, intelligence, and basic problem solving skills that willingly allow themselves to be persuaded into certain death are stupid.  There is no middle ground here.  When a grown man swallows bleach because a pretty girl asks him to, knowing full well what bleach is and what it would do to him, and subsequently dies, it's because he's stupid.  A man jumps in front of a moving train because the super model offered him a night in bed, and he gets hit and dies, it's because he's stupid.  Cultists are cultists because they are stupid and weak willed, no way around that.

These examples are valid in this case because that's akin to what Shepard would be doing here; willingly drinking bleach because the pretty Asari asks them to.  This isn't merely just being weak-willed, this would be beyond Darwin Award level stupidity.  Shepard has shown no evidence at any point in this series that he or she is that stupid.  So now then, why would he/she do so now?  This kind of stupidity you are suggest does, in fact, only happen to the stupid and pitiful, sorry to be the one to break it to you.

Modifié par Konfined, 11 février 2011 - 10:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

An individual of Shepard's caliber isn't mentally dominated by Morinth's appeals. Assuming, of course, we're referring to a Shepard with an exceptional strength of will, as recognized by the game mechanic system of Paragon/Renegade reflecting a strength of convinction and character.

Interesting.  You ignore Morinth's ingame ability of Dominate and dismiss it solely as a gameplay, non-lore mechanic, and then try to use the gameplay non-lore mechanic speech system as the basis of your rebuttal here.

Really? Because an interface representing a player-influenced lore aspect (Shepard's character and nature, and Shepard's ability to win friends and influence people) seems a mite different from a non-lore subscribed mechanic.

Sort of like how thermal clips, by lore, reload faster than thermal mechanics in the game do. I don't cry plot hole, I cry differentiation between lore and and gameplay. When gameplay does not contradict lore, it's good. When it does, lore wins.

  And no, obviously if Shepard were resistant to Morinth's "charms," this whole discussion you all are having wouldn't even have any basis anyway.  And you also danced around and failed to address the main point of my original post; that did not escape my notice.  Also interesting.

You find many things interesting that are not there.

I did address your point. Perhaps not as you wanted it addressed... but then, if I addressed it as you wanted, I would be agreeing with you. And, naturally, if you addressed the points as I feel they should be addressed, you would be agreeing with me.

An interesting perspective to take? Not especially: everyone feels they are making logical arguments.

And it is 100% completely insulting that Shepard would suddenly fall victim to such in individual in light of the situation, and what's at stake.  That you have to be completely dispassionate to not see the logic pitfall here that sex quite obviously equals death in this case.  We're not talking a Bond-esque situation here, we're talking where the femFatale is able to seduce the main character into a situation where the act of sex is fatal to the main character, and the main character is 100% cognizant of this fact and still decides to go forth with it, completely outside of all logic and reasoning,  It is completely absurd that Shepard would willingly agree to this.

Actually, we are talking about a Bond-esque situation here, complete with a Bond-esque femme fatale, a bond esque scenario (you must seduce her to lead her into a bedroom as a trap, as opposed to shoot her right there!), and even a bond-esque protagonist (who all the girls will moon for with a single line). Even the nature of the femme fatale's fatality, the sexual nature, is highly bond-esque.

Adults with full mental capacity, logic, intelligence, and basic problem solving skills that willingly allow themselves to be persuaded into certain death are stupid. There is no middle ground here.  When a grown man swallows bleach because a pretty girl asks him to, knowing full well what bleach is and what it would do to him, and subsequently dies, it's because he's stupid.  A man jumps in front of a moving train because the super model offered him a night in bed, and he gets hit and dies, it's because he's stupid.  Cultists are cultists because they are stupid and weak willed, no way around that.

Our experiences differ, then. In my experience, people can be
stupid under certain circumstances without being stupid overall.

Infact, I find that nearly all people have something they're irrational and, for lack of a better term, stupid over. An ideology. Political enemies. A irrational affection. An ideal they hold disproportionate to common reason and common sense.

People aren't uniform across the species, but people aren't uniform across the scope of their own lives, over time or over circumstances, or even at the same time. Nobel laureates have supported incredibly stupid things and ideas. Otherwise idiotic people have provided great and wise knowledge, while great intellects and geniuses of common sense have fallen into pitfalls and horrendous mistakes of faltering logic.

A smart man isn't smart all the time. A composed man isn't composed all the time. A prepared man can find his preparations, physical and mental, insufficient for the challenges he expects.

This is human nature. This is the nature of fallible, imperfect people.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 février 2011 - 11:01 .

[volus4life]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

volus4life wrote...

If her loyalty power Dominate is any indication, Morinth is capable of controlling weaker minds. I don't think she sweet talks or seduces those Collectors into attacking each other.

I don't think she uses a truly biotic power either, since biotics have no lore basis for doing mind-controlling at range. However, the game calls Dominate and Reave biotic powers, despite unbiotic effects.

regardless of whether dominate is a "biotic" power or not, she is capable of mind controlling her enemies. there is no way she can just seduce people mid-fight like you insinuate she did with shepard.

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

Morinth is a complete bad ass she gets stronger every time she kills a powerful person, why wouldn't you want a team mate who can absorb the life force and power of your fallen adversaries ?????

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Really? Because an interface representing a player-influenced lore aspect (Shepard's character and nature, and Shepard's ability to win friends and influence people) seems a mite different from a non-lore subscribed mechanic.

Sort of like how thermal clips, by lore, reload faster than thermal mechanics in the game do. I don't cry plot hole, I cry differentiation between lore and and gameplay. When gameplay does not contradict lore, it's good. When it does, lore wins.

And the gameplay does not contradict lore, based on your opinion in fact.  I cited an ingame source which supports the claim that mind control does exist in game, and the Dominate talent is an example of such: a gameplay mechanic supported by in game lore.  And another poster brought up the very good point that Dominate isn't merely some kind of charm or persuasion; it is very much complete mind control.  The example of using it against the collectors is absolutely perfect in illustrating the fact that the Dominate talent isn't just persuasion.   I'm certain we're going to go in circles over this however, like we usually do, so we're either going to have to agree to disagree, or drop it altogether.

You find many things interesting that are not there.

I did address your point. Perhaps not as you wanted it addressed... but then, if I addressed it as you wanted, I would be agreeing with you. And, naturally, if you addressed the points as I feel they should be addressed, you would be agreeing with me.

An interesting perspective to take? Not especially: everyone feels they are making logical arguments.

And you didn't address the cited source I provided, at all.

Actually, we are talking about a Bond-esque situation here, complete with a Bond-esque femme fatale, a bond esque scenario (you must seduce her to lead her into a bedroom as a trap, as opposed to shoot her right there!), and even a bond-esque protagonist (who all the girls will moon for with a single line). Even the nature of the femme fatale's fatality, the sexual nature, is highly bond-esque.

No, this is not a Bond-esque situation, because in none of those situations did Bond completely relinquish control, or his very life for that matter, in bed.  This isn't sex and sexuality as some metaphorical weapon against male chauvinism like the Bond films tend to potray, or a woman who uses guile and charm to seduce Bond into a sexual situation, and then uses extraneous means to get the upper hand.  With what Shepard is facing, sex is literally the weapon that Morinth intends to use against Shepard; the sex is what is killing Morinth's targets. 

Not the knife strapped to her thigh, not the gun under the mattress, not the ice pick under her pillow, not the goons hiding in the closet.  This is more in tune to Succubus lore; that is what Shepard has to deal with.  For the partner, sex with a succubus is death, wholly and completely.  With Morinth, sex is death, wholly and completely.  Shepard is privvy to this fact.

Our experiences differ, then. In my experience, people can be stupid under certain circumstances without being stupid overall.

Infact, I find that nearly all people have something they're irrational and, for lack of a better term, stupid over. An ideology. Political enemies. A irrational affection. An ideal they hold disproportionate to common reason and common sense.

People aren't uniform across the species, but people aren't uniform across the scope of their own lives, over time or over circumstances, or even at the same time. Nobel laureates have supported incredibly stupid things and ideas. Otherwise idiotic people have provided great and wise knowledge, while great intellects and geniuses of common sense have fallen into pitfalls and horrendous mistakes of faltering logic.

A smart man isn't smart all the time. A composed man isn't composed all the time. A prepared man can find his preparations, physical and mental, insufficient for the challenges he expects.

This is human nature. This is the nature of fallible, imperfect people.

I've seen stupid people do stupid things as well, this isn't an experience unique to you.  However, what you seem to be doing is greatly down-playing the gravitity of the situation presented to Shepard, and thus vastly underestimating Shepard's will power, intelligence, logical reasoning and common sense as a result.  People making mistakes because they are blinded by idealogy or religious belief or even affection are one thing; people leaping into the face of certain death over a one night stand is another thing entirely.  And the former isn't always necessarily attributed to stupidity either, nor should it always have to be, though there are obivously clear cut exceptions.  Morinth literally has to convince Shepard to die... for a one night stand.

That is complete, utter, 100% moronic stupidity; no two ways around it.  As I mentioned before, sex with Morinth is death, wholly and completely.  Also, as I mentioned before, Shepard is completely privvy to the this fact.  Shepard througout the series, is shown to be exceptionally strong willed, intelligent, and rooted in common sense.  Based on choices made ingame they can also be highly persuasive, savvy; they can make choices that are either emotional or ruled by logic, dispassionate or heat of the moment. 

However, in no point throughout the series has Shepard ever made a truly facepalming moment that would suggest Shepard is completely stupid; that Shepard would be persuaded to do something that could only equal a certain, needless death.  Even falling for Morinth on the Normandy equals game over, thus indicating that it's a completely foolish decision. 

How in the hell could the normally unflappable Shepard, privvy to the situation, suddenly be persuaded to throw their life away, not for idealogy, religion, or even affection, but for a one night stand with a sociopathic literal succubus who only intends to suck Shepard's life force away?

Modifié par Konfined, 11 février 2011 - 11:58 .

[JKoopman]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Let's not flatter yourself too much: you have three primary arguments.

The first is Dominate, a loyalty power classified as a biotic that makes no sense with the game's own extensive codex on biotics: gravity manipulation and black holes. Similar to how nothing about biotics justifies Reave's vampiric effect.[/quote]

BioWare have three disciplines in Mass Effect: Physical, Tech and Biotics. Dominate certainly isn't a physical action, nor could it be classified as a tech ability in any way as it neither uses technology nor affects technology. That leaves Biotics. So unless you expect BioWare to create a special fourth discipline solely for two skills in the game, I wouldn't say that it disproves Dominate as a mind-control ability simply because BioWare chose to simplify things by putting it in the Biotics (eg: "mind powers") discipline.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moreover, your own quoted description of Dominate doesn't call it mind control.[/quote]

My own "quoted" description called it an innate Ardat-Yakshi ability. Calling it "basically AI Hack for organics" was my own description in my own words.

1) AI Hack most definitely is a form of mind-control. It mind controls mechanical units just like Dominate mind controls organic units. Strike one.

2) Funny how you conveniently ignore the "innate ability of Ardat-Yakshis" part. How can mentally dominating organic units be an "innate ability" of Ardat-Yakshis if Ardat-Yahshi have no innate abilities as you suggest? And how can they have "innate abilities" if they're simply regular old asari that happen to kill whoever they mate with because of a genetic defect? Strike two.

Ready for strike three?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

This lore-incompatible description that is never referred to anywhere else in the lore/game, however, is still proof of brainwashing. Even if mind-control is never given as the means of domination.[/quote]

Funny you should mention brainwashing, since the in-game description of the Dominate ability is actually "Brainwash an organic enemy, forcing him to attack his allies." Notice how it doesn't say "Flirt with an enemy to persuade him to turn on his allies"? Brainwash. Mentally dominate. Strike three and you're outta here.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The second is that Shepard is convinced into a stupor when he knows ahead of time that this is a bad idea. Despite the blatant forewarning by Samara of the non-biotic, non-mental reasons for this, and the extensive human history of men and women getting themselves led into things they know ahead of time are logically unsound, this is still proof of brainwashing. Even if no one in the game calls it brainwashing, refers to it as brainwashing,  or credits AY with that power.[/quote]

"Logically unsound" doesn't equate to knowingly commiting suicide simply because your lover tells you to, nor does it equate to talking like a zombie while you do so.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The third is that Morinth's black eyes and the ominous narrative cues during the scene. This is proof that Morinth is brainwashing Shepard, even though all Asari have black eyes when preparing to have a mind-meld, and that the narrative cues are appropriate for the fact that Shepard is presumably about to die.[/quote]

Yes. All asari have black eyes when preparing to use their mind powers to interface with another being's consciousness. So Morinth's eyes turning black while she commands you to obey her couldn't possibly mean she's using her mind powers to interact with and influence Shepard's consciousness. That's just crazy talk. Your argument has successfully convinced me.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because the writers gave us Samara, our subject matter expert as to Morinth and AY in general, to give us a feel for what sort of threat we faced. And Samara told us how Morinth would manipulate our emotions via non-biotic, non-mind controlling ways.[/quote]

Samara says that Morinth will manipulate our emotions and twist out thoughts. She doesn't explicitly state that they're mind-controlling powers. Neither does she explicitly state that they're not mind-controlling powers. Frankly, I think Morinth's actions speak a bit louder than Samara's [lack of] words.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd believe otherwise if Samara, our subject matter expert and a person with a lifetime experience with Morinth, credited her with mind control powers.[/quote]

But saying that she'll get inside your head and twist your thoughts, and relating how she dominated and corrupted an entire village to worship her as a God and sacrifice their daughters and their lives for her doesn't count? Interesting.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd believe otherwise if Morinth, our potential resident AY, ever claimed mind control powers.[/quote]

So I guess Morinth actually using mind-control powers doesn't count because she didn't explicitly state that she was using them? Interesting.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd believe otherwise if Shepard, the victim on the spot, credited Morinth with mind control powers.[/quote]

So I guess the "Can't... think..." dialog selection leading to Shepard losing all rational thought and speaking like a zombie doesn't do that since Shepard didn't explicitly state he was being mind-controlled? Very interesting.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd believe otherwise if Mordin or Dr. Chakwas, medical professionals, credited Morinth with mind control powers.[/quote]

Why would Mordin and Dr. Chakwas know anything about an ultra-secret asari-exclusive group that is believed to be nothing more than superstition and fairy tales even among many asari?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd believe otherwise if TIM or his Cerberus Mission Summary, informed actors, credited Morinth with mind control powers.[/quote]

See previous answer.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd believe otherwise if the Codex credited Morinth or AY with mind control powers.[/quote]

The codex doesn't even have an entry on Ardat-Yakshi, so it's a little hard for it to credit them (or not credit them) with anything.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd even believe otherwise if Dominate, the skill you like to cling to as proof, credited Mind Control as the means of its domination.[/quote]

*cough*

"Brainwash an organic enemy, forcing him to attack his allies."

Nope. Doesn't sound like mind-control to me.

Ready to concede yet?

Modifié par JKoopman, 12 février 2011 - 02:13 .

[Pwener2313]

Good reason? There is no reason to save Morinth. She's a serial killer and saving her is the most evil choice Shepard can make.



KILL IT WITH BIOTIC FIRE!!!!!!

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Really? Because an interface representing a player-influenced lore aspect (Shepard's character and nature, and Shepard's ability to win friends and influence people) seems a mite different from a non-lore subscribed mechanic.

Sort of like how thermal clips, by lore, reload faster than thermal mechanics in the game do. I don't cry plot hole, I cry differentiation between lore and and gameplay. When gameplay does not contradict lore, it's good. When it does, lore wins.

And the gameplay does not contradict lore, based on your opinion in fact.

Where does Dominate call forth mind-control powers?

Moreover, why should gameplay supercede lore when we have far more examples of established lore being ignorred in gameplay?

you didn't address the cited source I provided, at all.

I didn't need to make direct reference, since it was already covered in the sum totals of my arguments.

No, this is not a Bond-esque situation, because in none of those situations did Bond completely relinquish control, or his very life for that matter, in bed.  This isn't sex and sexuality as some metaphorical weapon against male chauvinism like the Bond films tend to potray, or a woman who uses guile and charm to seduce Bond into a sexual situation, and then uses extraneous means to get the upper hand.  With what Shepard is facing, sex is literally the weapon that Morinth intends to use against Shepard; the sex is what is killing Morinth's targets. 

And if you pass a Paragon/Renegade check, a mechanic demonstration of a Shepard's strength of personality, Shepard doesn't lose control of the situation either. If you're good enough not to, you don't. If you aren't, you don't. Certainly Bond's victories against the sexual femme fatales weren't guaranteed by anything but movie plot armor.

But, yes, we can find examples in the Bond franchise where Bond let his pants (and his heart) get in the way of his objectivity and missionl and putting himself at risk for the pretty lady. It's sort of the charm.

I've seen stupid people do stupid things as well, this isn't an experience unique to you.  However, what you seem to be doing is greatly down-playing the gravitity of the situation presented to Shepard, and thus vastly underestimating Shepard's will power, intelligence, logical reasoning and common sense as a result.  People making mistakes because they are blinded by idealogy or religious belief or even affection are one thing; people leaping into the face of certain death over a one night stand is another thing entirely.  And the former isn't always necessarily attributed to stupidity either, nor should it always have to be, though there are obivously clear cut exceptions.  Morinth literally has to convince Shepard to die... for a one night stand.

And I've known people to sleep with people they know have AIDS. I've also known of men who would commit suicide for a woman, necessary or not. It does happen. It doesn't just happen to idiots. It might be embarassing to have it happen to you, but it's not a plot hole.

Shepard's will power is not 'infinite, plus renegade check.' Shepard's recognized will power is a reflection of his Paragon/Renegade score. If Shepard can't make a check, he doesn't have the will power, logical reasoning, and common sense to do the option.

No matter how much the player would like to believe otherwise.

How in the hell could the normally unflappable Shepard, privvy to the situation, suddenly be persuaded to throw their life away, not for idealogy, religion, or even affection, but for a one night stand with a sociopathic literal succubus who only intends to suck Shepard's life force away?

By having his emotions played by a first-class actor with large sex appeal who can make him lose his wits to remember why it's not worth it.

Shepard isn't always unflappable, and Morinth is good enough to have a shot at it.

[Undertone]

I don't like neither of them.

The reason to pick Morinth over Samara is her style of combat which I find more in-tune with mine. Out of the two I like Morinth's personality more.

But as I said I don't like neither of them. Samara is a foolish black&white moralist. I kill her in her loyalty mission. While Morinth is more likable then her mother due to being survivalist, realist, adventurous, smart and sexy, she is nonetheless a threat to my Shepard. I send her to die in the suicide mission.

So in general while I like Morinth as a person (and much more then her mother) I consider her powerful enough to oppose my Shepard. Thus she needs to die.

Modifié par Undertone, 12 février 2011 - 02:19 .

[Vociferation]

I've got Morinth running in 3 different playthroughs. Unless you've added Dominate to your powers, it's pretty handy in a tough battle to have meatbags turn on themselves. Not-to-mention three of my characters are completely evil...and I'm evenly split between Paragon and Renegade with two Sheps running up the middle. Honestly, is easier to influence if you sway one way or the other..evidence that being an indecisive fence rider will get you much less during key decisions.



ME states that if your character dies in ME2 that he/she won't make it to ME3. However, you can always replay and keep yourself alive. I assume that means if you stop playing after you first get killed. I can't imagine they have some code written in that if you ever died you won't play in the next game. That being said, I did a quick save and went for the uber death blow STD from Morinth...you get a woody and then whamo = you're dead. Reopen last save and all is well again.



If you're playing a renegade Shep...either Asari will gladly end you. Samara wants to waste you if your naughty...Morinth wants to waste you cause you're a hawty...hahaha. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...if Samara was your mommy...wouldn't you want to kill everything?

[AkiKishi]

Vociferation wrote...


ME states that if your character dies in ME2 that he/she won't make it to ME3. However, you can always replay and keep yourself alive. I assume that means if you stop playing after you first get killed. I can't imagine they have some code written in that if you ever died you won't play in the next game. That being said, I did a quick save and went for the uber death blow STD from Morinth...you get a woody and then whamo = you're dead. Reopen last save and all is well again.

I think it's refering to the final death in the last battle. On the upside if it does mean the whole game I've got one Shepard who did it clean

[DarkSeraphym]

Vociferation wrote...

ME states that if your character dies in ME2 that he/she won't make it to ME3. However, you can always replay and keep yourself alive. I assume that means if you stop playing after you first get killed. I can't imagine they have some code written in that if you ever died you won't play in the next game. That being said, I did a quick save and went for the uber death blow STD from Morinth...you get a woody and then whamo = you're dead. Reopen last save and all is well again.

It is a reference to Shepard's death scene in the final battle. The only way to successfully do it is to have gone into the game with none of the upgrades and essentially having done only a couple of loyalty missions while making the worst picks for the special positions during the mission. If you have under 2 left, Shepard dies and the only way to fix the save is to reload to one that came prior to the entire Suicide Mission (as you need these upgrades)/\\.

[JKoopman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where does Dominate call forth mind-control powers?

"Brainwash an organic enemy, forcing him to attack his allies."

Or are you still insisting that Morinth seduces Collectors into fighting each other with nothing more than her feminine wiles?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But, yes, we can find examples in the Bond franchise where Bond let his pants (and his heart) get in the way of his objectivity and missionl and putting himself at risk for the pretty lady. It's sort of the charm.

There's a big difference between James Bond putting himself "at risk" to a 'femme fatale' who potentially has a gun stashed under the pillow or a poison needle in her hair and James Bond knowingly engaging in sex with a woman whereby sex itself is the means of murder and engaging in the act is tantamount to suicide. I don't recall James Bond ever attempting to commit suicide or even expressing suicidal thoughts in any Bond films, so your comparison seems to fall flat on it's face.

I also notice that you've conveniently ignored my previous response. Any particular reason?

[Sajuro]

volus4life wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

volus4life wrote...

If her loyalty power Dominate is any indication, Morinth is capable of controlling weaker minds. I don't think she sweet talks or seduces those Collectors into attacking each other.

I don't think she uses a truly biotic power either, since biotics have no lore basis for doing mind-controlling at range. However, the game calls Dominate and Reave biotic powers, despite unbiotic effects.

regardless of whether dominate is a "biotic" power or not, she is capable of mind controlling her enemies. there is no way she can just seduce people mid-fight like you insinuate she did with shepard.

She probably uses the Asari meld ability in some warped version, just saying