276 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I wish there was a way we could have both... they both make me tight in the pants....

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Where does Dominate call forth mind-control powers?

Moreover, why should gameplay supercede lore when we have far more examples of established lore being ignorred in gameplay?

See, this is why I enjoy these internet debates: the way you pick and choose certain points while tap dancing around the others is truly interesting.  Here, since you ignored the part of the post which addressed that, let me repost it for you:

And another poster brought up the very good point that Dominate isn't merely some kind of charm or persuasion; it is very much complete mind control.  The example of using it against the collectors is absolutely perfect in illustrating the fact that the Dominate talent isn't just persuasion.

And go ahead and explain to me exactly how Dominate supercedes lore, when, I must mention yet again, I provided proof of lore that supports forms of mind control.  Your attempt to deflect:

I didn't need to make direct reference, since it was already covered in the sum totals of my arguments.

Did absolutely nothing to disprove the facts I presented.  I told you how Maelon references mind control in game, based on research done by Mordin Solus; Maelon has basically made it official that mind control does exist in in game canon. 

In case you didn't get my original post, let me simplify it further: Mind control is lore.  Dominate is mind control.  Dominate is lore.  If you're going to sit there and try to tell us that Morinth is able to convince the Krogan, the Mercs, and most of all, the Collectors to shoot each other, then I throw my hands up.  No amount of gameplay would supercede lore to such an extent.

And if you pass a Paragon/Renegade check, a mechanic demonstration of a Shepard's strength of personality, Shepard doesn't lose control of the situation either. If you're good enough not to, you don't. If you aren't, you don't. Certainly Bond's victories against the sexual femme fatales weren't guaranteed by anything but movie plot armor.

But, yes, we can find examples in the Bond franchise where Bond let his pants (and his heart) get in the way of his objectivity and missionl and putting himself at risk for the pretty lady. It's sort of the charm.

You addressed part of the argument but missed the key points that separate this from your bargain bin Bond scenario, missing the point I was trying to make.  Again I'll repost the part you choose to ignore, because it's actually important:

Not the knife strapped to her thigh, not the gun under the mattress, not the ice pick under her pillow, not the goons hiding in the closet.  This is more in tune to Succubus lore; that is what Shepard has to deal with.  For the partner, sex with a succubus is death, wholly and completely.  With Morinth, sex is death, wholly and completely.  Shepard
is privvy to this fact.

There are multiple points in game which reference to Morinth's having in common the succubus of lore.  This is actually important. 

And I've known people to sleep with people they know have AIDS. I've also known of men who would commit suicide for a woman, necessary or not. It does happen. It doesn't just happen to idiots. It might be embarassing to have it happen to you, but it's not a plot hole.

Shepard's will power is not 'infinite, plus renegade check.' Shepard's recognized will power is a reflection of his Paragon/Renegade score. If Shepard can't make a check, he doesn't have the will power, logical reasoning, and common sense to do the option.

No matter how much the player would like to believe otherwise.

And I've known people who have slept with people who had Herpes, I've known men who committed suicide because they were going to be NJP'd.  I know a guy who jumped off the 3rd story balcony of his Barracks during a tropical storm while wearing a poncho; he was drunk, he thought the poncho would act like a parachute.  My point, the examples you and I both have presented, are all examples of idiots. 

All the situations you mention do just happen to idiots, because what they're doing would be considered idiotic by normal human standards of logic and intelligent reasoning.  People who sleep with people who have AIDS, just for the sake of having sex, are idiots.  A guy commiting suicide for a woman unneccesarily, is an idiot.  Self sacrifice for the sake of her life is far different then outright suicide.  Basically, what you're saying with this:

By having his emotions played by a first-class actor with large sex appeal who can make him lose his wits to remember why it's not worth it.

Shepard isn't always unflappable, and Morinth is good enough to have a shot at it.

Is that Shepard is indeed an idiot.  Basically you're saying if Shepard doesn't have the willpower to resist Morinth's "powers of persuasion," they become a drooling moron whose problem solving skills suddenly de-evolve from savior of the galaxy, to drunk driving college frat boy in a Police parking lot stupid. 

Sleeping with a killer woman just to sleep with them is idiotic, it only happens to idiots.  Doesn't matter how many discertations you've written, how many Oscars you've got, how many championships you've won, how many galaxies you've saved.  You do something Darwin Award worthy, it's because you're an idiot; the Darwin Award is only given to idiots.  So by going off of your belief that Morinth doesn't have mind control powers, Shepard becomes a Darwin Award winning idiot if their Paragon or Renegade score isn't high enough.  You've made your point; this exchange is over.

Modifié par Konfined, 12 février 2011 - 06:56 .