276 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

JKoopman wrote...
Instead, it's hammered in your face that Morinth is a pitiless killer who gleefully murders her willfully-targeted victims, takes sadistic pleasure in preying on them and feels no regret whatsoever for any of her actions. There's no sympathy or pity there; she's just a cold-blooded murderer. Even for an extreme Renegade, it's hard to justify betraying Samara for any reason other than "for the lulz".

I'd argue that Morinth has both a greater sense of pragmatism and survival instinct than Samara - which means that Morinth takes the safety of the galaxy very seriously, because she lives there too.  Samara, on the other hand, once released from Shep's service, might try to kill him/her on a point of her ridiculously amoral 'Code,' even if it meant dooming the Galaxy to do so.  

[DarkSeraphym]

JKoopman wrote...

You know, I would agree with you if that was something the game attempted to rationalize in the least, but it doesn't. As far as Shepard should be concerned, Morinth is a sociopathic mass-murderer with a god complex who kills because she enjoys the hunt and nothing more.

BioWare really missed a golden opportunity to build up Morinth's character and make her a sympathetic figure. The choice between Morinth and Samara could've been one of the biggest moral debates in the game, but instead it's just made to be a simple black and white decision via Morinth's prior actions and dialog with Shepard.

It would've been great if Morinth could've caught on that you were working with Samara earlier in your conversation and attempted to sway you over to her side; she could've argued that Samara was the evil opressor and she herself was simply a free-spirit living with a terrible curse, whereas Samara was an unfeeling zealot. It could've even been revealed that Morinth trully loved all the people she killed and hated herself for it, painting her as a tragic figure. Then it would be up to Shepard to decide whether Samara's merciless quest to kill her was justified or not.

Instead, it's hammered in your face that Morinth is a pitiless killer who gleefully murders her willfully-targeted victims, takes sadistic pleasure in preying on them and feels no regret whatsoever for any of her actions. There's no sympathy or pity there; she's just a cold-blooded murderer. Even for an extreme Renegade, it's hard to justify betraying Samara for any reason other than "for the lulz".

Well, just for the sake of discussion, the only person who hammers into your face that Morinth is a pitiless killer is Samara and at one point when conversing with her about being a Justicar, she'll mention that if she has to kill a murderer than she'd rather not know any kind of redeeming qualities about tht individual. What that essentially says is that the Justicar Code demands her to act in a certain way and to keep herself from breaking it, she intentionally leaves out consideration of any kind of qualities in anyone she is after that could redeem them. Perhaps there is the relevant issue here of, like Morinth's word, exactly how much of Samara's word can we trust on the matter as well?

Perhaps BioWare ignored this option because the only person who really talks about Morinth is her mother, and I've already pointed out the biggest problem with just accepting what Samara says as the entire truth, so they saw little opportunity to really elaborate more on Morinth? Even if they had given you an opportunity to hear Morinth's side of the story, which probably would have only been possible from her as only Samara and her family knew Morinth's true nature, would you believe her anyways?

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 09 février 2011 - 01:17 .

[Flamewielder]

One can also go over to any WWII war veteran and ask him if he would enjoy knowing that the 2-3 enemy combattants he killed when storming that pill box on the beaches of Normandy happened to be loving fathers as well? Ah yes... Veterans are moral people... We have dismissed that claim.

[DarkSeraphym]

Flamewielder wrote...

One can also go over to any WWII war veteran and ask him if he would enjoy knowing that the 2-3 enemy combattants he killed when storming that pill box on the beaches of Normandy happened to be loving fathers as well? Ah yes... Veterans are moral people... We have dismissed that claim.

I'm a little confused as to where you were going with this. Was this meant to be an attack on my argument? Was this meant to support my argument? I'm not trying to be offensive, just trying to figure out whether or not I need to support that idea a little more.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 09 février 2011 - 01:24 .

[Flamewielder]

It wasn't directed at your argument, which is quite valid. While we may assume that Samara is being sincere in her statement, we must also keep in mind they are her personal convictions/perceptions and thus convey only part of the story. The same can be said of Morinth: I don't doubt Morinth is sincere when she states her mother never loved her, because it is her perception of things (even though Samara's LotSB dossier seems to confirm Samara's stated love of her children).



The comment I made was more to challenge people's notions of what is considered moral/amoral.

[AkiKishi]

Dominate is a lot of fun.

[Flamewielder]

@Dark



One argument in favor of Samara's sincerity in her statements is that she apparently does not embellish her role as a Justicar. Her statements are rather frank and obviously shocking some. I'd be less inclined to believe her had she been more... "diplomatic" in her demeanor or attempted to defend the ethics of the Code.



That being said, I also consider Morinth sincere in her expressed views of the situation. She has no reason to lie to Shepard unless she intends to feed on him/her, something Shep pretty much has to express an interest in before Morinth will consider it.

[Flamewielder]

@Bob



So is AI Hacking. I think pretty much everyone will choose Morinth at least once to unlock Dominate, if only to reload immediately after. But the OP's question also asks if there are moral/story-telling reasons to choose Morinth over her mother.

[vanslyke85]

for me it's not even an option. even in my renegade playthroughs i'm decent enough to samara that she says she'll help me if i call on her even after the current mission. which means if she survives she could have an impact in ME3 which would be cool.

[DarkSeraphym]

Flamewielder wrote...

@Dark

One argument in favor of Samara's sincerity in her statements is that she apparently does not embellish her role as a Justicar. Her statements are rather frank and obviously shocking some. I'd be less inclined to believe her had she been more... "diplomatic" in her demeanor or attempted to defend the ethics of the Code.

That being said, I also consider Morinth sincere in her expressed views of the situation. She has no reason to lie to Shepard unless she intends to feed on him/her, something Shep pretty much has to express an interest in before Morinth will consider it.

Well, my argument was never that you should question everything that Samara has to say. My argment was more so a counterargument to a recurring theme that Morinth is a caniving snake and that, as such, nothing she says should ever be held as truth (which is an ad hominem attack). I was merely pointing out that if we wish to dwell upon that logical fallacy for most of the debate on the matter, then we also have to call into question whether or not Samara is a reliable source of truth into Morinth's character given the fact that her code wishes to categorize people as being a moral system of black or white.

Likewise, it was also meant to be a response to OP's questioning of why BioWare ignored the opportunity to flesh out Morinth's character. If you are getting all of your information from a single character, which at the time was the only possibility, you are going to be limited to their perceptions on that individual, as you pointed out earlier. Even had Morinth come out and said "I didn't want to be locked away like my sisters. I wanted to be free. I knew I had to do whatever it took to stop my mom from capturing me. I knew I had to become more powerful just to even stand a chance against my mom", which are valid in my opinion, would anyone here be inclined to believe her given how much trust is automatically put upon what Samara says about her daughter? If such a story did exist for Morinth, you certainly wouldn't be hearing it from Samara as she openly claims that even had she considered such events, she would not be able to act upon them as the Code mandates what her actions on the situation are to be.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 09 février 2011 - 02:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Then your 'renegade' playthrough is majority Paragon.



Assuming you do her loyalty mission in her favor, her end-state is entirely dependent on your score, not your interaction with her.

[Flamewielder]

@Dark
We can also validate any character's statements against Codex entries and hazard a guess at to how close a character's statement might be to "the truth". Granted, Codex entries have sometimes contradicted "out-of-game" info posted on the website. Wether you choose to treat the Codex version as canon is up to you.

Codex entries regarding Justicars and A-Y appear to confirm Samara's statements and do not contradict any of Morinth's either. We may agree or disagree with Morinth's view of things. But we are shown that she is a sociopath, whose medical condition prevents from ever developing the level of empathy normal among healthy asari. That alone would only make her a mental patient, if it wasn't for the lethal effect of her bonding and the addiction she developped to the experience.

The combination of the last two elements is what makes her a dangerous serial killer. She kills, deriving pleasure from it (and apparently power/experience as well) and is irredeemably addicted to this. She'll kill, and kill, and kill again until she is stopped. And having managed to run for 400 years, it is obvious that dangerous A-Y's are too powerful to be dealt with by normal law-enforcement agencies. Hence the handing over of execution lists to the Justicars who are charged with the prosecution of these killers (ref: Codex entry).

Now the asari have a choice: lock the A-Y for life in a padded cell and let it suffer through a few centuries of withdrawal symptoms (dangerous, if the A-Y has Dominate/Reave) or kill them. I'll let you guess what the asari decided was the more "humane" solution...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 09 février 2011 - 02:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Flame, since when has mental stability been a prerequisite for Shepard's dirty dozen? I certainly wouldn't credit Samara as mentally fit: normal, healthy people don't abandon their remaining family, throw away all their possessions, and spend significant fractions of their lives fixated on killing a single runaway.



And on the contrary, we can see Morinth's fleeing across jurisdictions to the back-realms where there is no law enforcement as a sign that she is not too powerful: if she was, she wouldn't need to flee.

[DarkSeraphym]

Flamewielder wrote...

@Dark
We can also validate character's statements against Codex entries and hazard a guess at to how close a character's statement might be to "the truth". Granted, Codex entries have sometimes contradicted "out-of-game" info posted on the website. Wether you choose to treat the Codex version as canon is up to you.
Codex entries regarding Justicars and A-Y appear to confirm Samara's statements and do not contradict any of Morinth's either. We may agree or disagree with Morinth's view of things. But we are shown that she is a sociopath, whose medical condition prevents from ever developing the level of empathy normal among healthy asari. That alone would only make her a mental patient, if it wasn't for the lethal effect of her bonding and the addiction she developped to the experience. The combination of the last two elements is what makes her a dangerous serial killer. She kills, deriving pleasure from it (and apparently power/experience as well) and is irredeemably addicted to this. She'll kill, and kill, and kill again until she is stopped. And having managed to run for 400 years, it is obvious that dangerous A-Y's are too powerful to be dealt with by normal law-enforcement agencies.
Now the asari have a choice: lock the A-Y for life in a padded cell and let it suffer through a few centuries of withdrawal symptoms (dangerous, if the A-Y has Dominate/Reave) or kill them. I'll let you guess what the asari decided was the more "humane" solution...

I always treat the Codex as the authority. I'm certainly not calling into question whether or not their treatment of the Ardat-Yakshi is justified either (it is as far as I am concerned).

Likewise, I won't disagree that she is a sociopath. That much is obvious and the codex says that much as well. However, it is illogical to assume that because she is a sociopath that anything she says must be lying, which is by far the most common argument I have ever seen for why Morinth should not be trusted on anything. Definitely pragmatic, but illogical nonetheless as her personal characteristics should not determine whether or not some of the things she says are valid.

Dean the Young summed up more or less why, if we need to call into question Morinth's character, we should do the same for Samara. This is off topic but personally, I find it fascinating that so many people fell in love with Samara and totally discredit a lot of the Renegade options as too "ruthless", especially those of Paragon morality, despite the fact that Samara would have been in favor of slaughtering Fist, Shiala, any of the criminals from Mass Effect that had a paragon option for placing them under arrest, and that Asari girl on Virmire.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 09 février 2011 - 02:53 .

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Flame, since when has mental stability been a prerequisite for Shepard's dirty dozen? I certainly wouldn't credit Samara as mentally fit: normal, healthy people don't abandon their remaining family, throw away all their possessions, and spend significant fractions of their lives fixated on killing a single runaway.

Considering that the Codex entry states that A-Y's are taken over from their families and put in controlled labor programs or, if too dangerous, offered a choice between life-time seclusion or execution, I think the correct description of the situation is that Samara's children were taken from her. (ref Codex, LotSB dossier)

And on the contrary, we can see Morinth's fleeing across jurisdictions to the back-realms where there is no law enforcement as a sign that she is not too powerful: if she was, she wouldn't need to flee.

Being able to seduce a whole village into having them sacrifice their daughters to her as a godess demonstrates rather exceptional charisma/power of persuasion... which could be an expression of her nascent Dominate "loyalty" power. The "seduction" scene in Morinth's appartment is played in classical vampire movie style, with Shep's Paragon/Renegade score used as an expression of Shep's willpower.

I can totally envision Morinth seducing her way out of any normal prison...

But you're right, it's not the sociopathy I'd be worried about if I brought her onboard (ref Jack/Grunt)... the Dominate/Death by Snu-Snu combo certainly would, however!

Modifié par Flamewielder, 09 février 2011 - 03:07 .

[Flamewielder]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I always treat the Codex as the authority. I'm certainly not calling into question whether or not their treatment of the Ardat-Yakshi is justified either (it is as far as I am concerned).

And that's where I'll throw you a curve ball: do you feel the treatment of non-dangerous A-Y (i.e. sent into monitored labor programs (i.e. camps?)) is justified? After all, most humans manage to develop enough empathy to lead normal happy lives without the benefits of mind melding...  A-Y's are the asari's shameful secret; by keeping them hidden from other races, are they denying the "safe" ones a chance at happy lives among, say, humans?

The dangerous ones are, of course a different problem... I like Samara, but I also like the whole A-Y issue because it adds a few interesting flaws to the asari as a culture. It creates lots of angles for story development. So choosing between Samara and Morinth is not such an easy choice to make once you stop and think about it. And I think it makes both characters more interesting.

[Biotic_Warlock]

As a paragon... and i like choosing Morinth.
I have the either mistaken, dumb or applaudable feeling of Pity for Morinth. And im afraid i did something bad and Samara would kick my butt for it =(
Though if She started hitting on meh crew... she'll have sweet dreams... in hell -mwahaha!

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 09 février 2011 - 03:30 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Flamewielder wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I always treat the Codex as the authority. I'm certainly not calling into question whether or not their treatment of the Ardat-Yakshi is justified either (it is as far as I am concerned).

And that's where I'll throw you a curve ball: do you feel the treatment of non-dangerous A-Y (i.e. sent into monitored labor programs (i.e. camps?)) is justified? After all, most humans manage to develop enough empathy to lead normal happy lives without the benefits of mind melding...  A-Y's are the asari's shameful secret; by keeping them hidden from other races, are they denying the "safe" ones a chance at happy lives among, say, humans?

The dangerous ones are, of course a different problem... I like Samara, but I also like the whole A-Y issue because it adds a few interesting flaws to the asari as a culture. It creates lots of angles for story development. So choosing between Samara and Morinth is not such an easy choice to make once you stop and think about it. And I think it makes both characters more interesting.

I'm going to toss your curve ball back . Earlier, you pointed out a codex listing that mentioned the sociopathic tendencies of the Ardat-Yakshi and mentioned that it was highly likely that Morinth will probably never stop killing so long as she isn't stopped. Likewise, the only "safe" Ardat-Yakshi we have found in the game are those who are currently locked up. So my question for you is how do we know that any Ardat-Yakshi that isn't under "treatment" is in fact not dangerous?

Moving on, I wish they would have added more realistic components to the problems of recruiting Samara. I had to listen to Jacob rant about how Thane wasn't welcome because he was an assassin, how Legion should be "scrapped", and commentary on why Grunt should not be released from Miranda. Yet, I barely hear either of them complain about me recruiting an Asari Justicar onto a ship filled with some of the galaxy's most dangerous individuals. I don't know about you, but if I were half of the recruitment options I would have some words to say about that. In fact, that in of itself should have probably warranted one of those "loyalty checks" where you'll have to persuade those who have a problem with it to fall in line or risk losing loyalty. They would have had a particularly brilliant opportunity for an issue like this between Samara and Thane as I'm sure that Samara would have some words for why Thane believes he should not feel guilt for killing others.

I also find the idea of respect amongst the Asari culture for the Justicars to be kind of paradoxical. The Asari have a political system based upon a true democracy. They are in favor of giving everyone a voice in that system and doing things on a consensus as a result. Likewise, such cultures also tend to favor individual rights and personal liberties (hell, most republics today have gotten rid of the death penalty as it takes away one's right to live). . Yet, if this is the case, why does a culture that revolves around these principles show any kind of respect for a minor group of powerful biotics who take justice into their own hands, especially when the justice they embrace is more so in favor of draconian punishments reminescent of the Middle Ages?

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 09 février 2011 - 04:56 .

[LorDC]

If I have a choice of two mad serial killers I will choose one that does not try to look like knight in shining armor. So it's Morinth, obviously.

[jbblue05]

I choose Morinth

Samara will kill you if your red bar is higher

Morinth will kill you if you mind-meld with her. Their are other ways to have snu-snu

Modifié par jbblue05, 09 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

jbblue05 wrote...

I choose Morinth

Samara will kill you if your red bar is higher

Morinth will kill you if you mind-meld with her. Their are other ways to have snu-snu

Unless u make a reaper version of morinth... then let the reapers kill themselves and deal with mo-reaper last.
(that probably made me sound like a loony - but was worth it  )

[Dean_the_Young]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I also find the idea of respect amongst the Asari culture for the Justicars to be kind of paradoxical. The Asari have a political system based upon a true democracy. They are in favor of giving everyone a voice in that system and doing things on a consensus as a result. Likewise, such cultures also tend to favor individual rights and personal liberties (hell, most republics today have gotten rid of the death penalty as it takes away one's right to live). . Yet, if this is the case, why does a culture that revolves around these principles show any kind of respect for a minor group of powerful biotics who take justice into their own hands, especially when the justice they embrace is more so in favor of draconian punishments reminescent of the Middle Ages?

Why do Americans like Batman?

[DarkSeraphym]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I also find the idea of respect amongst the Asari culture for the Justicars to be kind of paradoxical. The Asari have a political system based upon a true democracy. They are in favor of giving everyone a voice in that system and doing things on a consensus as a result. Likewise, such cultures also tend to favor individual rights and personal liberties (hell, most republics today have gotten rid of the death penalty as it takes away one's right to live). . Yet, if this is the case, why does a culture that revolves around these principles show any kind of respect for a minor group of powerful biotics who take justice into their own hands, especially when the justice they embrace is more so in favor of draconian punishments reminescent of the Middle Ages?

Why do Americans like Batman?

I'm not so certain that is a great comparison.

Batman doesn't kill criminals. Likewise, Batman doesn't pull the rug right out from the legal system and try/prosecute those same criminals himself. If I'm not mistaken (do correct me if I am wrong), Batman captures the bad guys and then leaves them for the cops for deal with. That is not at all what Samara does.

Batman also isn't in the "dimension" of America, he is in the literary dimension of Gotham where there is a recurring theme of many people in Gotham wanting to treat him like a criminal because he enforces the laws himself. Yet, in the defense of Batman, at least he is just enforcing already existant laws of Gotham's legal system. As far as we know, Samara is going off an extralegal source that probably doesn't have the same penal system that the Asari legal system would. Of course, that is just speculation.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 09 février 2011 - 05:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Batman sure does illegal harm. When the Justicars are associated with a standard of 'they kill bad people', most people don't muster up much empathy.



Even though, far more terrifyingly, its isn't that the Justicars claim to only kill the unjust, but their claim is that the people they kill are unjust.



I suppose I could bring out the list of vigilantes that do kill criminals, but the point isn't Batman in particular (his non-lethal policy wasn't always so), but vigilantes in general.