276 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Sort of like that persuasion check you have to pass to not sleep with her once you recruit her?



She's not a rapist, you know.

[Rafe34]

@Dean: The mission is over when the collector base is destroyed, obviously. As soon as that occurs, Samara is a threat to a Renegade Shephard. That's why she dies during the assault on the Collector base.

If you read up on Justicars, Samara, by her very definition isn't going to break her promise. If she does, she is pretty much no longer a Justicar, and thus, no longer would be a threat.

Morinth is a threat because if she ever THINKS she can kill someone on the Normandy- someone she wants to kill- and get away with it, she probably will do so.

I take the evil I know, over the evil I don't. When you recruit Morinth, you honestly have no reason to recruit her, because the only information you have on ardat-yakshi comes from Aria T'Loak and Samara- and neither indicate that it would be a smart idea.

A lot of people have a knee-jerk reaction against Samara because she's a fanatic- and she is, I'm not denying that. But in her fanatical little world, there is no room, no logic, for why she would break her oath to Shephard. As long as that oath stands, Shephard and her crew are safe. As soon as the mission is over, any Renegades that Samara knows about are in danger- which is again, why she dies in the assault. It would not make sense for Samara to break her oath to Shephard.

What you're saying is that we should put more trust in a sociopath NOT to kill someone, than a fanatic to keep their word. Samara is Lawful... something between Neutral and Evil, in my mind. Morinth is clearly a killer for the pleasure it brings. You tell me not to mistake her for a mindless monster. Don't forget that she is, in fact, a monster, and underestimating her is not a wise career move.

As well, I disagree with you saying that Morinth won't necessarily kill someone if she can't get off the ship. She kills Shephard if s/he agrees to sleep with Morinth- very little chance she gets off the ship after that, but she can't help herself, almost, she wants Shephard too badly.

If a similar situation pops up with another crew member, I wouldn't trust the sociopath to reign in her killer instincts, as it were. Samara, otoh, is bound by an oath- and from all Shephard knows about Justicars, she isn't going to break it until the mission is complete.

Modifié par Rafe34, 10 février 2011 - 06:44 .

[Rafe34]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She's not a rapist, you know.

Samara's loyalty mission says otherwise. Using your asari powers to convince someone to sleep with you is rape, in my book. It's the same as forcing it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rafe34 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She's not a rapist, you know.

Samara's loyalty mission says otherwise. Using your asari powers to convince someone to sleep with you is rape, in my book. It's the same as forcing it.

Samara's loyalty mission marks her as a black-widow seductress, not a rapist. The only force she uses is force of will, which is about as capable of moving you against your will as a hair-dryer.

[Rafe34]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She's not a rapist, you know.

Samara's loyalty mission says otherwise. Using your asari powers to convince someone to sleep with you is rape, in my book. It's the same as forcing it.

Samara's loyalty mission marks her as a black-widow seductress, not a rapist. The only force she uses is force of will, which is about as capable of moving you against your will as a hair-dryer.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

I completely do not see it that way. At all. Morinth overrides Shep's willpower, unless it is exceptionally strong, (full paragon/renegade), and would have killed her had Samara not intervened.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rafe34 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She's not a rapist, you know.

Samara's loyalty mission says otherwise. Using your asari powers to convince someone to sleep with you is rape, in my book. It's the same as forcing it.

Samara's loyalty mission marks her as a black-widow seductress, not a rapist. The only force she uses is force of will, which is about as capable of moving you against your will as a hair-dryer.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

I completely do not see it that way. At all. Morinth overrides Shep's willpower, unless it is exceptionally strong, (full paragon/renegade), and would have killed her had Samara not intervened.

Killed with Shepard's consent.

Morinth has the ability to make a persuasion check against Shepard. That's no more force or overpowering than Shepard making his Paragon/Renegade check right back.

[Abispa]

Morinth isn't raping people because she only uses force of will? The last time I checked, an Asari's force of will can "hit [someone] with a biotic barrier so strong that what's left of him won't fill up a coffee cup."

[twisty77]

I only chose Morinth once(on my pure Renegade) out of my 6 runthroughs, and she turned out to be a wholly boring character on the ship. Said the same damn thing every time I went to talk to her. I think that was runthrough #4 and even on my last renegade playthrough(#6) I chose Samara. It might backfire in ME3, though. We will just have to wait and see...

[Dean_the_Young]

Abispa wrote...

Morinth isn't raping people because she only uses force of will? The last time I checked, an Asari's force of will can "hit [someone] with a biotic barrier so strong that what's left of him won't fill up a coffee cup."

Then you checked wrong.

Force of will isn't biotics. It refers to the strength and persuasiveness of personality.

[Flamewielder]

Not to mention Dominate, which, as the name says last time I checked, is imposing your will on organic beings and have them do things against their will, such as attacking their allies... A power that, as it so happens, Morinth enjoys...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 10 février 2011 - 08:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...

Not to mention Dominate, which, as the name says last time I checked, is imposing your will on on organic beings and have them do things against their will, such as attacking their allies... A power that, as it so happens, Morinth enjoys using...

Dominate as a skill is a gameplay mechanic, not a lore mechanic. Same with Reave. There's nothing external implied about Morinth's persuasive abilities.

You can dominate in a lot of ways without forcing someone against their will. Infact, most domination occurs with the consent of the dominated, coerced or otherwise, but nothing really implies coercion (biotic or otherwise) with Morinth.

[Flamewielder]

Ah... so your're saying that husks consent to being dominated by Morinth into playin' in the mosh pit?

[AkiKishi]

It's a bit off topic, but what do you think would happen if an Ardat Yakshi came in contact with an indoctrination field?



She's tries to dominate you when you are in her appartment so I'm going to agree with the mind rape theory.

[Someone With Mass]

I only chose her once to unlock Dominate as bonus power. Other than that, I fail to see the point in picking her over Samara besides being a Renegade.



I guess if she was a little more like Dexter and had conflicts about these murders, I'd think about it a bit more. But the fact that she's just doing it for the kicks and doesn't care about her victims at all makes me pick Samara without hesitation.

[Abispa]

Asari can make people see an idealized female version of whatever species is looking at them [note the bachelor party scene at the Illium bar], and that subtle form of mind-control seems to be something they can do with minimal effort. That suggests Asari possess psychic abilities beyond biotics and probably explains why their biotics are so much more powerful. Perhaps she isn't beating up sexual victims into submission with biotic barriers, but her influence can be equated to slipping her victims a Mickey to overcome their inhibitions, which is still rape. Try that in real life and enjoy your 15 year jail sentence [or life if you decided to murder your victim afterward].

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...

Ah... so your're saying that husks consent to being dominated by Morinth into playin' in the mosh pit?

If you quoted, you might have seen 'gameplay mechanic vs lore mechanic' referenced in my position.

[Spectre_907]

Why would I want to choose someone who, moments earlier, was going to kill me?

[Flamewielder]

What I'm getting at is, the whole "seduction" scene with Shep and Samara's relation of the cult incident sound like an in-story implementation of the Dominate power. Unfortunately, Shepard never stops to ask the mooks how Dominate felt like, so we're left with that scene... and from what we've seen in ME1 and ME2, "embracing eternity" only requires a couple of seconds and when you realize you're being snu-snued, it's too late. Dominate can give Morinth the fwe seconds she needs to drain someone.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 10 février 2011 - 08:22 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Killed with Shepard's consent.

Morinth has the ability to make a persuasion check against Shepard. That's no more force or overpowering than Shepard making his Paragon/Renegade check right back.

I wouldn't call what happens in the apartment persuasion just because it uses the charm/intimidation mechanics as ways to counter Morinth's mind-domination.

It's clear she's using some sort of asari related ability (not biotics) to mind-control Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Why would I want to choose someone who, moments earlier, was going to kill me?

Because what she has done in the past is irrelevant to what she can do for you in the future.

If we killed everyone who had ever almost gotten us killed, the galaxy would be an empty place.

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If we killed everyone who had ever almost gotten us killed, the galaxy would be an empty place.

Sounds a lot like playing a Renegade.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Killed with Shepard's consent.

Morinth has the ability to make a persuasion check against Shepard. That's no more force or overpowering than Shepard making his Paragon/Renegade check right back.

I wouldn't call what happens in the apartment persuasion just because it uses the charm/intimidation mechanics as ways to counter Morinth's mind-domination.

It's clear she's using some sort of asari related ability (not biotics) to mind-control Shepard.

Asari have never been given or referred to have any sort of compulsion ability, whereas Samara explicitly calls Morinth's persuasive abilities a result of acting skills and personality.

Whereas, the clear evidence of it being anything but that is...

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...

What I'm getting at is, the whole "seduction" scene with Shep and Samara's relation of the cult incident sound like an in-story implementation of the Dominate power. Unfortunately, Shepard never stops to ask the mooks how Dominate felt like, so we're left with that scene... and from what we've seen in ME1 and ME2, "embracing eternity" only requires a couple of seconds and when you realize you're being snu-snued, it's too late. Dominate can give Morinth the fwe seconds she needs to drain someone.

It's gameplay mechanic and lore separation. Similar to Jack's difference beween being able to take out three YMIR mechs at once, before being... what she was.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Killed with Shepard's consent.

Morinth has the ability to make a persuasion check against Shepard. That's no more force or overpowering than Shepard making his Paragon/Renegade check right back.

I wouldn't call what happens in the apartment persuasion just because it uses the charm/intimidation mechanics as ways to counter Morinth's mind-domination.

It's clear she's using some sort of asari related ability (not biotics) to mind-control Shepard.

Asari have never been given or referred to have any sort of compulsion ability, whereas Samara explicitly calls Morinth's persuasive abilities a result of acting skills and personality.

Whereas, the clear evidence of it being anything but that is...

So the finale middle dialog with Morinth in the apartment where Shepard goes all "I will do anything for you" is just the result of Morinth making a convincing arguement which makes Shepard change his mind and think that having sex with Morinth is okay, despite him knowing that doing so will get him killed?

Okay...

"EDIT"

Also Mordin's comment when on Illium along with the bachelor party suggest that asari can make themselve more appealing to other people. So Morinth having some sort of Über-version of it is not that far-fetched.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 10 février 2011 - 08:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Killed with Shepard's consent.

Morinth has the ability to make a persuasion check against Shepard. That's no more force or overpowering than Shepard making his Paragon/Renegade check right back.

I wouldn't call what happens in the apartment persuasion just because it uses the charm/intimidation mechanics as ways to counter Morinth's mind-domination.

It's clear she's using some sort of asari related ability (not biotics) to mind-control Shepard.

Asari have never been given or referred to have any sort of compulsion ability, whereas Samara explicitly calls Morinth's persuasive abilities a result of acting skills and personality.

Whereas, the clear evidence of it being anything but that is...

So the finale middle dialog with Morinth in the apartment where Shepard goes all "I will do anything for you" is just the result of Morinth making a convincing arguement which makes Shepard change his mind and think that having sex with Morinth is okay, despite him knowing that doing so will get him killed?

Okay...

Now you know what a Paragon/Renegade check looks like from the other side. You don't need a convincing argument. You just need to be persuasive, which is a separate thing: there are all sort of reasons other than 'convincing arguments' that get people to do things they otherwise wouldn't. Fear, love, lust, trust, empathy. Emotional appeals, generally.

Certainly no one can argue that Shepard having sex with Morinth after recruiting her was anything but his/her (and the player's) own will.

Also Mordin's comment when on Illium along with the bachelor party
suggest that asari can make themselve more appealing to other people. So
Morinth having some sort of Über-version of it is not that far-fetched.

Asari don't 'make' themselves more attractive against other species wills: the scene is a variation of 'four blind men and an elephant'. No insinuation of forciful conversion of thought is made or implied.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 février 2011 - 08:57 .