310 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

So, once upon a time, Moiassui got annoyed with me pointing out the flaws of the Council (in order to state my case about the Illusive Man in his own evil thread) and asked me to put it into my own thread about the Council, so I decided to bite the bullet so to speak and do it here.

I dimly remember making (or thinking about making) a thread like this quite a while ago, but I think now that most people have probably played through the first and second games and probably devoured the 'expanded universe' merchandise to better form their own opinions; and that is: 'Is the Council really good?'

I ask this question because it seems that the majority of people who are anti-Cerberus are completely pro-Council, and I feel that this is a baffling position to take and here's my thought process, bear in mind however that some of my issues with the Council are 'half-formed' if only because I don't have information to the contrary.

1. AI research is Illegal
From what I have heard, the Council had declared AI research to be illegal well in advance to the Quarian's deciding to build the Geth, and any companies/nations discovered to be building AI platforms (without their explicit permission; like Synthetic Insights) seems to be quite perplexing. Their actions against this research means that any device of synthetic intelligence (or Artificial Intelligence) is essentially summarily executed, and is an enforced repression on an intelligence.

Granted, pretty much every AI that we've met have tried to kill us, but to paraphrase Admiral Koris: "Of course [they do], we kill them."

2. 'Old Boys' club(paragon only)
There is still, despite the Alliance's ascendence into the ranks of the Citadel Council, a power clique against Humanity. This is demonstrated during the events of ME2 where Councillor Anderson requests 'increased access to the Council's space tracking network.' Why doesn't the Alliance, already a member of the Council, have this?

3. The Quarian/Geth conflict
The Quarian's were an associate species that seemed (at least by hindsight) to have been on the cusp of member status themselves considering their technological proficiency, the number of colonies they're implied to of had and the volume of ships they have when they were forced to run (with presumably sufficient naval assets to remain even after being evicted from their home system to protect themselves against mercenaries etc).

What exactly are the rights and responsibilities do the Council have? Presumably the council started off somewhat as a way to promote trade between species, and slowly due to the effect of pirates, they must of needed to protect themselves to some degree in order to later legalise a Turian led fleet that operates in the Council's name.

What I'm getting at is this: The Council must have deliberately not involved themselves with the Quarian quarrel (har har harrrr) even though the AI threat is supposedly a serious threat for the Council, and despite the fact that the Quarian's probably deserved the support of their allies, even if they weren't able to be supported by the 'Council' as is simply because non Quarian's also died in the conflict (Erinya's bondmate for example.)

4. The Genophage
The Genophage was declared retroactively illegal after it's deployment by a guilty conscience Citadel Council. It would be classed as a TIER II type weapon:

src: http://masseffect.wi...del_Conventions
TIER II: Uncontrolled self-replicating weapons, such as nanotechnology, viral or bacteriological organisms, "Von Neumann devices", and destructive computer viruses. These weapons can lie dormant for millennia, waiting for a careless visitor to carry them on to another world.

Presumably; the scientists responsible for working on the Genophage (whether it was 'justified' or not is actually irrelevant) did not suffer censure. The most amazing thing about it though is that the Citadel Council implicitly or explicitly sanctioned the deployment of the Genophage 2.0 despite it's illegality.

5. Spectres
The Spectre's themselves can not be considered a force of good if they are tasked with vast descretionary powers. Each Spectre is a judge, jury and executioner (queue mental images of Judge Dredd) and typically 'answer' to the Council. However, if what Tela Vasir says is true, the problem is that the Council frequently doesn't ask the 'questions' in the first place. They aren't accountable because the Council doesn't generally hold them to account.

6. Ekuna
The Quarian's may have erred somewhat in not 'deigning' to immediately notify the Council of their intent to settle the world prior to settling it, but the Council a) Failed to show compassion to one of their associate species (or former associate species) that are fleeing the catastrophe that was the homeworld (even if it was one of their own making) Forced an eviction by threatening planetary bombardment and c) Awarded it to the Elcor seemingly just to spite the Quarian's.

7. The Krogan Rebellions
Ever found it odd that conveniently the Krogan Rebellions only became the Krogan Rebellions until after the Krogan attacked an Asari colony world? This is despite their actions on other associate species homeworld's (and no doubt the petitioning those species did to the Council). I'd hate to risk invoking Godwin's law this early, but to me it makes me think somewhat of Europe's appeasement to **** Germany before the war broke out (I'm guessing then that this parallel was deliberate).

8. Medi-gel
You may wonder why I include this because the substance is highly useful, but lets face it, it's still (technically) illegal because it contravenes laws under genetic engineering. Personally I think this is a triumph of common sense over bureaucracy, but it's still (technically) a falling of the Council and it's ability to enforce laws (unless they gave Sirta Foundation a 'license' to produce their product in the same way they gave Synthetic Insights a license to pursue Artificial Intelligence, but I don't think it would be possible for the Council to give the 'license' because they don't actually own Medi-Gel if you know what I mean).

[AkiKishi]

They are politicains... Can politicians ever be good ? They uphold the status quo is about the best you can say of them.

[PauseforEffect]

Pretty much the above post: they are politicians and will exploit every advantage. Humanity's difficulty in the power status even as members would be Shepard's fault for appointing an honest man like Anderson. Between the three of them, they seemed like US's government with an attempt to balance power. Not perfect, but working so far.

[Nightwriter]

1. AI research is illegal
The game is actually contradictory about this. The Codex says it was the geth rebellion that caused widespread regulation of AI. Your conversations with Tali imply the laws were already in existence.

2. 'Old Boys' club(paragon only)
Well, yes. It's to be expected. We are new. It totally sucks. Freshmen all over again. Way of the world and all that.

3. The Quarian/Geth conflict
Harrumph, I say. I don't care much for the way the Council acted here.

4. The Genophage
Well it would be a bit awkward to punish people for a necessary act, grim as it might have been - especially when that necessary act was committed before it was declared illegal.

5. Spectres
But Spectres are space cowboys! Playing a space cowboy is cool!

6. Ekuna
Ugh. Don't get me started. The quarians committed a faux pas by settling the world before they asked for permission, but not enough of a faux pas to excuse the Council kicking them off what might well have become their new homeworld and an end to their nomadic wanderings. It's like the Council did it out of spite.

7. The Krogan Rebellions
I seem to remember Garrus saying something about people not acknowledging the threat until the enemy is at the gate. It was very true. This is not due to the nature of the Council, but to the nature of people.

8. Medi-gel
It was totally a victory of common sense over bureaucracy. I don't see it as particularly damning on the Council's part, however.

[SandTrout]

People on these boards routinely give the finger to TIM and Cerberus, and with good reason, but not nearly enough take a good look at the Council without their rose-colored glasses.

The Council is a restrictive organization that exists for the sole purpose of oppressing other species. Associate members gain no tangible benefits from membership other than access to trade with other members, and are occasionally threatened with, and very rarely protected by, the Citadel fleet.

The Council has never used force against offenses within 'Citadel Space' unless one of the member species was also being threatened.

Council Edicts seem to only be enforced at the Council's convenience. AI is illegal, so we wont come to the Quarians' aid, even though they didn't create it intentionally, and once they realized what had happened, did their best to contain the threat. Biological weapons are illegal, until the Krogan start expanding too quickly. Slavery is illegal, but the Batarians were a convenient blind spot until they started acting up in the Traverse.

The Specters are the only reason that the Council still exists. They are the classic secret police, but instead of being under strict orders, they're under almost no orders at all, but instead are given very broad objectives to achieve and few restrictions on the means to do so.

Hell, the only reason that the Asari stepped in to stop the Turians during the FCW was because the Alliance proved that it would bloody the Turians pretty good before being brought to heel, and that might have woken up other Associate members to rebel from council authority.

The Turians only attacked the Human vessels because the Turians are too damned by the book about activating unmapped relays. Apparently, Council authority extends even to species that had never heard of it, so the Turians considered themselves justified in murdering human civilians.

I'd let the Council collapse and not be rebuilt after the Reapers are dealt with. It's time that the species of the galaxy stand on their own two/four legs and see where the cards fall.

[Aigyl]

I have to agree with much of the OP, the Council is not exactly the most benevolent force in the galaxy.

However, it does achieve the critical goal of striking a power balance between the most powerful races. No race is strong enough to move against the other races united. It protects the 'lesser' species from the conquest of more aggressive powerful races. A good example of this is the Council stepping in to protect humans on First Contact when the turians were gearing for full-on war.

But yes, a lot of their policies are preeety bad.

[CroGamer002]

I want to abolish Council( Alliance and Cerberus) in ME3!

[Pro_Consul]

SandTrout wrote...

It's time that the species of the galaxy stand on their own two/four legs and see where the cards fall.

I can already hear the Hanar whining about this one: "This one insists that the human cease discriminating against sentient beings which lack leg appendages."

Anyway, I think (and hope) we will have a hard time finding many vocal Council fanboys. But I'll go ahead and go on the record as saying the Council is incredibly lame. They are at varying times cowardly, belligerent, morally reprehensible, prudish... and they are at all times entirely too poorly dressed to be taken seriously.

What I don't get is why the Alliance doesn't use the Council's own rulings against them. They refuse to help defend human colonies in the Traverse from Geth (heretic) or Batarian attacks on the basis that these colonies are outside the current bounds of Citadel space and thus their defense is not the Council's business. So why doesn't the Alliance just take more proactive measures themselves, like say sweeping the Batarians out of space completely and putting an orbital watch on their homeworld to keep them planetbound until they foreswear the taking or keeping of non-Batarian slaves. If the Council objects, merely point out that they themselves had ruled the area outside the bounds of Citadel space, so therefore its none of their frelling business.

Or if the old-school councilors want to exclude the human councilor from access to the space tracking network, simply retaliate by excluding the three non-human councilors from C-Sec data, since humans have been placed in charge of C-Sec. "Oh, honored Turian councilor, you requested vital data from C-Sec and were refused? Shocking! I'm so sorry to hear that. Truly I am. I will be glad to speak most sternly to the C-Sec officer in charge at my first opportunity. But first I need to handle this oh so urgent problem concerning fleet dispositions. I could handle it in a trice if I had access to the space tracking network, but alas I do not so I fear it may take me some time. Shall I call you next week about that data you needed?"

[Wulfram]

The council's actions during the First Contact war are highly commendable. Despite the Turians being the most militarily powerful of their members, the council stepped in and not only stopped them from avenging a military embarassment but made them pay reparations too. Whether this was because of a sense of justice, or a more pragmatic realisation of humanities potential, it is certainly to their credit.



Most complaints about them seem to be based on a confusion about their role. They do not exist to replace the governments of the various member species, only to deal with matters which concern them all. They are the UN security council, not the US federal government.



There are certainly complaints which can be made about them, but they're better than you'd expect really. They're incredibly accomodating of humanity, despite their arrogance and endless whining.

[Dean_the_Young]

You forgot about how it's a de-facto racial caste system. The accident of your birth definites your political affilitation, and your social/job opportunities, for the rest of your life.



It's also an exclusionary influence racket that has only expanded by the crawl of how much it needs to in order to retain its own power: power, and not long history or good behavior, are the only qualifications for membership.



Council policy uses genocide as an active tool of maintaining the Council's primacy, not simply in past actions but actively enforcing genocidal measures in the present.

[General User]

Genocide AND murder. Not only is the Council willing to kill foreign nationals in job lots, but they use the Spectres to kill any person who threatens to even embarrass the Council.

[Wulfram]

Remember that membership is voluntary.

[Dean_the_Young]

What was the CDN story that introduced Tela Vasir?

Some Volus leaked galactic economic data that the Council wasn't so proud of, and so they deployed a Spectre and came up with a body count?

Wikileaks wouldn't survive in the Council environment.


Edit:

Feb, 2165

The Council was covering up economic data so that it could paint a rosier economic picture.

When a group called TruthHax released the real data and embarassed the Council, Vasir was sent in. Six arrested, four dead.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Remember that membership is voluntary.

Which is like saying joining a water control empire is voluntary.

They control the water, ie the things you do need.


Mebership being better than not being a member doesn't in the least mean the Council is good. Shepard voluntarily worked with Cerberus, after all.

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Titles like 'Is the Council really good?' and 'Is TIM really evil?' make me facepalm. No, Council isn't, and no, TIM isn't, and I don't like dealing in absolutes. It's pretty clear that both sides have their ups and downs, positive and negative sides, and choosing one or the other is a matter of personal preference (or vocation, if you're feeling dramatic), just like choosing paragon or renegade style.

[Jagri]

Council isn't a shining example of a galactic UN or community but it has done alot to ensure the relative peace and stability of the galaxy. That and under their leadership only two galactic wars had broken out in a period of over two thousand years. The Rachni however in game dialog seemed to have been under the effect of indoctrination. Nothing the Council could do would make peace with a mind twisted by the Reapers.

Krogan are a tragic tale but they did start the conflict and took measures that could be consider war crimes against the Council and its allies. Having three planets rendered inhabitable and its populations destroyed likely had thrown the Council in a panic and the Turians in a rage. I hate to support the use of the Genophage but it may have been the only thing that stopped the Turians from driving the Krogan to extinction.

Oh well I wouldn't want to see the Council completely destroyed but I do believe some reform is needed and that some major policies are reviewed.

Modifié par Jagri, 07 février 2011 - 03:36 .

[philiposophy]

That's an interesting and well composed post, Arijharn. It gives a lot to think about.

[Slayer299]

The Council is made up of politicians and like politicians throughout mankind's history, they have by large done what is best for them and their respective races. With that said, they've also managed to keep a relative amount of peace and stability in the galaxy even with more than a few of their more questionable decisions.



The Council aren't goodygoody, but overall I'd rather have them than not.

[Null_]

The council is good if you are Asari/Salarian/Turian. Otherwise you can forget about getting help.... but dont forget to pay the taxes

[Wulfram]

Null_ wrote...

The council is good if you are Asari/Salarian/Turian. Otherwise you can forget about getting help.... but dont forget to pay the taxes

Humans have been treated great by the Council.  Hell, humanity would have probably been conquered by the Turians without council intervention.

The Elcor and Volus are doing fine too.

[renegadeinterrupt]

While this doesn't fall into a moral debate, I have trouble taking the council seriously when they do not even have names. It really bothers me that the lowly quarian punting used goods in the omega markets is a named character and yet the supposed leaders of the entire civilised galaxy are simply referred to as Turian, asari or salarian councilor. One of the laziest writing aspects if the 2 games so far.

[Chuvvy]

Anarchy is a cute concept for your angsty teen but **** in practice. The council (like all governments) is necessary to maintain balance. If you want a real representation of anarchy check out Afghanistan or half of Africa.

Modifié par Slidell505, 07 février 2011 - 04:21 .

[Xilizhra]

1. AI research is Illegal

Unregulated AI research is illegal. That's... a huge difference.

2. 'Old Boys' club(paragon only)

There is still, despite the Alliance's ascendence into the ranks of the Citadel Council, a power clique against Humanity. This is demonstrated during the events of ME2 where Councillor Anderson requests 'increased access to the Council's space tracking network.' Why doesn't the Alliance, already a member of the Council, have this?

I've never seen this, so can't really reply.

3. The Quarian/Geth conflict

Galactic war is the number one fear/hatred of the Council. Not at all surprising, given the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions. Presumably they thought that the geth might attack the rest of Citadel space if the Council intervened (which, to be fair, seems likely). It's quite possible that, cold though it might have been, they made the right call to avoid further losses. It was 300 years ago, we can't know.

Presumably; the scientists responsible for working on the Genophage (whether it was 'justified' or not is actually irrelevant) did not suffer censure. The most amazing thing about it though is that the Citadel Council implicitly or explicitly sanctioned the deployment of the Genophage 2.0 despite it's illegality.

It was a refinement of an existing technology and not deployment of a new technology, thus not technically illegal.

5. Spectres

The Spectre's themselves can not be considered a force of good if they are tasked with vast descretionary powers. Each Spectre is a judge, jury and executioner (queue mental images of Judge Dredd) and typically 'answer' to the Council. However, if what Tela Vasir says is true, the problem is that the Council frequently doesn't ask the 'questions' in the first place. They aren't accountable because the Council doesn't generally hold them to account.

Though the Council was asking plenty of questions of Shepard in ME1, I'll agree that Spectres may have too much power. I can't say that I know of a true solution, though.

6. Ekuna

The Quarian's may have erred somewhat in not 'deigning' to immediately notify the Council of their intent to settle the world prior to settling it, but the Council a) Failed to show compassion to one of their associate species (or former associate species) that are fleeing the catastrophe that was the homeworld (even if it was one of their own making) Forced an eviction by threatening planetary bombardment and c) Awarded it to the Elcor seemingly just to spite the Quarian's.

Settling a planet without permission strikes me as effectively a gigantic case of theft. And I can't say I fault the Council too much because no violence actually occurred.

7. The Krogan Rebellions

Ever found it odd that conveniently the Krogan Rebellions only became the Krogan Rebellions until after the Krogan attacked an Asari colony world? This is despite their actions on other associate species homeworld's (and no doubt the petitioning those species did to the Council). I'd hate to risk invoking Godwin's law this early, but to me it makes me think somewhat of Europe's appeasement to **** Germany before the war broke out (I'm guessing then that this parallel was deliberate).

It wasn't an asari colony, they had to attack multiple colonies of multiple species. That was just the last one before the Council's tipping point (they'd just gotten out of one huge war, no one wanted another one).



As for medigel, the Council allows it anyway, so... yeah.

[AdmiralCheez]

The Council, like any other political body, cannot be counted on to be "good." However, they aren't exactly evil, either. Their goal is to preserve galactic stability, not to improve the lives of its citizens nor to outright rule over them. You can expect them to do whatever they can to preserve the status quo, whether it be by sending assassins after well-intentioned saboteurs or by giving money to orphans.



In two words: Lawful Neutral.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Council is a group of a select few powers whose interests may or may not be aligned with your own.



Their interest in galactic stability is in so far that stability favors them: when stability does not favor them, they're no more inclined towards it than anyone else (see: when they aren't holding the reigns of power).



The best that can be said of the Council is that they aren't malevolent, and the worst is that they aren't benevolent. They aren't inclined to harm others on principal, but in practice they have no hesitation to harm others when it does suit them. (The Spectres, the genophage v2, and many more.)