310 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

Wulfram wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Their history of throwing other races under the bus to acheive their own goals.  If Sovereign hadn't shown up, the Turians were going to be next, with Humans getting their turn as the hired goons for the asari and turians for a while, before someone new comes along.  

There is no such history.  The Krogans attacked them.

Plus, allying with the weak Batarians and a rag tag fleet of Quarians against the 3 great powers of the galaxy doesn't seem like a very sensible plan.  If you really wanted to bring the council down, you'd need to split it and get at least one of the major powers on your side.

Nope I kept the Collector base!

Modifié par James2912, 07 février 2011 - 11:50 .

[Barquiel]

James2912 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Their history of throwing other races under the bus to acheive their own goals.  If Sovereign hadn't shown up, the Turians were going to be next, with Humans getting their turn as the hired goons for the asari and turians for a while, before someone new comes along.  

There is no such history.  The Krogans attacked them.

Plus, allying with the weak Batarians and a rag tag fleet of Quarians against the 3 great powers of the galaxy doesn't seem like a very sensible plan.  If you really wanted to bring the council down, you'd need to split it and get at least one of the major powers on your side.

Nope I kept the Collector base!

I see...well, I am sure that batarians and quarians love your Cerberus-reapers.

Modifié par Barquiel, 07 février 2011 - 11:58 .

[mopotter]

BobSmith101 wrote...

They are politicains... Can politicians ever be good ? They uphold the status quo is about the best you can say of them.

This was also my thought.   I want to think that at least one is wanting to do the right thing whatever that is, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were all selfserving not nice individuals.  
 

[DPSSOC]

I don't see the Council as bad just negligent. They force all members to sign a treaty crippling their military capabilities but offer no military support. I could understand a group like the Council not stepping in for strictly domestic issues (this would include the Geth/Quarian incident), but once two species get involved isn't it kind of their responsibility to at least attempt to act as mediators? The Council forces humanity to colonize areas like the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge that border on the Terminus systems, and then refuses to offer any assistance when Batarians and other rogue elements attack. Were it not for their treaty I'd agree with the Council that our defence is our problem but without being allowed to build up a military of any real strength (in terms of conventional warfare) there's only so much we can do at which point they should step in.

[Moiaussi]

James2912 wrote...

We are tools to them nothing more. I don't know about everybody else but I don't like the idea just being a tool for aliens.

Tools in what way? The Alliance wasn't even invited to defend the Citadel. Alliance ships were there because of the threat to human colonies.

You seem to think that borders should be thrown open wide and everything be handed to humanity.. why? What is humanity offering back? The other races have already done the tough job of clearing and policing their territories, and now you want humans to simply move into those regions where we have yet to pay our dues?

Humanity earned a place on the Council the same way the Turians did, by proving their worth. Even that doesn't mean that either race can sit back and claim entitlement.

Humanity should earn its place, not resent not being handed one.

[James2912]

We saved the galaxy they owe us EVERYTHING because they would have NOTHING without us!

[Arijharn]

Wulfram wrote...

Remember that membership is voluntary.

Not really. If someone wants to have wealth they need to open themselves up to the Council, which means signing treaties and becoming an associate. You don't hear my about Batarian's for example because they aren't a Council species (anymore). 

The Council, as well as being the 'head of state' is situated at the Citadel for a reason and that reason is because A) It's the hub of the mass relay network The influence the Citadel has, primarily because of trade reasons.

Membership implies however a bit of a "two way street" from what I can gather, this is why despite the fact that Quarian sightings on it seem to be relatively common, they are still not afforded 'associate status' if going by any sort of interactions the Quarian's have with other species. To me at least, it seems that the Quarian's 'rank' somewhere near the bottom of the rung, if they're even on the ladder.

[Terraneaux]

Moiaussi wrote...

Their history of throwing other races under the bus to acheive their own goals.  If Sovereign hadn't shown up, the Turians were going to be next, with Humans getting their turn as the hired goons for the asari and turians for a while, before someone new comes along.  

Pardon, but the Asari had ships at the battle of the Citadel, and the treaty limiting fleet strength is a balancing plan.... It is the Turians wanting more DN's to compensate for superior Asari diplomacy and Salarian espionage.

And you figure that not letting the Krogan overrun them was 'throwing the Krogan under the bus?" Stopping a bus that is set to ram your house isn't thowing the driver under it.....

You'll note that the Krogan Rebellions only required council intervention once they attacked Asari space.  Before that, all the minor Council races that were being attacked... not a problem.  Similar to how the Geth were humanity's problem until they started attacking the Citadel, when really everyone should have been crapping themselves at the thought of what the Geth were doing beyond the veil and trying to figure out what was going on.  

[Jagri]

James2912 wrote...

We saved the galaxy they owe us EVERYTHING because they would have NOTHING without us!

They saved us from the Turians so it can be said without the Council we would have been nothing but extinct in the worse case scenario. So we owe them EVERYTHING or we are even cause we save each other from mutual annilation.

Modifié par Jagri, 08 février 2011 - 03:26 .

[Xilizhra]

You'll note that the Krogan Rebellions only required council intervention once they attacked Asari space. Before that, all the minor Council races that were being attacked... not a problem. Similar to how the Geth were humanity's problem until they started attacking the Citadel, when really everyone should have been crapping themselves at the thought of what the Geth were doing beyond the veil and trying to figure out what was going on.

They'd been hitting asari space for a while before the Council stepped in. It wasn't speciesism, it was the Council not wanting to get involved in a war.

[landis963]

Let's see:
1. AI research is illegal.
This seems to be a cyclical problem, in that AIs are illegal because they, to borrow a Halo term, go rampant and berserk, while the ones that exist are prosecuted because guess what? They're illegal! and so they go rampant and berserk because of the laws trying to prevent them from existing long enough to go rampant and berserk. Just political stupidity born of knee-jerk, placatory measures. It doesn't really matter whether this happened before or after the geth attack, the results for every other AI are the same.

2. Old Boy's club:
Well yeah, they're going to look down on us, they feel that a) they're entitled and experienced and ****, and we're just the loudmouth upstarts. Of course, this doesn't help when the loudmouth upstart council member is trying to work for the benefit of sentient beings and all the rest of the Council can hear is "Hey! Listen! Let me have access to your data! Hey!"

3. The Quarian/Geth war.
I'm not sure how much time they had to respond to the problem, since it seems to be a question of "quarian higher-ups decide geth problem needs removal, try to flip the switch, and BAM! instant Geth rebellion everywhere." Mass effect wiki seems to say that it took less than a human year between the start of the war and the creation and evacuation of the Migrant Fleet. However, if it took less than a week before military evac or suppression ships arrived to buy some time or turn the tide, then shame on the council. In fact, the Council, instead of dealing with the problem and then assigning blame, blamed first and acted never. This seems to be a common theme when anyone deals with the quarians.

4. The Genophage.
This reeks of "Hey, our use of medi-gel is wildly accepted by the public, why not bend that rule again?" Again, political stupidity, not evil. However, ignoring the long-term consequences in favor of patting themselves on the back is both less justifiable and par for the course. Furthermore, Mordin says on multiple occasions that a) there are so many variables that the future is impossible to predict, and that how bad it was now, it was better than the genocide of the krogan.

5. Spectres
I'm seeing a major disconnect between how the Spectres are portrayed and our experiences as a Spectre in ME1. Sending reports after every mission does not scream "I have no oversight" and neither, frankly, does the shoestring budget and lack of free equipment. Although the need to send the reports was waived temporarily by the Council after Shep gets his Spectre status back, That was more in keeping with the "spectre in name only" status they give you in order to keep the ex-Spectre Cerberus agent that happened to save their lives placated.

6. Ekuna.
<_
7. The Krogan Rebellions.
Why would the Council react in force if they weren't being attacked? They were probably bunkering down in order to defend their colonies as every other spacefaring race was at the time, and they couldn't attack outright with Kredak still having an office on the citadel. When they had an excuse to enter the fray, they did.

8. Medi-gel
Quite honestly, it's a wonderful thing when political machinations align with common sense. It was just too good of an invention to ban without public outcry.

tl;dr: Stupid and negligent, not bad, except for their treatment of the Quarians.  But then again, what else is new?

Modifié par landis963, 08 février 2011 - 04:25 .

[SandTrout]

Regarding the Geth/Quarian war: Regardless of weather or not AI research was illegal at the time, this was the excuse used by the Council to allow the genocide of one of their associate members while at the same time allowing an AI civilization to emerge onto the galactic scene, then ignoring the potential threat for 300 years while it grew in power.

If they were really worried about AI running amok and slaughtering organics, the most practical approach to a long term strategy would be to aid the Quarians against the AI before the AI advanced beyond their own military capabilities. Only an idiot would stand idle while an emerging enemy slaughtered an ally, then let that enemy rebuild. The smart thing would have been to send the fleets to wipe out every last geth platform so that they would never be a threat to organic life.

For all their faults, though, the Council is not made up of idiots. The reason they didn't aid the Quarians is because they wanted the geth to wipe them out so that they wouldn't need to share power with the Quarians. Then, to add insult to injury, they evicted the Quarian embassy. These are the actions of a vindictive council that wanted to punish a nation that just lost somewhere in the upper 90% of their population.

Benefits recieved by the Quarians due to associating with the Citadel? Nilch. Costs incurred by the Quarians due to the Council? Getting threatened with orbital bombardment for trying to settle an uninhabited planet.

Also, membership is NOT voluntary, even if you ignore the necessity of trade agreements. The First Contact War was started because human explorers were operating in violation of Citadel edicts before we even knew the Citadel existed. That's autocratic authority at its finest.

Even my paragon Shepards are not so naive to think that the council is even so much as a force for good.

[James2912]

SandTrout wrote...

Regarding the Geth/Quarian war: Regardless of weather or not AI research was illegal at the time, this was the excuse used by the Council to allow the genocide of one of their associate members while at the same time allowing an AI civilization to emerge onto the galactic scene, then ignoring the potential threat for 300 years while it grew in power.
If they were really worried about AI running amok and slaughtering organics, the most practical approach to a long term strategy would be to aid the Quarians against the AI before the AI advanced beyond their own military capabilities. Only an idiot would stand idle while an emerging enemy slaughtered an ally, then let that enemy rebuild. The smart thing would have been to send the fleets to wipe out every last geth platform so that they would never be a threat to organic life.
For all their faults, though, the Council is not made up of idiots. The reason they didn't aid the Quarians is because they wanted the geth to wipe them out so that they wouldn't need to share power with the Quarians. Then, to add insult to injury, they evicted the Quarian embassy. These are the actions of a vindictive council that wanted to punish a nation that just lost somewhere in the upper 90% of their population.
Benefits recieved by the Quarians due to associating with the Citadel? Nilch. Costs incurred by the Quarians due to the Council? Getting threatened with orbital bombardment for trying to settle an uninhabited planet.
Also, membership is NOT voluntary, even if you ignore the necessity of trade agreements. The First Contact War was started because human explorers were operating in violation of Citadel edicts before we even knew the Citadel existed. That's autocratic authority at its finest.
Even my paragon Shepards are not so naive to think that the council is even so much as a force for good.

I must say Beautiful post! 
It perfectly describes the thought process of the Council. This is why I have no allegiance to the council in my opinion the Council should be as if not more despised than Cerberus. At least Cerberus is honest about its goals. Ciitadel Space is Citadel Space if you fall withing Citadel Space you are subject to Citadel law. All you are doing by not maintiaing an embassy on the Citadel is denying youself even the smallest influence in helping form the laws you will  be forced to live by.

Modifié par James2912, 08 février 2011 - 06:31 .

[aeetos21]

The only thing the Council or the Alliance (for that matter) have over Cerberus is that it isn't just one guy in charge. Other than that I'd say all three have plenty of blood on their hands and have all shown that they are willing to impede Shepard's success. Better off going solo in ME3.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

They'd been hitting asari space for a while before the Council stepped in. It wasn't speciesism, it was the Council not wanting to get involved in a war.

So, what would be the benefit then of each species agreeing to the laws made by the Council if the Council doesn't do anything? What point is there for the Turian's to have a 'peacekeeping fleet'?

This is what the wikia has to say (and the Mass Effect wiki is actually pretty accurate)

src: @http://masseffect.wi...ogan_Rebellions#Unchecked_Expansion
The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory from other Citadel races. The krogan became more aggressive as other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterward.

Seems pretty specific to me in all honesty. I suppose it could be said though that to get to Lusia they had to move through Asari space, but regardless... they only acted until after Lusia was attacked and the Citadel demanded that the Krogan leave.

Do you have any idea what this implies? It's like if North Korea annexed South Korea, Laos, Hong Kong, Thailand & Japan and all the while  those countries presumably petitioned the United Nations in this case, and yet the United Nations only started to actively combat the NKA until after Alaska was annexed.

Sorry, Xilizhra, but you're stone cold wrong here. It is 'speciesm' because they only escalated the 'diplomacy' until after Lusia fell. They didn't do it beforehand despite the fact that the Krogan attacked worlds that the Council presumably to have already granted to other species beforehand (and thus hold the 'deed.') Remember; the Council apparently has the legislative power to award individual species the right to colonise planets (including the legal right to force evict those who don't have the right to them), and this is seen many times during the course of the game (two examples being Berkenstein & Ekuna).

In other words; why did the Krogan Rebellions only warrant a 'diplomatic crisis' until after Lusia fell?

EDIT: One of these days I really need to proof-read what I post before I press that shiny submit button.

Modifié par Arijharn, 08 février 2011 - 06:37 .

[Moiaussi]

I really wish people would quit commenting on the Morning War as if all the facts are known. We don't know the status of the Quarians at the time the request was made, we don't know the Council's state of readiness or fleet strengths.



We simply don't know enough to judge.as clearly as critics of the Council seem to pretend we do.



There was 300 years of peace afterwards, and even if the Council had intervened, then if they reached a negotiated peace there would still have been the possibility of the Citadel war.



Meanwhile noone even seems to consider the possibility that the Geth might have won.



Consider, Sovereign did next to nothing in the Citadel war other than isolate the fleets temporarily. The Geth presence represented 5% of their navy, and that is assuming an equal representation. We don't know if the Heretics left only with armed transports or with any actual fleet elements.



That 5% did massive damage to the main Council fleet, despite the intervention of the Alliance (who also took significant casualties).



It seems unlikely that only 5% of the combined Council and Alliance forces were at that battle.



Going to war does not equal winning.

[Moiaussi]

Jagri wrote...

James2912 wrote...

We saved the galaxy they owe us EVERYTHING because they would have NOTHING without us!

They saved us from the Turians so it can be said without the Council we would have been nothing but extinct in the worse case scenario. So we owe them EVERYTHING or we are even cause we save each other from mutual annilation.

Also we weren't at the Citadel just for the Council. The Geth were attacking human colonies, remember? And the Reapers were not going to just take out the Council races and leave the galaxy to humanity.

Noone should be pretending we did it all for them or should be rewarded as if we did.

[Ieldra]

Pretty good points all around. No need to add anything specific.



The Council are politicians. They look after their own interests, and will use any ally and betray any ally if they see enough benefit and think they can get away with it. Just like any other superpower ever in humanity's history. It's how things work, and it's likely impossible to change that on a permanent basis, given human (and alien) nature. However, we can all them out on it in specific instances and try to makes things a bit better. Likely it won't last - whoever is in charge will act like that or they won't be in charge much longer - but I'd it's still worth it. So even if I'm a cynic, I'll hit them over the head with a sledgehammer for what they did to the quarians if I get the chance.

[James2912]

Moiaussi wrote...

Jagri wrote...

James2912 wrote...

We saved the galaxy they owe us EVERYTHING because they would have NOTHING without us!

They saved us from the Turians so it can be said without the Council we would have been nothing but extinct in the worse case scenario. So we owe them EVERYTHING or we are even cause we save each other from mutual annilation.

Also we weren't at the Citadel just for the Council. The Geth were attacking human colonies, remember? And the Reapers were not going to just take out the Council races and leave the galaxy to humanity.

Noone should be pretending we did it all for them or should be rewarded as if we did.

Wait jagri you basically are argueing that we should be happy that the Council saved us from themselves oh yeah I feel real thankful. The Turian warmongers can shove  their mercy where the sun don't shine. The fact still remains that the galaxy would be a reaper wasteland if it werent for humanity. The Council is filled with incompetents who are going to get billions of people killed. If the Turians can develop a Tthanix cannon from Reaper tech their is no reason they couldn't clearly see how much more technically advanced Sovereign was than the Geth. At the very least they should have launched a high priority investigation into how such tech could have fallen into Geth hands. Instead they stick their heads into the sand. ME3 is going to be a blood batch because of those selfish fools.

[aeetos21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pretty good points all around. No need to add anything specific.

The Council are politicians. They look after their own interests, and will use any ally and betray any ally if they see enough benefit and think they can get away with it. Just like any other superpower ever in humanity's history. It's how things work, and it's likely impossible to change that on a permanent basis, given human (and alien) nature. However, we can all them out on it in specific instances and try to makes things a bit better. Likely it won't last - whoever is in charge will act like that or they won't be in charge much longer - but I'd it's still worth it. So even if I'm a cynic, I'll hit them over the head with a sledgehammer for what they did to the quarians if I get the chance.

QFT

[Schneidend]

Xilizhra wrote...

An asari response? Sure. A human response? I very much doubt it. A salarian/turian response? Iffy, but I doubt that too.

Well, the turians are culturally inclined to respond. Helping the larger group is kind of their thing.

[Commander Kurt]

Their job is to ensure galactic stability, not an easy task I assume. Is stability "good" then? Economic theory and human history seem to suggest that it is, and I agree. Stability is "good", and thus the Councils priorities are "good".

So, are they successful in working for galactic stability? I would say that they are incredibly successful. If anything, I'm suggesting that we replace the UN with a scientist, a soldier and a really old prostitute ASAP.

Yeah, they're good. They're not always morally right, but in the grand scheme of things they're definitely good.

[Weskerr]

This post makes me wonder whether or not the Council is merely a United Nations type of organization, representing global powers (or in this case, galactic powers) but having no power of its own to enforce its resolutions (completely relying on member nations to enforce them) or if the Council is a self-sustaining and individual power, having a separate agenda from the member races and being able to enforce its own laws.

Since the Council is made up of Asari, Turian, Salarian, and Human members, does it have any jurisdiction over the mentioned specie's military or government, or are they completely separate powers? Is the Council's fleet its own or is it a cooperation of member species' military and government? 

[AkiKishi]

Weskerr wrote...

This post makes me wonder whether or not the Council is merely a United Nations type of organization, representing global powers (or in this case, galactic powers) but having no power of its own to enforce its resolutions (completely relying on member nations to enforce them) or if the Council is a self-sustaining and individual power, having a separate agenda from the member races and being able to enforce its own laws.

Since the Council is made up of Asari, Turian, Salarian, and Human members, does it have any jurisdiction over the mentioned specie's military or government, or are they completely separate powers? Is the Council's fleet its own or is it a cooperation of member species' military and government? 

They do seem more like an oversight body. The Quarians have their own government and the council is not part of that. So I think your UN analogy is pretty accurate.

[Wulfram]

The council members seem to be chosen by the council, rather than being appointed representatives of their government - though they do seem to be chosen from a list nominated by their government.

The council doesn't seem to have its own fleet, instead relying on the militaries of the council races.

It does seem to have the power to over rule member species governments. One example would be stopping the First Contact War, but also this power is embodied in the Spectre's above the law status

It's role is similar to that of the UN security council, but it is definitely more powerful.