179 réponses à ce sujet

[TowranPeter]

(Before you freak out, hear me out.  This is definitely an intellectual, mature discussion since Mass Effect content in general is very mature & intellectual. And make sure you read my supporting logic statement, it will most likely counter intitial argument and saving me the time of having to repeat myself).

You're given the option to use a certain piece of 'useful data' that was acquired through means of gross scientific experiment & torture.   Much like Hitler's science camp that experimented on Jews, the scenario is very similar.  Hitler performed horrible experiments on his fellow humans and questionable, useful scientific data was produced.

In my opinion, choosing to use this data is renegade.  And choosing to destroy it is paragon. 

Shepard specifically says that the data is tainted.  I too believe it is tainted.  I'd much rather destroy the data and stay true to the belief that any scientific data acquired through the use of torture and horrid scientific means should be destroyed and thus award Paragon.  By accepting the use of the data, you're justifying future rebel organizations the means of torture and adbuction since they know full well you'll use the research.

Supporting Logic

Scientist Bob is mad & crazy, he has decided that he will experiment on human beings through an excessive means of torture to achieve a scientific result.  Bob knows that his horrid experiments will result in his own death via execution by his government, but in his sick & twisted mind he knows that his scientific data will still be used even though he will be killed.   He uses this as justification for his cause. 

Three years pass and Bob has produced a huge amount of beneficial scientific data for humanity, but 182 babies were tortured and burned alive,  812 males were brutally tortured and 189 women were raped repeatedly over & over again.  But the scientific data acquired through such horrid means is 'valuable'. 

Choosing to keep it is renegade.

Choosing to destroy it is paragon.

By destroying the data you send a clear message to anyone corrupt that torture and horrid experimentation on sapient species is not tolerated IN ANYWAY.  Bioware seems to think it is justified, kind of sad that their writers are corrupt in this way.

The game is trying to force me to believe that torture and gross scientific experiment are 'paragon'.  This post was made to send a clear message to Bioware that it IS NOT PARAGON.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 01:53 .

[Collider]

Unfortunately, paragon and renegade is not completely consistent.
I assume in the case you are describing, it is renegade because of an assumption that Sheaprd takes a certain stance on the issue the experiments were conducting for. That a certain alien race should not be given another chance or something to that effect.

Modifié par Collider, 07 février 2011 - 09:58 .

[Ryzaki]

...And there's also the issue that there's a renegade persuade for the body choice.

[TowranPeter]

Collider wrote...

Unfortunately, paragon and renegade is not completely consistent.
I assume in the case you are describing, it is renegade because of an assumption that Sheaprd takes a certain stance on the issue the experiments were conducting for. That a certain alien race should not be given another chance or something to that effect.

All races should be given a second chance, but if that involves torture then it is a renegade path, to rebel against the torture to acquire a means is paragon.

The argument in it's most basic form is:

* Should 1 human suffer a lifetime of torture & brutality to benefit 5 billion humans?

Then the follow up question is:

* What if it was you that had to be tortured?

/Paragon/Renegade choice.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 10:06 .

[Chewin]

Probably the developers thought that keeping the data would show that how far people will go to achive their goals and people will wake up and do something about it. I dunno, it sounds stupid, but I really think that the developers had something to do about this

[Captain_Obvious_au]

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.

However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

[Chewin]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.
However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

Exactly

[TowranPeter]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.
However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

You didn't read my supporting logic. I pre-countered this anticipated argument.  But I'll shorten it for you.

By using the data, you give a green light to every corrupt scientist that torture & horrid scientific experiments on a sapien species is paragon as long as it benefits the majority.  But I'm here to remind you it is NOT paragon, it is renegade. 

... You said 'repeated'. If it is repeated, then the scientist is executed at the hands of his government for conducting gross scientific experiements & torture.  Eventually word spreads that if you conduct means of torture to achieve a scientific result, you will be killed and your data destroyed.  It sends a clear message to the population that torture is not condoned in ANYWAY. Get it?  Thus, discouraging such horrible & despicable acts.  But if you USE the data, then you condone the action as acceptable.

Now I remind you.  I'm not here to JUDGE your decision. I'm simply stating what is paragon and what is renegade.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 10:23 .

[Aigyl]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.
However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

This.

The methods used to get the data were terrible, but refusing to use the data changes nothing. It also gives meaning to those who died in the research, like that female krogan.

[TowranPeter]

Aigyl wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.
However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

This.

The methods used to get the data were terrible, but refusing to use the data changes nothing. It also gives meaning to those who died in the research, like that female krogan.

Then you've justified the use of torture to achieve a scientific means.  This is renegade. That's all I'm saying.  When word gets out that valuable scientific data acquired through means of torture is "still used", then every scientist will continue to do it.   All I'm saying is it's renegade because you're encouraging other scientists to do the same thing.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 10:21 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Riiiiight, because there are billions of mad, evil scientists out there, just waiting for their chance to commit suicide in the name of science.

Firstly, you can't teach madman much. They are sick and driven, and would therefore commit these crimes no matter what you do with their ilk. The rape proves that your scientist Bob was not a pragmatic man, who sacrificed his life (and others) for the greater good. Meh.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

TowranPeter wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.
However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

You didn't read my supporting logic. I pre-countered this anticipated argument.  But I'll shorten it for you.

By using the data, you give a green light to every corrupt scientist that torture & horrid scientific experiments on a sapien species is paragon as long as it benefits the majority.  But I'm here to remind you it is NOT paragon, it is renegade. 

... You said 'repeated'. If it is repeated, then the scientist dies.  Eventually word spreads that if you conduct means of torture to achieve a scientific result, you will be killed and your data destroyed.  It sends a clear message to the population that torture is not condoned in ANYWAY. Get it? 

Now I remind you.  I'm not here to JUDGE your decision. I'm simply stating what is paragon and what is renegade.

Well I can definately see where you're coming from, but I disagree. Yes it does send the signal that renegade research is okay if it produces good results. All you need to do though is, if you find such research, is imprison the perpetrators. That sends the message that it's not okay. Your research will be used, but you'll be in prison for the rest of your life.

By doing this you're following the rule of law, whilst making peoples lives better. That makes it paragon to me.

[TowranPeter]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

TowranPeter wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.
However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

You didn't read my supporting logic. I pre-countered this anticipated argument.  But I'll shorten it for you.

By using the data, you give a green light to every corrupt scientist that torture & horrid scientific experiments on a sapien species is paragon as long as it benefits the majority.  But I'm here to remind you it is NOT paragon, it is renegade. 

... You said 'repeated'. If it is repeated, then the scientist dies.  Eventually word spreads that if you conduct means of torture to achieve a scientific result, you will be killed and your data destroyed.  It sends a clear message to the population that torture is not condoned in ANYWAY. Get it? 

Now I remind you.  I'm not here to JUDGE your decision. I'm simply stating what is paragon and what is renegade.

Well I can definately see where you're coming from, but I disagree. Yes it does send the signal that renegade research is okay if it produces good results. All you need to do though is, if you find such research, is imprison the perpetrators. That sends the message that it's not okay. Your research will be used, but you'll be in prison for the rest of your life.

By doing this you're following the rule of law, whilst making peoples lives better. That makes it paragon to me.

Like I said, if you carefully read my supporting logic, you've just justified the use of torture to achieve scientific results and the only consequence is life in prison.  There are sick scientists out there who would gladly take life in prison if they "think" they are helping humanity.

Then the question is, what if the person tortured was you?  The paragon route protects you from torture, but the renegade route ensures you're vulernable to such chaotic violence.

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just trying to declare what is paragon and what is renegade. I read all your text.

Paragon & Renegade is about how you treat yourself first, followed by how you treat others.  You don't want to be tortured, therefore others probably don't want to be tortured as well.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 10:31 .

[aeetos21]

You're conveniently overlooking that both Mordin and Shepard condemned what had happened. BW even made it a point to go the extra mile and make sure that you the player know Mordin never did work like this. You could even choose to kill the scientist responsible for all this, though they also made sure that he wouldn't be able to continue his experiments should he live.

The research goal however wasn't renegade or evil, it is for a good cause and may one day become useful should [NAME REDACTED] becomes successful in rallying his people to more cooperative way of life with other races in the galaxy. This clearly wasn't the case for [NAME REDACTED] whom the scientist was working for.

You mentioned WW2 and the experiments **** scientists performed. Overlooking that many of those same scientist's research was used to help give us many things we still use today (re: Operation Paperclip) the US also committed a horrendous act to end the war with Japan. Hundreds of thousands were killed (though not as many in the Tokyo firebomb raids - something people also tend to overlook) but in the end it achieved what military strategists had hoped and potentially (we never really will know for certain) saved more lives than it took.

All in all I'm afraid you took an incredibly complicated issue and grossly oversimplified it. They were very clear that Mordin could continue the research through means not nearly as horrific and still succeed. The research already done, though achieved immorally, is still solid. Would you rather those who have died die for nothing? I suppose if you support the [NAME REDACTED] then it makes sense to destroy the data - the renegade path. If you don't and want to see the [NAME REDACTED] people restored - the paragon path - then yes you would keep the data despite its "taint." Because tainted or not, in the long run it will save lives - there is no arguing that point.

Edit: Really? N a z i is censored? ****? Wow.

Edit 2: I see you made your BSN account yesterday, welcome to the forums

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 10:35 .

[Khayness]

Godwin'd right at the title.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

TowranPeter wrote...
By using the data, you give a green light to every corrupt scientist that torture & horrid scientific experiments on a sapien species is paragon as long as it benefits the majority.

That's ridiculous. Name 5 evil, mad real-life scientists wat, I dare you.

[TowranPeter]

aeetos21 wrote...

You're conveniently overlooking that both Mordin and Shepard condemned what had happened. BW even made it a point to go the extra mile and make sure that you the player know Mordin never did work like this. You could even choose to kill the scientist responsible for all this, though they also made sure that he wouldn't be able to continue his experiments should he live.

Murdering someone without putting them on trial is renegade.  ME1 has proved this.   He should of been arrested and tried for his crimes in front of his peers.  By killing him, you're hiding the fact that such a despicable act took place.  I'm not sure what country you're from because different countries have different laws, but in the USA there is a pretty decent justice system.  Innocent until proven guilty, any other path is renegade.

aeetos21 wrote...

The research goal however wasn't renegade or evil, it is for a good cause and may one day become useful should [NAME REDACTED] becomes successful in rallying his people to more cooperative way of life with other races in the galaxy. This clearly wasn't the case for [NAME REDACTED] whom the scientist was working for.

The research goal was to cure the genophage.  This is noble, but to torture & cause harm to someone else causes the goal to become a 'renegade' path, not paragon.  Imagine if it was you who was taken against your will and tortured in a scientific study.  PUT YOURSELF in that situation.  Is it renegade or paragon? I hate having to repeat myself. I stated this in my original post.  I feel like a Salarian! haha. You're justifying torture as a means of achieving a scientific result.

You mentioned WW2 and the experiments **** scientists performed. Overlooking that many of those same scientist's research was used to help give us many things we still use today (re: Operation Paperclip) the US also committed a horrendous act to end the war with Japan. Hundreds of thousands were killed (though not as many in the Tokyo firebomb raids - something people also tend to overlook) but in the end it achieved what military strategists had hoped and potentially (we never really will know for certain) saved more lives than it took.

All in all I'm afraid you took an incredibly complicated issue and grossly oversimplified it. They were very clear that Mordin could continue the research through means not nearly as horrific and still succeed. The research already done, though achieved immorally, is still solid. Would you rather those who have died die for nothing? I suppose if you support the [NAME REDACTED] then it makes sense to destroy the data - the renegade path. If you don't and want to see the [NAME REDACTED] people restored - the paragon path - then yes you would keep the data despite its "taint." Because tainted or not, in the long run it will save lives - there is no arguing that point.

You've... Just... Justified.. Torture....... This is a renegade path. You're a renegade at heart! It's ok. I'm just saying that the game got it wrong.

Saying it's ok to torture people isn't paragon, it's renegade. Giving scientists a green light to torture people isn't paragon, it's renegade.  Murdering someone in cold blood instead of putting them on trial is renegade not paragon.

You say "that person will of died for nothing".  If you use the data, then you may of temporarliy justified their death, but you've given the green light to future scientists to once again perform the same gross experiments.  Those scientists will think "Well they still used the data, so I can still conduct the experiments since they will be useful". 

By destroying the data, the person who has been tortured can be rest assured no one will be tortured again in the future because scientists will know that not only will they be executed by their government, that their data will also be destroyed and purged.  This is however assuming a paragon route was chosen.  If a renegade route is chose then the data is used which is totally fine by me.

The whole point of the post was simply to declare what is paragon and what is renegade. 

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 10:57 .

[TowranPeter]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

TowranPeter wrote...
By using the data, you give a green light to every corrupt scientist that torture & horrid scientific experiments on a sapien species is paragon as long as it benefits the majority.

That's ridiculous. Name 5 evil, mad real-life scientists wat, I dare you.

I don't know the name of the scientists who experimented on the Jews but it happened.

Anyways, you're argument is flawed. It's like saying every police officer is perfect, that every doctor is perfect, that every mechanic is perfect.  Sorry, in the real world there are corrupt scientists in addition to noble scientists.A noble/paragon scientist would never condone torture.  Only a renegade scientist would condone torture and anyone who uses the data is a renegade.  By using the data, if word gets out, other scientists will be like "oh oh, they used the data despite the use of torture, hmmmmmmm"...

[aeetos21]

TowranPeter wrote...
The research goal was to cure the genophage.  This is noble, but to torture & cause harm to someone else causes the goal to become a 'renegade' path, not paragon.  Imagine if it was you who was taken against your will and tortured in a scientific study.  PUT YOURSELF in that situation.  Is it renegade or paragon? I hate having to repeat myself. I stated this in my original post.  I feel like a Salarian! haha. You're justifying torture as a means of achieving a scientific result.

You just contradicted your entire thread, congratulations. According to your logic, its okay to do research to try and cure the genophage ( as you said a noble goal) but its not okay to use research already proven because it was attained immorally. According to your logic Its okay for thousands more krogan to die, while Mordin spends years researching to make up for the research he may or may not have deleted, but not okay for him to use research already proven because it was attained immorally.

As for questioning my patriotism?
Operation Paperclip
Enhanced Interrogation Techniques

It appears in this discussion I know more about my country than you claim to - and no I don't support either of these practices/operations. They are listed given the relevance of both the thread and United States operations.

"True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else." --- Clarence Darrow

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 11:02 .

[Lycidas]

Your comparison is faulty. Preventing sick experiments on dead soldiers =/= deleting data that resulted from sick experiments. In your first example you prevent the bad thing form happening in the 2nd case the bad thing is done and you decide what to do with the outcome.
Preventing the experiments in the first case is all you can do to honour the dead making sure the gained data is used for something good is all you can do to honour the dead in the 2nd case (other than punishing the scientist).

Modifié par Lycidas, 07 février 2011 - 11:05 .

[TowranPeter]

aeetos21 wrote...

TowranPeter wrote...
The research goal was to cure the genophage.  This is noble, but to torture & cause harm to someone else causes the goal to become a 'renegade' path, not paragon.  Imagine if it was you who was taken against your will and tortured in a scientific study.  PUT YOURSELF in that situation.  Is it renegade or paragon? I hate having to repeat myself. I stated this in my original post.  I feel like a Salarian! haha. You're justifying torture as a means of achieving a scientific result.

You just contradicted your entire thread, congratulations. According to your logic, its okay to do research to try and cure the genophage ( as you said a noble goal) but its not okay to use research already proven because it was attained immorally. According to your logic Its okay for thousands more krogan to die, while Mordin spends years researching to make up for the research he may or may not have deleted, but not okay for him to use research already proven because it was attained immorally.

As for questioning my patriotism?
Operation Paperclip
Enhanced Interrogation Techniques

It appears in this discussion I know more about my country than you claim to - and no I don't support either of these practices/operations. They are listed given the relevance of both the thread and United States operations.

I don't support them either.  Why then would you support using tainted data?

I will repeat. The research goal was to cure the genophage, but the MEANS, the MEANS of achieving this result were renegade since they involved torture.  This is a renegade path. Now I understand what you're saying, by using the tainted data you can save people sooner than later.  But what message did you send?  You sent a clear message to every scientist that it's ok to conduct torture as a means of achieving scientific results and that your data will still be used despite your execution or life in prison.   You're prolonging a problem instead of ending it right then & there. Sick scientists will think they are helping humanity and will continue to conduct horrible tortures.  This is RENEGADE.

A true paragon would not touch anything tainted by torture with a 10 foot pool.  

[TowranPeter]

Lycidas wrote...

Your comparison is faulty. Preventing sick experiments on dead soldiers =/= deleting data that resulted from sick experiments. In your first example you prevent the bad thing form happening in the 2nd case the bad thing is done and you decide what to do with the outcome.

The bad thing has been done like you said, and by using the data, you're giving the green light to future scientists that it's ok to torture and that their data will be used despite whatever happens to them.

Preventing the experiments in the first case is all you can do to honour
the dead making sure the gained data is used for something good is all
you can do to honour the dead in the 2nd case (other than punishing the
scientist).

Hmmmm, you're the third person who thinks this.

You realize that by using the data, if word spreads, other scientists will use torture as a means of scientific study. Is that paragon? Is that the message you're trying to send?

A true paragon will stop torture right then & there, destroy the data publicly and send a clear & direct threat to any scientist:

"Dear scientists, science has been used as a means of helping people and improving their lives. However if torture is used in any means to acheive a scientific result, not only will you be executed but your data completely destroyed & erased".

That will force corrupt scientists to deal with the simple fact that the person they are torturing will be for nothing since their data will most definitely be destroyed.

That is the true paragon route.  A true paragon sees the future, not just 6 months ahead of him.

The most simple way to put this.

"Don't impose your corrupt will upon others and don't allow the corruption to continue through any other means". 

By using the data, you're allowing the cycle to continue.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 11:13 .

[aeetos21]

Spoilers to end of ME2 below, reader beware.



Okay. Collector Base, keep it or leave it. Could give you a MAJOR boost in ME3 but for one, the research is clearly powered by killing humans and two, I don't trust TIM at all to use that research nobly - no matter how many lives it may end up saving. It'd be like taking a loaded gun from one criminal and giving it to another.

Maelon's research meanwhile, though attained through horrific experiments, had a noble goal and unlike TIM I trust Mordin to do the right thing with it and to continue the research in other means without loss of life. This way thousands of krogan lives are saved.

This was also how NASA got started, FYI.

There is no "paragon" solution at all to this. There's the lesser of two evils and IMO choosing to destroy the research is the greater of the two evils. As Lycidas said, the paragon route would've been to stop the experiments before they ever started. But we don't live in a perfect world where good always triumphs evil and everything is sunshine and oranges. We have to make do with what you get, which makes me wonder what other decisions you thought were renegade instead or paragon or vice versa.

You stated that in ME1 choosing to return the body was clearly the paragon route. In that case you could argue that giving Shepard's body to Cerberus was crossing the line and disrespectful to the dead.

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 11:19 .

[Lycidas]

TowranPeter wrote...
Hmmmm, you're the third person who thinks this.

You realize that by using the data, if word spreads, other scientists will use torture as a means of scientific study. Is that paragon? Is that the message you're trying to send?

By your reaoning there should be death penalty even for light crimes cause we don't want to encourage crime by signaling criminals they will get a second chance eventually.

[TowranPeter]

Lycidas wrote...

TowranPeter wrote...
Hmmmm, you're the third person who thinks this.

You realize that by using the data, if word spreads, other scientists will use torture as a means of scientific study. Is that paragon? Is that the message you're trying to send?

By your reaoning there should be death penalty even for light crimes cause we don't want to encourage crime by signaling criminals they will get a second chance eventually.

Shepard said it best in ME1:

"not if we lose our humanity in the process".

By using tainted data acquired through means of torture, you've lost your humanity.

By performing gross experiments on the dead, without their previous consent and withholding the body from loved ones, you've lost your humanity.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 11:25 .