179 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Ryzaki wrote...

...And there's also the issue that there's a renegade persuade for the body choice.

And a paragon persuade to get the loved one to agree to the alliance keeping the body.

[aeetos21]

TowranPeter wrote...

The bad thing has been done like you said, and by using the data, you're giving the green light to future scientists that it's ok to torture and that their data will be used despite whatever happens to them.

Not true, it was stated that STG would clean up Maelon's mess and ensure no one would continue his work regardless if you keep the data or not.

You realize that by using the data, if word spreads, other scientists will use torture as a means of scientific study. Is that paragon? Is that the message you're trying to send?

See above.

A true paragon will stop torture right then & there, destroy the data publicly and send a clear & direct threat to any scientist:

"Dear scientists, science has been used as a means of helping people and improving their lives. However if torture is used in any means to acheive a scientific result, not only will you be executed but your data completely destroyed & erased".

See above.

That will force corrupt scientists to deal with the simple fact that the person they are torturing will be for nothing since their data will most definitely be destroyed.

Not necessarily, there will always be evil in the world. Like weeding a garden, just because you kill the weeds that doesn't mean others won't pop up.

That is the true paragon route.  A true paragon sees the future, not just 6 months ahead of him.

Maybe, but it will also get a lot more krogan dead and applying this logic to other cases in ME2 will likely end up getting Shepard killed as well.

The most simple way to put this.

"Don't impose your corrupt will upon others and don't allow the corruption to continue through any other means".

By using the data, you're allowing the cycle to continue.

Sorry but no. The corruption was the torture, the only way the data is corrupted is if curing the genophage is immoral - something you stated clearly is not. If we follow this logic then it was the renegade route to sacrifice the scientist team on the dead reaper to die so that we could get the reaper iff. Or it might be the renegade route if Shepard doesn't immediately go after his crew even if he's a few hands short of being fully ready and may not be able to complete the suicide mission. You may even argue recruiting Jack for your mission is renegade since how she was created was clearly in the wrong.

In short the reapers aren't going to play by the rules and if you want to beat them then neither can you - you wouldn't have been able to beat ME2 following your line of logic.

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 11:35 .

[Bogsnot1]

Like it or not, medical science leaped at least 50 years ahead thanks to the brutal and inhumane xperiments conducted by the Third Reich. Whats done is done, and to ignore the proven, beneficial results simply because you dont like how it was obtained is the most ludicrous proposal that could be put forward.

Here are some modern day examples of such behaviour from, you guessed it, the Paragons of Freedom and Justice, the USA.

http://www.naturalnews.com/019189.html (Part 1)

http://www.naturalnews.com/019187.html (Part 2)

http://www.apfn.org/.../experiment.htm



You can bet your ass that pratically every country in the world has performed similar tests of that nature. Every country that has let off a nuke has records showing that even though they were aware of the helath dangers posed by fallout, they still ordered soldiers into the fallout zone, purely to monitor the effects the radiation had upon them.



The paragon/renegade decision isnt on wether or not to use the data. Its what to do with the sick bastards who ordered the experimentation in the first place.

[TowranPeter]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Like it or not, medical science leaped at least 50 years ahead thanks to the brutal and inhumane xperiments conducted by the Third Reich. Whats done is done, and to ignore the proven, beneficial results simply because you dont like how it was obtained is the most ludicrous proposal that could be put forward.
Here are some modern day examples of such behaviour from, you guessed it, the Paragons of Freedom and Justice, the USA.
http://www.naturalnews.com/019189.html (Part 1)
http://www.naturalnews.com/019187.html (Part 2)
http://www.apfn.org/.../experiment.htm

You can bet your ass that pratically every country in the world has performed similar tests of that nature. Every country that has let off a nuke has records showing that even though they were aware of the helath dangers posed by fallout, they still ordered soldiers into the fallout zone, purely to monitor the effects the radiation had upon them.

The paragon/renegade decision isnt on wether or not to use the data. Its what to do with the sick bastards who ordered the experimentation in the first place.

You guys still miss the point.  As long as you use the data, you're giving the green light to corrupt scientists to do inhumane work knowing full well their data will be used despite any negative consequences to them.

Using the data is like saying "thanks bro! Hopefully more scientists do this behind our backs! The more data the better! WOOT!!". It's disrespectful and wrong, it's a renegade route. You're greed for knowledge and ambition blind your morality.

[Lycidas]

TowranPeter wrote...
Shepard said it best in ME1:

"not if we lose our humanity in the process".

By using tainted data acquired through means of torture, you've lost your humanity.

By performing gross experiments on the dead, without their previous consent and withholding the body from loved ones, you've lost your humanity.

Btw. Some of the test objects gave their lives voluntary. How would making their sacrifice pointles be paragon? Things are not that easy. The paragon Shepard is actually saing that using the data gained in such horrible experiments is sick but sees (after discussing it with Mordin) it is still better than throwing everything away. Like it has been said before this is not a good vs. bad decision its more between bad and bad with something good in it.

[aeetos21]

I'm curious, TP, what you think of Horizon and what a true paragon would do once Shepard found out that it was TIM who lured the collectors into attacking the colony. To me, following your line of thinking, it seems a true paragon would stop working with Cerberus all together once he learned that it was TIM who lured the collectors there.

If you keep working with him this in a sense is also giving TIM the green light to continue questionable acts such as luring the collectors to Horizon. This was proven when he manipulated Shepard into boarding the collector ship and when TIM attempted to gain control of the collector base for his own agenda.

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 11:48 .

[TowranPeter]

Wulfram wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...And there's also the issue that there's a renegade persuade for the body choice.

And a paragon persuade to get the loved one to agree to the alliance keeping the body.

Shepard specifically says "not if we lose our humanity in the process" if you choose for the body not to be experimented on. 

[Bogsnot1]

No, we dont miss the point, you do. You realise that medical science leaped approximately 50-100 years ahead based on the data recovered from the 3rd Reich scientists?
Your arguement is along the lines of;
Criminals now use guns, and have killed some cops. Instead of using the knowledge gained, and equipping all cops now with bullet-proof vests, you deem that the knowledge was gained using illegal methods (murder of a police officer) so therefore, no officer is allowed to wear a bullet proof vest. Any officer who does wear a BP vest (purchased with their own money because it would be illegal/immoral for the state to provide them), is disrespecting the dead officers.

Edit: You are comparing apples and oranges, In ME1, you had the chance to prevent the experimentation. In ME2, the experimentation ahd already occurred. The best you could do was salvage what you could, and help ensure that any further experimentation is done so ethically, and responsibly.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 07 février 2011 - 11:51 .

[TowranPeter]

aeetos21 wrote...

I'm curious, TP, what you think of Horizon and what a true paragon would do once Shepard found out that it was TIM who lured the collectors into attacking the colony. To me, following your line of thinking, it seems a true paragon would stop working with Cerberus all together once he learned that it was TIM who lured the collectors there.

If you keep working with him this in a sense is also giving TIM the green light to continue questionable acts such as luring the collectors to Horizon. This was proven when he manipulated Shepard into boarding the collector ship and when TIM attempted to gain control of the collector base for his own agenda.

hah you're very intuitive. I HATE cerberus.  I hate the fact that I'm working for a terrorist organization.  Leaders are responsible for their subordinates. There is no excuse.  It's kind of fun that Bioware forced me to be renegade, but ultimately I dont' like it.  I wanted to ditch Cerberus and just leave with Kaidan and go back to the alliance.

Think about it.

Alliance sux without Shepard
Cerberus sux without Shepard

I'd rather help the organization elected by the people rather than a rogue group.

[TowranPeter]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

No, we dont miss the point, you do. You realise that medical science leaped approximately 50-100 years ahead based on the data recovered from the 3rd Reich scientists?
Your arguement is along the lines of;
Criminals now use guns, and have killed some cops. Instead of using the knowledge gained, and equipping all cops now with bullet-proof vests, you deem that the knowledge was gained using illegal methods (murder of a police officer) so therefore, no officer is allowed to wear a bullet proof vest. Any officer who does wear a BP vest (purchased with their own money because it would be illegal/immoral for the state to provide them), is disrespecting the dead officers.

You've just justified the use of torture.  You're a renegade, people like you are needed to make harsh choices in the world we live in.  I can't make that choice. All I think about is the person screaming in agony, their children, their loved ones, their family. You however can think beyond emotion.  

If you want to green light scientists to continue the use of torture as a means of scientific study that is your choice. I'm not judging you. I'm just saying it's RENEGADE.

If you use tainted scientific data acquired through means of torture, you're condoning the use of torture. 

A scientist will simply think, "my work will be used, let's use torture as a means of acquiring data, my work will help humanity, so what if 1000 lives are lost in the process".

You know it's wrong, but it's such a 'convenient' excuse to just use the data.  "Oh but the people, they would of died in vein".. But what about future people who will now  be tortured by corrupt scientists, and those scientists knowing full well tha their data will be used despite their harsh means?

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 12:00 .

[aeetos21]

I hate how people throw that word around, terrorism. It's become the synonym of bad guy almost when in reality its people using fear and violence to achieve their own ends - usually in enormous shock and awe types of displays. Cerberus prefers working in the shadows, does that make them any better than terrorists? No, course not. They're radicals, that's a more appropriate term I think.

Labels aside, the Alliance and the Council and Cerberus don't only suck without Shepard but they impede his progress. Personally I think in ME3 Shepard should go his own way without oversight, like a privateer.

Anyway, point is you cannot beat ME2 without making some renegade decisions. It's impossible. So then should you choose to "keep your humanity" and instead allow the collectors to continue abducting human colonies? I noticed you enjoy quotes, me too.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" --- Edmund Burke

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 12:00 .

[Bogsnot1]

Keeping the data is NOT renegade. But noone will ever convince you of it, because you are obviously set in your ways, unwilling to listen to well reasoned and logically informed arguments, simply because of your personal distaste of the subject matter.

Contrary to your initial post, this is not a mature discussion on the subject. Its you making your point, then sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalalala" until everyone else either gives up, or agrees with you.

Tell me, as per my analogy, how do you feel about cops wearing BP vests? If you agree with them, then you agree with the "renegade" choice of keeping the genophage data. If you dont, then you hate cops and want them all to die at the hands of gun-toting criminals.

[aeetos21]

^^ I would like to hear this answer too.

[TowranPeter]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Keeping the data is NOT renegade. But noone will ever convince you of it, because you are obviously set in your ways, unwilling to listen to well reasoned and logically informed arguments, simply because of your personal distaste of the subject matter.
Contrary to your initial post, this is not a mature discussion on the subject. Its you making your point, then sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalalala" until everyone else either gives up, or agrees with you.

Bogsnot: "I'm publicly announcing that we will be using this tainted data despite it's origins of torture".

*10 years later*

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "Remember 10 years ago when Bogsnot still used the data despite using torture as a means of acquiring scientific data?"

Corrupt Scientis Ted: "Yup, it's people like him that allow us to indireclty do our work. We'll be helping humanity. Even if we get caught they'll still use the data.  We'll still be helping humanity, that is what you have to tell yourself".

*Ted & Larry begin torturing a thirteen year old girl*.

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "It's for humanity, they will probably execute us for this".

Corrupt Scientist Ted: "Doesn't matter, people like Bogsnot will use the data none the less. Scientists like us will always be around as long as they keep using the tainted data".

*Thirten year old girl screams, then dies*

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "Results?"

Corrupt Scientist Ted: "She's a hero in my eyes, I just wished she didn't have to scream so loud, let's submit this data anonymously and leave this country".

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "I wonder if we could just submit it anonymosly to Bogsnot? I mean he did use this type of data 10 years ago".

Corrupt Scientist Ted: "good idea, but make sure the message is encrypted".

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 12:12 .

[k-mysta]

so would i

[aeetos21]

I don't recall Mordin or Shepard or the STG making any public announcement in ME2, they made sure to keep things quiet because creating a cure for the genophage is still controversial in the galaxy.

[Bogsnot1]

aeetos21 wrote...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" --- Edmund Burke

The true evil here, is the genophage itself. By destroying the data, you are doing nothing about it. Congratulations, evil wins. How you feel good about yourself, Mr Paragon.

Edit: And still, you avoid answering my analogy. Answer it logically, and I may concede the argument to you.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 07 février 2011 - 12:13 .

[TowranPeter]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" --- Edmund Burke

The true evil here, is the genophage itself. By destroying the data, you are doing nothing about it. Congratulations, evil wins. How you feel good about yourself, Mr Paragon.

Bogsnot: "I'm publicly announcing that we will be using this tainted data despite it's origins of torture".

*10 years later*

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "Remember 10 years ago when Bogsnot still used the data despite using torture as a means of acquiring scientific data?"

Corrupt Scientis Ted: "Yup, it's people like him that allow us to indireclty do our work. We'll be helping humanity. Even if we get caught they'll still use the data.  We'll still be helping humanity, that is what you have to tell yourself".

*Ted & Larry begin torturing a thirteen year old girl*.

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "It's for humanity, they will probably execute us for this".

Corrupt Scientist Ted: "Doesn't matter, people like Bogsnot will use the data none the less. Scientists like us will always be around as long as they keep using the tainted data".

*Thirten year old girl screams, then dies*

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "Results?"

Corrupt Scientist Ted: "She's a hero in my eyes, I just wished she didn't have to scream so loud, let's submit this data anonymously and leave this country".

Corrupt Scientist Larry: "I wonder if we could just submit it anonymosly to Bogsnot? I mean he did use this type of data 10 years ago".

Corrupt Scientist Ted: "good idea, but make sure the message is encrypted".

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 12:15 .

[TowranPeter]

aeetos21 wrote...

I don't recall Mordin or Shepard or the STG making any public announcement in ME2, they made sure to keep things quiet because creating a cure for the genophage is still controversial in the galaxy.

Shadow broker, need I say more? Information like this always leaks out in game and in real life.

[aeetos21]

I think he answered your question, Bog. That he wouldn't be willing to give police officers bullet proof vests.

Edit: The SB? Why would he be interested in curing the genophage? And two, Mordin wiped the local copy. The only one remaining was the one Mordin took with him. SB is a bad guy, I don't think destroying all the research data would keep him from torturing people - Ferrun?

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 12:18 .

[Bogsnot1]

TP: "Lets destroy the data"



10 years later, Krogan become extinct as a result of unseen evolutionary changes in the genophage, rendering all adults fully sterile, and adding a HIV style component to their DNA.



Now who's paragon?

[Bogsnot1]

@aeetos: Thats what I thought. Thinking with emotions allows you to be backed into corners. Thinking with logic, tempered with emotion, allows you to climbs the walls and get out of the situation.

[Urazz]

TowranPeter wrote...

Aigyl wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

But here's the thing - yes, the way of gaining the knowledge should have been different, the barbarism should have never taken place.
However by destroying the data, all you're doing is making sure that it's repeated somewhere else, or you punish innocent people by not making the data available to improve their lives.

This.

The methods used to get the data were terrible, but refusing to use the data changes nothing. It also gives meaning to those who died in the research, like that female krogan.

Then you've justified the use of torture to achieve a scientific means.  This is renegade. That's all I'm saying.  When word gets out that valuable scientific data acquired through means of torture is "still used", then every scientist will continue to do it.   All I'm saying is it's renegade because you're encouraging other scientists to do the same thing.

Not if it's still illegal and those that pursue that kind of research get punished.  Even if you did delete the data it still wouldn't stop those that do those kind of experiments.  Also, do you really think the way that knowledge was acquired would end up public for those scientists to get?

Modifié par Urazz, 07 février 2011 - 12:30 .

[Ieldra]

@TowranPeter

What you're saying is that that supposed "taint" of the research should determine the ethics of your decision of what to do with it absolutely, disregarding any other considerations.



Things aren't as simple as that. If you think the state of things the research was meant to make better is evil, then the evil of the "tainted" research data has to be weighed against it. And in one case, the experiments are already done, you're not adding to the suffering by using the data. In the other, you prolong the suffering of a whole species. So, are you setting a bad example by keeping the data, encouraging future researchers to walk the same path, or are you setting a bad example by destroying it, prolonging the suffering of a species without an overwhelming necessity?



But again, Paragon is not good and Renegade is not evil. The decision to destroy the data is Renegade because by doing so, you support the (consequentialist) stance that is sometimes necessary to do evil things (like creating the [spoiler removed] in the first place) for the greater good (peace in the galaxy). The decision to keep the data is Paragon because by doing so, you support the (deontological) stance that an evil should not be allowed to continue, regardless of the possibly bad consequences. Regarding the methods used to obtain the data, the game is takes a position here: that these methods weigh less than the research data and their purpose. You may disgree with that, but the reasoning is sound.

[TowranPeter]

Criminals now use guns, and have killed some cops. Instead of using the knowledge gained, and equipping all cops now with bullet-proof vests, you deem that the knowledge was gained using illegal methods (murder of a police officer) so therefore, no officer is allowed to wear a bullet proof vest. Any officer who does wear a BP vest (purchased with their own money because it would be illegal/immoral for the state to provide them), is disrespecting the dead officers.

That's easy.

Paragon: Give the officers body armor.
Renegade: Refuse the officers body armor.

....but has nothing to do with my topic. Read my OP carefully.

Tainted Data

Paragon: Destroy the data, set an example. Tainted data acquired from means of torture will be destroyed. Why? To protect people from being tortured an abucted. Once scientists realize their work won't be used, they won't do it.  But if you continue to use the tainted data everytime the crime is commited, then you accept and condone their work indirectly like a hypocrite. 

Renegade: Oh look, free data, might as well! Hopefully more shows up in the future.  Hey, I didn't commit those crimes, but this data sure is useful! SWEET!  So what people find out in fifty years, no skin off my back.  That will just pave the way for more renegade scientists to do this work so people like me can USE THE DATA! SWEET!

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 12:58 .