179 réponses à ce sujet

[TowranPeter]

Not if it's still illegal and those that pursue that kind of research get punished.  Even if you did delete the data it still wouldn't stop those that do those kind of experiments.  Also, do you really think the way that knowledge was acquired would end up public for those scientists to get?

There are some scientists out there who don't give a **** about themselves, but in their sick heads they want to contribute something to humanity even if it's at the expense of a few lives.  That is wrong.

Let's put it this way. Imagine you have kids and your kids are abducted, experimented on and tortured.  For years it's been known your government uses "tainted data" because they think "well we can't let them die in vein".  That just lets the cycle continue in full force.

Everyone is vulnerable to something horrible, we must stand against it because it could be YOU who gets abducted and experimented on against your will. You have to make a stand and making a stand takes a tremendous sacrifice. That is a true paragon.

It's hard to be on the side of good, it's easier to slip into darkness and mingle with evil. A true paragon won't touch tainted data with a ten foot pole.  You do things right or you don't do them at all.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 01:06 .

[Eduadinho]

Here is a scenario for you OP. A criminal organization is for some reason making a cure for aids or cancer. they are doing experiments on innocent people which makes the sick bastards. They have almost perfected the cure when they are all raided and taken to prison, executed and what not. Would you suggest that all of the progress made for the cure should be thrown away or kept. Surely that the best outcome as that the information is put to use to make sure their deaths were not in vain. They are honouring the dead in my books.Throwing away the data is a far worse outcome.
Or another example the body armour situation again. another criminal organization is using people to test the durability of  a new body armour. they get shut down and the police confiscate the not quite completed body armour. do they destroy it or do they use it so that more deaths can be prevented.
Shepard and Mordin are making the most of a terrible situation. I don't think Shepard and Mordin shutting down one mad scientists research is going to convince many people of doing what they were already doing. 

Modifié par Eduadinho, 07 février 2011 - 01:17 .

[TowranPeter]

Eduadinho wrote...

Here is a scenario for you OP. A criminal organization is for some reason making a cure for aids or cancer. they are doing experiments on innocent people which makes the sick bastards. They have almost perfected the cure when they are all raided and taken to prison, executed and what not. Would you suggest that all of the progress made for the cure should be thrown away or kept. Surely that the best outcome as that the information is put to use to make sure their deaths were not in vain. They are honouring the dead in my books.Throwing away the data is a far worse outcome.
Shepard and Mordin are making the most of a terrible situation.

By using the data, you're just setting yourself up for another criminal organization to do the same thing for the next disease. Are you ready for that?  You're indirectly supporting this barbarism, dont' you see? You have to take a stand against it. That is a true paragon.

The cure on Virmire was destroyed and for all the right reasons. This is very similar.

If it were up to me, I'd destroy the data publicly for the entire world to see, to send a clear message.   The cycle has to stop.  No cure is worth torturing and abducting people against their will.

However, if someone voluntarily comes forth to be experimented on and a race is in dire need of a cure or they face extinction, then so be it.  As long as it's voluntary.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 01:15 .

[aeetos21]

TP, all your examples are talking about taking revenge - not paragon.

"That act is so hideous, who cares if some good might come of it. I'm going to destroy everything related to it because it makes me feel good. Meanwhile I'll tell others that I'm doing it because its "tainted" or something."

Your serving your own self-interests, not what is better for the greater whole. And your argument about setting examples has no bearing here whatsoever. People will do what they want to do, regardless if Shepard chooses to destroy the data or keep it. As I said, the only one with the copy is Mordin and there's no way he is planning on publishing his findings anytime soon.

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 01:18 .

[TowranPeter]

aeetos21 wrote...

TP, all your examples are talking about taking revenge - not paragon.

"That act is so hideous, who cares if some good might come of it. I'm going to destroy everything related to it because it makes me feel good. Meanwhile I'll tell others that I'm doing it because its "tainted" or something."

"If you abduct humans and torture them against their will for scientific study, beware that you will be executed and or tried for crimes against humanity. But rest assured any scientific data you find will be used for the greater good of humanity".

Does that make any sense to you? That sounds like a hypocrite renegade to me.

Your serving your own self-interests, not what is better for the greater
whole. And your argument about setting examples has no bearing here
whatsoever. People will do what they want to do, regardless if Shepard
chooses to destroy the data or keep it. As I said, the only one with the
copy is Mordin and there's no way he is planning on publishing his
findings anytime soon.

My self interests? If I were suiting my self interests I'd use the data!. My concern is for those people who were adbucted and tortured. A true paragon would do everything to stop that FIRST before anything else.  You have to stop the cycle. Using the data only condones their cruel means of acquiring it.

This is definitely a deep, morale quagmire.  But I KNOW that I'm right. You have to make a tremendous sacrifice to stop barbarism like this in the long run.  

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 01:24 .

[aeetos21]

What cycle? Tell me step by step how this data will end up supporting further corruption or torture or whatever label you want to throw on it. Step by step, no "it just will" excuse.

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 01:28 .

[Eduadinho]

Personally i think it is ignorant to destroy something inanimate because of its background. Sure hte means of the data are evil and the people making it are evil but the data itself is not and should be best utilized to make sure the best can come from a very bad situation.
By destroying it you aren't stopping anything One criminal organisation is not just gonna stop doing something because another has been found out and shut down. How i see it is Paragon save data help save lives stop aggressors. Renegade Destroy data set back progress untold years do nothing to stem tide of other illegal experiments.

PS you know that you think you are right

Modifié par Eduadinho, 07 février 2011 - 01:27 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Just destroy the data, then! A renegade +20 isn't going to kill you.

[naledgeborn]

 But it'll kill the Krogan:whistle:

[Praetor Knight]

Hmm... at the heart of this issue is the understanding of Paragon / Renegade I think, and then viewing past historical events with this context, which IMHO is problematic at best.

As others have mentioned there feel to be some inconsistencies in drawing the comparisons from a Paragon Renegade perspective with the matters brought up in the OP.

Oh, and as far as I remember, another organization than the Army was involved in the mentioned research during that period in history.

[AYCK-Xlive]

Personally? I fail to see how an inanimate object can be good or evil, apart from the background of it, and who it falls into the hands of. A fork doesn't jump up from the table suddenly and stab me to death.

A gun created by Mother Theresa can be used to shoot innocents.

a cure for cancer made by Hitler can be used to, well... cure cancer.

Given the circumstances...

...Didn't somebody once said too much of something is not good? it just skipped my mind.

[TowranPeter]

aeetos21 wrote...

What cycle? Tell me step by step how this data will end up supporting further corruption or torture or whatever label you want to throw on it. Step by step, no "it just will" excuse.

Wow, I must of explained that 20 times so far.   Here it goes again.

Scientist Bob uses torture/abduction to find a cure for HIV.

Government uses cure and sentences Bob to life in prison for his crimes.

Scientist Larry decides to use torture too since he doesn't care if he goes to jail. 

Scientist Larry discovers cure to cancer but at the expense of torturing, abducting and experimenting on 1271 human subjects.

Scientist Larry is never caught but submits the data anonymously to the government.

Government uses the cure.

Scientist Jacob hears that government still uses data even if acquired through immoral means.

Scientist Jacob begins testing on human subjects against their will.

The cycle continues......

A true paragon will stop that cycle:

1) Destroy data publicly
2) Send a clear message that any research data acquired through torture of a sapient species will be destroyed.

You must send a message to deter corrupt inviduals from pursuing these actions. You have to protect future people from being abducted and tortured for scientific gain.

Just destroy the data, then! A renegade +20 isn't going to kill you.

No way! I'm playing pure paragon. 

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 01:55 .

[TowranPeter]

naledgeborn wrote...

 But it'll kill the Krogan:whistle:

No it won't, if you study the lore, codex and what a certain person says very carefully you'll know. I don't want to give spoilers.

[Big I]

TowranPeter wrote...

By using the data, you're just setting yourself up for another criminal organization to do the same thing for the next disease. Are you ready for that?  You're indirectly supporting this barbarism, dont' you see? You have to take a stand against it. That is a true paragon.

The cure on Virmire was destroyed and for all the right reasons. This is very similar.

If it were up to me, I'd destroy the data publicly for the entire world to see, to send a clear message.   The cycle has to stop.  No cure is worth torturing and abducting people against their will.

However, if someone voluntarily comes forth to be experimented on and a race is in dire need of a cure or they face extinction, then so be it.  As long as it's voluntary.

You suppose that to use something that has come about as a result of unethical means once necessitates that such methods will be used again. This is false because:

a) It is not necessary to publish it's origins

If it's origins are known, it's not necessary that it will always provide an incentive to repeat the unethical process. To use the genophage cure example, if people knew that Maelon and Clan Weyrloc were workng towards a cure, but that a Spectre then came along and wiped them all/most of them out for doing so, that would provide a disnicentive

c) Pursuant to b, it's possible to provide strong legal disincentives to carry out such unethical actions, simply by incarcerating the people responsible and seizing whatevert they were wroking on.


As for throwing away a cure simply because you disagree with how it was made, that would be the renegade action. You cannot change the past, and by destroying the research you are condemning further innocents to suffer simply for your beliefs.


By all means punish the guilty, but don't let self-righteousness stand in the way of helping others.

[SalsaDMA]

TowranPeter wrote...

By using the data, you're just setting yourself up for another criminal organization to do the same thing for the next disease. Are you ready for that?  You're indirectly supporting this barbarism, dont' you see? You have to take a stand against it. That is a true paragon.

Wrong.

'Another criminal organization' wouldn't care less about wether or not the research of previous organizations were used or not. All they care about is wether or not they can get something out of a probable research. Past usages of research doesn't even enter the fray of things to consider in their case.

The choice isn't "Do we condone experiments on innocents?". It was already clearly illustrated that both Mordin and Shepard, regardless of his/her morality path (paragon/renegade), found the experiments on innocents to be abhorrent.

The choice you are getting paragon/renegade points for is: "Do you kill off a dying race's hope for salvation or not?"

That's why you get paragon points for salvaging the research, to give the dying race another chance at living.
And that's why you get renegade points for further cementing the sociological and genetical death of a race that has no more real hope of surviving as a species.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 07 février 2011 - 02:00 .

[Shadow of Sparta]

SPOILER (I THINK)!



isn't the choice whether to save data and hence possibly save krogans or destroy data and hence prevent/delay krogan salvation?that seems a pretty simple paragon/renegade choice to me.i don't see how saving the data shows other people they can get away with it.nobody except the weyrloc clan,the scout,maelon and sheps crew knew about it.how would it get out that mordin used 'tainted' research.he said that it was still years away from an actual cure.since he initially worked on the genophage he would be able to say it was due to his experience that a cure was found.you seem to be banking on the idea that the whole galaxy knows about the experiments and will use it as an example

[naledgeborn]

@ Towran I get it, he was keeping it level. I still think destroying it is a mistake because it might come in handy. Unlike other suspicious constructs the specific data I'm talking about would be in Shepard's hands not Cerberus'.

[aeetos21]

TowranPeter wrote...

Scientist Bob uses torture/abduction to find a cure for HIV.

Government uses cure and sentences Bob to life in prison for his crimes

Nope.

More like, government uses cure and never tells anyone anything about Scientist Bob. He is either a) secretly imprisoned executed or c) works for the government secretly (like what happened with operation paperclip)

Either way, no one would hear from him and his research would end up in the hands of much more benevolent researchers.

[Xilizhra]

It's a valid point, but I don't think that the exact means of figuring out the genophage cure--if it is indeed ever figured out--will ever be published. It's not like it'll be turned into a how-to guide for mad scientists around the galaxy.

[xentar]

TowranPeter wrote...
No way! I'm playing pure paragon. 

A paragon is just an arbitrary stereotype, not some moral absolute, so, it doesn't have to comply to anyone's vision of good. So, if you care about your decisions, just destroy the data. And if you play 'pure paragon' you shouldn't care about what the decisions are - just as long as they are paragon, it should suffice.

Modifié par xentar, 07 février 2011 - 03:29 .

[TowranPeter]

Nope.  More like, government uses cure and never tells anyone anything about Scientist Bob.

Sounds renegade.  Hiding the truth from the people?

He is either a) secretly imprisoned

Secret prison means secret trial.  There has to be a trial, it doesn't have to be public but it should be known he's being tried for his crime. 

You're renegade.  

works for the government secretly (like what happened with operation paperclip)

If he wants to atone for what he did, then sure. But that still doesn't justify the use of his work, it should be destroyed to discourage other scientists from thinking they can torture people for scientific means.

Either way, no one would hear from him and his research would end up in the hands of much more benevolent researchers.

In game lore: "no data stays hidden forever, eventually it will be recovered".  A person like the shadow broker would eventually get this information and it would leak out. 

Just like in real life you can try to cover something up but eventually word gets out.

All your options are viable, feasible, but they are renegade options.

The true paragon route is to not use the data therefore sending out a clear message that you do not support torture/abudction/experimentation on humans against their will.

[TowranPeter]

xentar wrote...

TowranPeter wrote...
No way! I'm playing pure paragon. 

A paragon is just an arbitrary stereotype, not some moral absolute, so, it doesn't have to comply to anyone's vision of good. So, if you care about your decisions, just destroy the data. And if you play 'pure paragon' you shouldn't care about what the decisions are - just as long as they are paragon, it should suffice.

Aka, just turn your brain off and do what the game says. OK! 

[Shadow of Sparta]

why would the shadow broker leak the information?have you played any dlc lately.i see no way for the info to leak.this thread is getting annoying now.

[xentar]

TowranPeter wrote...

Aka, just turn your brain off and do what the game says. OK! 

Not to imply anything, but if it's more important for you to stay pure paragon, that's what you have to do. Paragon and renegade are just arbitrary points of reference which are defined by the decisions they make. In this particular situation a pure paragon would indeed use the data by definition, while later in the game you might see the situation reversed in similar but apparently different circumstances. This means that if you believe the data has to be destroyed in this particular instance, congratulations, you are not a pure paragon!

[AdmiralCheez]

TowranPeter wrote...

Just destroy the data, then! A renegade +20 isn't going to kill you.

No way! I'm playing pure paragon.

You are letting what some developer thinks is right get in the way of what you think is right?

If the size and color of your morality bars bug you that much, mod.  That way, you can have the best of both worlds.