179 réponses à ce sujet

[Junri]

If you destroy the data, doesn't it mean the people who suffered for it suffered for nothing? Their suffering would have been in vain. Just saying. Keeping the data at least puts a value on their lives. Honestly, if I was tortured, but somehow survived it, and then come out to find out the reason I was tortured for was destroyed and I went through all that garbage for no reason, I'd be pretty pissed. Just because its a reminder of what had happened doesn't mean I see no value in it. The value of the data is even more precious especially if you consider all that lives that went into it.



Also, just because you destroy the data, there is still nothing stopping people from doing unethical research in the first place. They only risk getting their data ruined IF they get caught, which a scientist in this practice probably won't be for some time since they will probably have very strong backing by some powerful people.



Morality isn't blurred between good and evil. Its all about putting everything into perspective. It is why my character has points in both Renegade/Paragon.

[Chuvvy]

By destroying it they died in vain.

Modifié par Slidell505, 07 février 2011 - 04:10 .

[InvincibleHero]

No way. Destroying the data is not a good outcome because it will be no deterrent. You just threw away any possible benefit to the tragedy. If it can serve some good purpose and help humanity or whatever race then morally I'd say you have to use it. Renegade would bve destroing it becasue it is beneficial. The source doesn't matter.



Are you seriously suggesting throwing away a cure for cancer simply because it was obtained by horrifc experimentation. That'd be idiotic. it doesn;t bring the people back ,but can save untold lives. It just makes their sacrifice in vain.

[TowranPeter]

InvincibleHero wrote...

No way. Destroying the data is not a good outcome because it will be no deterrent. You just threw away any possible benefit to the tragedy. If it can serve some good purpose and help humanity or whatever race then morally I'd say you have to use it. Renegade would bve destroing it becasue it is beneficial. The source doesn't matter.

Are you seriously suggesting throwing away a cure for cancer simply because it was obtained by horrifc experimentation. That'd be idiotic. it doesn;t bring the people back ,but can save untold lives. It just makes their sacrifice in vain.

Now corrupt scientists know their work will be used no matter what happens to them.  You've given the green light to every corrupt scentist in the galaxy that it's ok for them to use torture/abduction because even if the scientist is arrested or dies, his work will still be used at the cost of torturing a sapient species. In his eyes, he'll see that as a success and then he'll say, "it was worth it".

In my opinion you don't use the tainted data, by using it you're indirectly supporting the corrupt scientists and setting a bad example which will lead other scientists to repeat the horror.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 07 février 2011 - 05:13 .

[pumpkinman13]

TowranPeter wrote...
Tainted Data

Paragon: Destroy the data, set an example. Tainted data acquired from means of torture will be destroyed. Why? To protect people from being tortured an abucted. Once scientists realize their work won't be used, they won't do it.  But if you continue to use the tainted data everytime the crime is commited, then you accept and condone their work indirectly like a hypocrite. 

Renegade: Oh look, free data, might as well! Hopefully more shows up in the future.  Hey, I didn't commit those crimes, but this data sure is useful! SWEET!  So what people find out in fifty years, no skin off my back.  That will just pave the way for more renegade scientists to do this work so people like me can USE THE DATA! SWEET!

The bolded is where your argument fails. You're utterly mad if you think sick twisted individuals will cease to conduct their mentally depraved acts on that basis.

You also said yourself that a True Paragon sees the future, not just six months ahead. Thus a True Paragon sees the future of a race being rebuilt, instead of them dying out. A True Paragon will ALWAYS work towards the greater good, the lesser of two evils etc.

The immoral act of using the data is less than the immoral act of allowing a race to die out when you have the power not only to revive it but to cure it. Thus, when confronted with such a dilemma, a True Paragon will choose the lesser of two evils.

As others have said it also gives purpose and meaning to those who suffered.

You reiterate over and over again "but you justify the torture". Simple fact is everything else outweighs that. Measures will still be in place to stop madmen from doing it in the future.

As others have said, the greatest leaps in medical science have come from "morally dubious" research. Just look at Leonardo Da Vinci and his work on human Anatomy. He had to conduct that in secret, if he had been discovered he would have been executed for his immorality. And yet look at all the advances that have come from that. The amount of lives that have been saved because of that.

You're totally mad if you think destroying the data is the morally right thing to do.

[Wulfram]

The paragon points for covering up Tali's father's war crimes are much more dubious to me

[InvincibleHero]

TowranPeter wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

No way. Destroying the data is not a good outcome because it will be no deterrent. You just threw away any possible benefit to the tragedy. If it can serve some good purpose and help humanity or whatever race then morally I'd say you have to use it. Renegade would bve destroing it becasue it is beneficial. The source doesn't matter.

Are you seriously suggesting throwing away a cure for cancer simply because it was obtained by horrifc experimentation. That'd be idiotic. it doesn;t bring the people back ,but can save untold lives. It just makes their sacrifice in vain.

Now corrupt scientists know their work will be used no matter what happens to them.  You've given the green light to every corrupt scentist in the galaxy that it's ok for them to use torture/abduction because even if the scientist is arrested or dies, his work will still be used at the cost of torturing a sapient species. In his eyes, he'll see that as a success and then he'll say, "it was worth it".

In my opinion you don't use the tainted data, by using it you're indirectly supporting the corrupt scientists and setting a bad example which will lead other scientists to repeat the horror.

Nothing will deter people that think themselves above concepts such as morality. They think they are doing good much like you blithely ignoring everyone else that doesn't agree with your position. You and he are alike. Public sentiment is saving the data is good this is group morality at work. You are saying nothing matters but what I think much like the unethical scientist.

Death penalty doesn't stop murders from being comitted and neither would destroying data. Is there somehow a mad scientist hive mind in existance. So you believe some child is growing up reads hey this group tortured and killed innocents but cured x disease well cool. Those people are not regaled as heroes so I fail to see your correlation.

It isn't suddenly going to get ethical scientists to break their bounds. After all they ended up dead or arrested and disgraced and then executed for such things.

Not using the data is immoral IMO. How does helping innocents with "tainted research" = bad. I don't care how it was obtained it can be a tool to help. Should police departments not use money seized from criminals for the greater good of society? Should a charity return money if the donor was found to be a murderer later? No such thing.

Destroying something that can be good is immoral not a moral decision. You are putting your morality of one over the welfare of everyone else.

[KiraTsukasa]

So what if, in their dying breath, the victim told you to use the data? Is it still wrong to use it then? What if the victim was a psychopathic killer that has killed hundreds? How about if they were a willing participant, knowing the research may kill them and still volunteering for it?



Here's the thing about good and evil: It is not black and white as you're trying to paint it. The ends don't always justify the means, but there are times that it does. Not that I'm saying that torture is wrong, but if the outcome could help untold billions, are you really going to let the sacrifice of one person be in vain?

[Glorious_Leader]

There's a flaw with your "Mad Scientist Bob" example.  In the example, you propose that a man is inclined to evil and justifies this evil with medical results.  When this type of thing actually occurs, it's usually the opposite.  A man is inclined to virtue in the acquisition of knowledge that may benefit his people.  Unfortunately, a sacrifice must be made to achieve this panacea of wisdom.  The few are sacrificed to save the many, and to those who's life is saved by the results of the experiments, I'm sure it seems like it was a necessary evil.  The outcome doesn't make the means any more ethicle, but it does give the means purpose. 

The National Socialist Party of Germany weren't doing experiments on human beings.  They were doing experiments on Jews.  Or at least, that was their perspective.  To them, their actions seemed ethical.  They honestly thought that Jews were inferior.  Their scientific data pointed to this being an empirical truth.  Their experiments would go on to save lives, and they knew this.  And unlike so many others that sacrificed a few, valuable lives to save many, they were sacrificing vermin of an inferior breed.  The few that they sacrificed were meaningless, as far as they knew.  They didn't see themselves as evil.  They were doing what they thought was the right thing, and their logic justified it adequately.

However, this digression is off topic, I suppose.  Yet it does serve the purpose of illustrating that the scenario in Mass Effect is really in no way similar to the Holocaust.  Information by itself is neutral, regardless of its source.  

However, with the curing of the genophage, I'd imagine there will be paragon and renegade options for either path, kind of like the hanar preacher in the Citadel.  It's not which route you take, as both have their pros and cons, but it's how you get there that makes the difference.

Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 07 février 2011 - 09:58 .

[Dexi]

Too much to read, so I'll just give my opinion...



I'd keep the data. Why?

If I destroy that data, EVERYONE that died, DIED IN VAIN. They died for nothing...



By keeping the data, their deaths have a reason... they at least died for a greater good.



Furthermore, you say that by keeping the data you say "it's ok to be gay... er... do sick experiment", but by keeping the data, you might just as well prevent another... ahem... sick'n'mad scientist doing the same experiments searching in the same/similar area.



Furthermore, I'd take the scientist, make him do a public apology to the world, especially to the lost ones' families, and have him suffer a painful death. I'd also make the death seem worse to the public than it really was, just making sure it won't repeat itself.



Furthermore, I'd declare the victims heroes, and give them their own celebration day.

I'd also put in circulation a series of laws that would make it considerably harder for anyone to try anything like this in the future.





But hm, reading your post, I see you written it in such a way you have a way of counter-arguing almost any opinion with strictly making the act of keeping the data renegade and destroying it paragon.







Son... life is not black and white. It's only darker and whiter gray.

[Village_Idiot]

TowranPeter wrote...

In my opinion you don't use the tainted data, by using it you're indirectly supporting the corrupt scientists and setting a bad example which will lead other scientists to repeat the horror.

Does the fact that whichever individual(s) responsible were brought to justice not also set an example that their practices were deemed morally wrong, and that other "corrupt scientists" would not get away with it?

In any case, I can't sincerely believe that anybody who was willing to conduct morally questionable experiments would do it simply because there was a precedent. They do it because they believe the end justifies the means. Anyone who conducts torture e.t.c. just because they think they are entitled to is clearly not of sound mind, and therefore could not be swayed by common logic.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 07 février 2011 - 08:48 .

[JrayM16]

TowranPeter wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

No way. Destroying the data is not a good outcome because it will be no deterrent. You just threw away any possible benefit to the tragedy. If it can serve some good purpose and help humanity or whatever race then morally I'd say you have to use it. Renegade would bve destroing it becasue it is beneficial. The source doesn't matter.

Are you seriously suggesting throwing away a cure for cancer simply because it was obtained by horrifc experimentation. That'd be idiotic. it doesn;t bring the people back ,but can save untold lives. It just makes their sacrifice in vain.

Now corrupt scientists know their work will be used no matter what happens to them.  You've given the green light to every corrupt scentist in the galaxy that it's ok for them to use torture/abduction because even if the scientist is arrested or dies, his work will still be used at the cost of torturing a sapient species. In his eyes, he'll see that as a success and then he'll say, "it was worth it".

In my opinion you don't use the tainted data, by using it you're indirectly supporting the corrupt scientists and setting a bad example which will lead other scientists to repeat the horror.

I think that this moral confusion was what Bioware designed the choice to be about.  There is still merit to both sides here. 

On one hand, crazy scientists could be convinced that their awful work is justified.  On the other hand, why waste potentially valuable research? 

Here's a scenario set in the modern world.  Let's say some weird crazy scientists perform terrible experiments on hundreds of people.  The subjects are either dead or horribly deformed and mentally scarred for life by the experiments.  But it is discovered that the research produced a cheap and definite cure for AIDs, a cure which could save millions of lives and imporve the stability of third world countires around the planet. 

Is it worth destroying that cure(which doctors aren't even close to finding) just to dissuade other potential crazy scientists?  What woul;d you say to a persona bout to die of AIDs because you destroyed that cure.  How could you justify it to them?

[Wulfram]

I do think this is one of the occasions where paragon/renegade could have been based more on why you were doing something rather than what. So you'd get paragon points for keeping the data to help the Krogan or for destroying the data because of it's source, while you get renegade points for keeping the data because it might be a useful bargaining chip or destroying it because the Krogan are too dangerous to be allowed the chance.

[JrayM16]

Corrupt scientists will perform corrupt experiements regardless of any dterant or motivation. That's just their nature as corrupt scientists.



And by the way, announcing the destruction of the data is the WORST AND MOST EVIL ACTION YOU COULD POSSIBLY PERFORM.



Allow me to explain:



FIrst off, it would give crazy scientists motivation to continue said work now they know it was going on. Now you've jsut caused more torture, but for the same reason as the first round, threrefore completely wasting the lives the the first set of subjects, and sacrificing the lives of those used in the second experiements by not using the original research.



Then, to use the Krogan example, the people who now know they could've been cured get angry, will probably try and kill the person who publicly destroyed the data, maybe even start a civil war in retribution which will kill millions.



Your option is by far the most evil; and vile outcome to the situation Towran.

[Stanley Woo]

This is reminder to keep the discussion directly related to the game, please. This kind of discussion can easily get out of hand, and we don't want that.

[Shadow of Sparta]

it already has.theres no convincing him.i think people are giving up and leaving this thread.speaking of which,why am i still here?

[JrayM16]

Dexi wrote...

Too much to read, so I'll just give my opinion...

I'd keep the data. Why?
If I destroy that data, EVERYONE that died, DIED IN VAIN. They died for nothing...

By keeping the data, their deaths have a reason... they at least died for a greater good.

Furthermore, you say that by keeping the data you say "it's ok to be gay... er... do sick experiment", but by keeping the data, you might just as well prevent another... ahem... sick'n'mad scientist doing the same experiments searching in the same/similar area.

Furthermore, I'd take the scientist, make him do a public apology to the world, especially to the lost ones' families, and have him suffer a painful death. I'd also make the death seem worse to the public than it really was, just making sure it won't repeat itself.

Furthermore, I'd declare the victims heroes, and give them their own celebration day.
I'd also put in circulation a series of laws that would make it considerably harder for anyone to try anything like this in the future.


But hm, reading your post, I see you written it in such a way you have a way of counter-arguing almost any opinion with strictly making the act of keeping the data renegade and destroying it paragon.



Son... life is not black and white. It's only darker and whiter gray.

Best post so far.  Post of the day.

[StowyMcStowstow]

TowranPeter wrote...

(Before you freak out, hear me out.  This is definitely an intellectual, mature discussion since Mass Effect content in general is very mature & intellectual. And make sure you read my supporting logic statement, it will most likely counter intitial argument and saving me the time of having to repeat myself).

You're given the option to use a certain piece of 'useful data' that was acquired through means of gross scientific experiment & torture.   Much like Hitler's science camp that experimented on Jews, the scenario is very similar.  Hitler performed horrible experiments on his fellow humans and questionable, useful scientific data was produced.

In my opinion, choosing to use this data is renegade.  And choosing to destroy it is paragon. 

Shepard specifically says that the data is tainted.  I too believe it is tainted.  I'd much rather destroy the data and stay true to the belief that any scientific data acquired through the use of torture and horrid scientific means should be destroyed and thus award Paragon.  By accepting the use of the data, you're justifying future rebel organizations the means of torture and adbuction since they know full well you'll use the research.

Supporting Logic

Scientist Bob is mad & crazy, he has decided that he will experiment on human beings through an excessive means of torture to achieve a scientific result.  Bob knows that his horrid experiments will result in his own death via execution by his government, but in his sick & twisted mind he knows that his scientific data will still be used even though he will be killed.   He uses this as justification for his cause. 

Three years pass and Bob has produced a huge amount of beneficial scientific data for humanity, but 182 babies were tortured and burned alive,  812 males were brutally tortured and 189 women were raped repeatedly over & over again.  But the scientific data acquired through such horrid means is 'valuable'. 

Choosing to keep it is renegade.

Choosing to destroy it is paragon.

By destroying the data you send a clear message to anyone corrupt that torture and horrid experimentation on sapient species is not tolerated IN ANYWAY.  Bioware seems to think it is justified, kind of sad that their writers are corrupt in this way.

The game is trying to force me to believe that torture and gross scientific experiment are 'paragon'.  This post was made to send a clear message to Bioware that it IS NOT PARAGON.

You have a point, but government have done this before. The scientific data gathered by Hitlers scientists and the Japanese scientists was taken by the U.S. government after it was discovered. Why? because A) they didn't do it, and because it was useful, and the men who did it were properly punished.

According to the 2002 International Symposium on the Crimes of Bacteriological Warfare, the number of people killed by the Imperial Japanese Armygerm warfare and human experiments is around 580,000.[5] According to other sources, the use of biological weapons researched in Unit 731's bioweapons and chemical weapons programs resulted in possibly as many as 200,000 deaths of military personnel and civilians in China.[6] 
(taken from wikipedia)
Also, while this was going on, the Rape of Nanking was taking place. hundreds of thousands of women raped daily, simply for the lulz by the occupying Japanese forces. Literally. There was a contest by the Japanese generals.

Soooo. edit: Just do to him what he did to his victims. But slower, so he doesn't die right away. The above post was very good. I wish I had thought of that.... anyway, I change my answer. While something like that is pretty renegade-ish, the people who died will have died for nothing if the data is destroyed. It would make the scientists life also worthless, and that's ok, but keeping it would also mean that he succeeded in his plan to... benefit humanity at the cost of approximately 1000 lives. Assuming the women were also killed. If they were not, then they have years of therapy ahead of them. 

. Although raping women multiple times would yield very little new scientific data (not that I know from firsthand experience or anything, but I'm just saying there isn't much we don't already know).



 

Modifié par StowyMcStowstow, 07 février 2011 - 10:12 .

[StowyMcStowstow]

JrayM16 wrote...

Dexi wrote...

Too much to read, so I'll just give my opinion...

I'd keep the data. Why?
If I destroy that data, EVERYONE that died, DIED IN VAIN. They died for nothing...

By keeping the data, their deaths have a reason... they at least died for a greater good.

Furthermore, you say that by keeping the data you say "it's ok to be gay... er... do sick experiment", but by keeping the data, you might just as well prevent another... ahem... sick'n'mad scientist doing the same experiments searching in the same/similar area.

Furthermore, I'd take the scientist, make him do a public apology to the world, especially to the lost ones' families, and have him suffer a painful death. I'd also make the death seem worse to the public than it really was, just making sure it won't repeat itself.

Furthermore, I'd declare the victims heroes, and give them their own celebration day.
I'd also put in circulation a series of laws that would make it considerably harder for anyone to try anything like this in the future.


But hm, reading your post, I see you written it in such a way you have a way of counter-arguing almost any opinion with strictly making the act of keeping the data renegade and destroying it paragon.



Son... life is not black and white. It's only darker and whiter gray.

Best post so far.  Post of the day.

I like this. This is good.

Modifié par StowyMcStowstow, 07 février 2011 - 10:13 .

[Shotokanguy]

I haven't read one full page of this topic, because I figured I had a chance to end it right now if no one else has said this yet:



I thought this topic was about the Collector Base.



Using the data from the Collector Base, where humans were reduced to goop, is Renegade. Destroying it is Paragon.



Your topic is a non-issue. Paragon and Renegade are just a means to an end. It is up to you to determine your Shepard's intentions.

[aeetos21]

Guys his entire argument is based on that if you don't set an example by destroying the data then other people will torture and use unethical means in future scientific projects. If you don't agree with this and think that STG or the government or whatever would cover up the crimes and use the data anyway, then you're renegade.

Honestly if I lost a loved one I'd rather be told a lie that they died peacefully rather than hear how they were tortured. And we've already set dozens of examples on how it wouldn't be seen as an example by others because no one would find out about it. At this point there's nothing left to be said as he is clinging to this hope like a kid refusing to believe Santa isn't real and anyone who disagrees with him is automatically a "renegade."

All of that said.

(Before you freak out, hear me out. 
This is definitely an intellectual, mature discussion since Mass Effect
content in general is very mature & intellectual. And make sure you
read my supporting logic statement, it will most likely counter intitial
argument and saving me the time of having to repeat myself).

This thread is quickly losing its intellectual merits.

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2011 - 11:20 .

[kalle90]

TowranPeter wrote...
That will force corrupt scientists to deal with the simple fact that the person they are torturing will be for nothing since their data will most definitely be destroyed.

That is the true paragon route.  A true paragon sees the future, not just 6 months ahead of him.

That could work either way. If the data is the key to improve something it can have really far reaching beneficial consequences. If you destroy it it's just giving a sign that probably won't be remembered for too long (people will still do crazy experiments and crimes if it benefits them). "Criminals" that work to help other people are very rare. Kinda makes me think about how all animal experiments should be banned even for medicines because that info is tainted too.

Although I also feel that destroying the data is meant to be just a way of saying "screw the dangerous aliens" instead of "it's wrong to use it"

I do think that it's illogical that the same choice (Cure-Base) happens twice during the game but the same choice leads to paragon points on 1 case on to renegade on the other. Just increases the feeling that Para/Rene system doesn't do any good. All the individual choices should just come with their own consequences 

[JrayM16]

Yeah, I think that the only thing this thread has proven is that Renegade/Paragon is a fundamentally falwed system and that people should just go for what feels right to them.



The OP's only problem seems to be that the chocie he dislikes is presented as paragon, the choice itself is fairly grey. The OP really just needs to play in the way that satisfies his own moral compass and ignore paragon and renegade entirely.

[Saren100]

TowranPeter wrote...

(Before you freak out, hear me out.  This is definitely an intellectual, mature discussion since Mass Effect content in general is very mature & intellectual. And make sure you read my supporting logic statement, it will most likely counter intitial argument and saving me the time of having to repeat myself).

You're given the option to use a certain piece of 'useful data' that was acquired through means of gross scientific experiment & torture.   Much like Hitler's science camp that experimented on Jews, the scenario is very similar.  Hitler performed horrible experiments on his fellow humans and questionable, useful scientific data was produced.

In my opinion, choosing to use this data is renegade.  And choosing to destroy it is paragon. 

Shepard specifically says that the data is tainted.  I too believe it is tainted.  I'd much rather destroy the data and stay true to the belief that any scientific data acquired through the use of torture and horrid scientific means should be destroyed and thus award Paragon.  By accepting the use of the data, you're justifying future rebel organizations the means of torture and adbuction since they know full well you'll use the research.

Supporting Logic

Scientist Bob is mad & crazy, he has decided that he will experiment on human beings through an excessive means of torture to achieve a scientific result.  Bob knows that his horrid experiments will result in his own death via execution by his government, but in his sick & twisted mind he knows that his scientific data will still be used even though he will be killed.   He uses this as justification for his cause. 

Three years pass and Bob has produced a huge amount of beneficial scientific data for humanity, but 182 babies were tortured and burned alive,  812 males were brutally tortured and 189 women were raped repeatedly over & over again.  But the scientific data acquired through such horrid means is 'valuable'. 

Choosing to keep it is renegade.

Choosing to destroy it is paragon.

By destroying the data you send a clear message to anyone corrupt that torture and horrid experimentation on sapient species is not tolerated IN ANYWAY.  Bioware seems to think it is justified, kind of sad that their writers are corrupt in this way.

The game is trying to force me to believe that torture and gross scientific experiment are 'paragon'.  This post was made to send a clear message to Bioware that it IS NOT PARAGON.

[Voods07]

 You forgot the option of letting mordin delete the old copy and keeping the only one for himself, to lock away. In my eyes there is nothing renegade about that.

What if in ME3 the Krogan need 1 more piece of the puzzle to solve the genophage, and that data has it. Congratz, your now responsible for the further sterilization of the Krogan(if you completely destroyed the data).

I like to look at it in Mordin's perspective, one can really learn a lot if you pay enough attention to his rationale.

Modifié par Voods07, 08 février 2011 - 12:12 .