77 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

Hey all, just wondering if you feel these choices are correct: Without Metagaming, what choices my warden should make if he were to be like.. A Paragon of Light, not even willing to do little evil for greater good. I have sort of an idea, tell me what you think and if you think something is wrong for this path I'm taking please point it out.

Recruited all companions
Cured Werewolves.
Helped Mages
Made Harrowmont King - Even though he may be the stupid choice, Like I said not willing to do little evil for greater good and Harrowmont being a Kinslayer.
Destroyed Anvil.
Saved Urn, Sent Genitivi home for fear of his safety.
Helped Redcliffe.
Let Isolde Sacrifice herself - This part im very confused about, I mean it could be considered Evil to Leave Redcliffe with the demon for so long.. keep in mind im not metagaming
Spared Marjolene
Alistair and Anora married. Spared Loghain
Refused Ritual
Let Loghain sacrifice himself to redeem himself, and to be remembered as the hero he initially was.

Awakening:

Spared the farmer, recruited into army
Woman sent to prison - more of a neutral choice but hes good not stupid. if he allows desertion he knows there will be backlash.
leave the plotting nobles to attack me.
saved Amaranthine
Unsure about Architect.

What do you guys think?

[Xilizhra]

Choosing Bhelen isn't doing evil. Helping him get away with his kinslaying would be, but with the evil already done, all you can do is make the choice that's better for the dwarves.



If you do want to go fully ME-Paragon, you'll need to do the lyrium ritual.



The dark ritual isn't evil in my own opinion.



I haven't played Awakening so I can't assess that. But the rest seems all right.

[Augustei]

Problem with Bhelen is he is a very cruel man. Harrowmont seems to be sticking up for Tradition which is not a good thing but you cannot really determine he is an evil or bad person unless you give him the anvil.



My charecter is sort of like Bailian (Orlando Bloom) from Kingdom of Heaven, who is unwilling to do little evil for greater good by declining the throne thereby having Guy de Lusignan and his knights executed to secure the Kingdom. So he allows the throne to be taken by a corrupt bastard who would bring the kingdom to ruin.



Then again, Guy de Lusignan can be related to both Kings Harrowmont and Bhelen.

He is corrupt like Bhelen and will lead the Kingdom to ruin like Harrowmont.. Hmm damn im still unsure

[Xilizhra]

Problem with Bhelen is he is a very cruel man. Harrowmont seems to be sticking up for Tradition which is not a good thing but you cannot really determine he is an evil or bad person unless you give him the anvil.

I wouldn't say "cruel." Ruthless? Murderous? Yes. But do we ever see him enjoying someone else's pain? I can't remember any instances.

[antigravitycat]

I agree for the most, but not for the sacrifice of Isolde. Going to the Circle, getting help from the mages as soon as possible and then let Jowan enter the Fade to redeem himself is what I would consider the most just and good.



Unsure about Ameranthine, both choices seem bad. Either all your friends die or you give up a city already lost. The devs did a bad job here, you get only to chose one way and the outcome is unrealistic. At the siege of Denerim your friends who stayed back can defend themselves and survival is possible. At the siege of Amaranthine you just get a lousy message like "btw all your friends dided during siege lol kthxbai" which is completely rediculous and unrealistic facing the fact that 4 party members can stop a whole siege when you chose to play it, but when you do not chose to play it they all die. So I would take that decision out completely, maybe.



Unsure a bit about the Architect. He gabe free will to the beings who had none of that before. In the end that causes more havoc and evil than before with darkspawn being even more vile. Either you support his way and this madness continues in completely unethical ways or you take him out. I would vote for taking him out to be the good choice, preventing more evil. But that's still debatable.

[Xilizhra]

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

[Augustei]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

Exept Justice and Velanna wont survive unless you take them with you.

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

This. I always save Amaranthine. :happy:

[Augustei]

Xilizhra wrote...

Problem with Bhelen is he is a very cruel man. Harrowmont seems to be sticking up for Tradition which is not a good thing but you cannot really determine he is an evil or bad person unless you give him the anvil.

I wouldn't say "cruel." Ruthless? Murderous? Yes. But do we ever see him enjoying someone else's pain? I can't remember any instances.

He sat through a few provings. Lol, that might count =P

[Xilizhra]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

Exept Justice and Velanna wont survive unless you take them with you.

Far from a dealbreaker for me, thankfully.

[antigravitycat]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

Hm, that is strange, because I paid the highest price and told Voldrik to build the best defenses and when saving Amaranthine I still got the messages that all companions unfortunately died. I found that disturbing, very much... "I pity the siege crew trying to breach these walls"... right, didn't help at all. :shrug:

[Augustei]

antigravitycat wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

Hm, that is strange, because I paid the highest price and told Voldrik to build the best defenses and when saving Amaranthine I still got the messages that all companions unfortunately died. I found that disturbing, very much... "I pity the siege crew trying to breach these walls"... right, didn't help at all. :shrug:

The Epilogue slides were quite bugged, and did you close off the bottem of the keep where the darkspawn were coming out the cellers?

[antigravitycat]

XxDeonxX wrote...

antigravitycat wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

Hm, that is strange, because I paid the highest price and told Voldrik to build the best defenses and when saving Amaranthine I still got the messages that all companions unfortunately died. I found that disturbing, very much... "I pity the siege crew trying to breach these walls"... right, didn't help at all. :shrug:

The Epilogue slides were quite bugged, and did you close off the bottem of the keep where the darkspawn were coming out the cellers?

Yeah I did that too, all cleaned out of darkspawn and Voldrik in the end shut the doors to the Deep Roads. As I said I thought that was very strange. Maybe my game was bugged in a way? Awakening is already full of bugs... If it is bugged then I have to correct my previous statement and I agree that saving Amaranthine is then the better choice.

[USArmyParatrooper]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Problem with Bhelen is he is a very cruel man. Harrowmont seems to be sticking up for Tradition which is not a good thing but you cannot really determine he is an evil or bad person unless you give him the anvil.

My charecter is sort of like Bailian (Orlando Bloom) from Kingdom of Heaven, who is unwilling to do little evil for greater good by declining the throne thereby having Guy de Lusignan and his knights executed to secure the Kingdom. So he allows the throne to be taken by a corrupt bastard who would bring the kingdom to ruin.

Then again, Guy de Lusignan can be related to both Kings Harrowmont and Bhelen.
He is corrupt like Bhelen and will lead the Kingdom to ruin like Harrowmont.. Hmm damn im still unsure

f

This is the problem I run into. Bhelen is a crewl, power hungry tyrant who murdered his brothers and his father. Harrowmount means well, but his ideals are oldfashioned and widen the class divide - and he is generally a weak leader.

I used to go with Harrowmount because I have little tolerance for tyrants, but I recently changed to Bhelen since he's better for the people and it's not like Harrowmount is innocent of any corruption.

[Augustei]

My Charecter wont commit evil himself, but is willing to let things slide that will have an evil outcome.. Sounds weird I know. Im sort of basing him off Bailian from Kingdom of Heaven... I know he was a person in real life but im reflecting my charecter of the fictional Bailian



So which King would someone chose if they cannot do any evil. But are willing to accept Evil outcomes

[HolyAvenger]

I did all of those (inc choosing Harrowmont), but I also did the Circle rescue of Connor from the demon, I killed the Architect and killed Marjolaine.

[Shinobu]

If you can't do evil, I 'd choose Harrowmont (*shudder*).



As for all companions dying in Awakening, I think you have to upgrade everything. That includes finding all ores for better armor/weapons, getting good stone for the walls, giving lyrium sand to Dworkin, etc., ...not just paying for the masons and closing the entrance to the deep roads.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

XxDeonxX wrote...

So which King would someone chose if they cannot do any evil. But are willing to accept Evil outcomes

For all that Bhelen is a snake, he promises to do things to benefit Orzammar and the dwarves that Harrowmont does not. Your good character might deplore Bhelen's reputed evil acts and blackmailing methods, but Bhelen intends to improve the lot of the casteless for instance, which is a Good Thing for a lot of badly-off people. Harrowmont, while appearing to be a good (or at least 'not evil') guy, is a traditionalist, and will continue to let the casteless rot.

So it depends if you're willing to side with a murdering bastard and hope he does what he promised, or choose the other guy and let Orzammar continue on its by-now traditional decline (not an evil outcome, per se, but not a good one either).

But if your character can't do evil, then keep in mind that siding with Bhelen will require you to deliver falsified reports to people and falsely smear Harrowmont's name. However, you *can* claim PC ignorance if you don't get these papers checked with the Shaperate before delivering them.

[Zombie Chow]

I admire your "no metagaming" approach.  However, even with limited information, there's a few you can reconsider some of those choices.  Mainly, it's about your Isolde and Harrowmont decisions.

XxDeonxX wrote...

My charecter is sort of like Bailian (Orlando Bloom) from Kingdom of Heaven, who is unwilling to do little evil for greater good

At Castle Redcliffe, with the "do no evil" approach, you should save BOTH Isolde and Connor.  You're right that it is a risk, as even though you wiped out the undead along the way with Ser Perth and his knights, Connor could return to mind control them afterwards.  I believe you consider sacrificing Isolde to be the "safe bet".

However, that involves Blood Magic, which your character should believe to be outright evil.  The Chantry says so, even the Circle of Magi says so, and as I recall Wynne reminds you.  It also involves working with Jowan, a maleficar who tried to poison the Arl and started the whole mess.  He may be lying about using Isolde's blood to help you...he could just as well be tricking you to take that magic power for his escape.

As a result, sacrificing Isolde is clearly the evil option here, not because of her death, but because it involves Blood Magic.  Unless your character is tolerant of it to the point of going against the Chantry and the Circle of Magi, he would not consider it as an option.  There's even a dialogue option for him to state this outright.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Then again, Guy de Lusignan can be related to both Kings Harrowmont and Bhelen.
He is corrupt like Bhelen and will lead the Kingdom to ruin like Harrowmont.. Hmm damn im still unsure

I focused my current "canon" playthrough here.  The Dwarven king decision is the single hardest one, but I reached a conclusion just with the information you find before completing their First Tasks or entering the Proving, at which point you're pretty locked in (yes, you can betray your candidate, but this doesn't look like something your character would do).

Before going further, I just wanted to ask why you think Bhelen is a crueler man than Harrowmont.  I'd like to hear you out first and respond to your specific needs here.

The other decisions I largely agree with based on your "do no metagaming or evil" stance.  I have Awakening, but haven't played it yet as I'm still finishing my "canon" playthrough.

[Mr_Steph]

I don't know......if the character mustn't do any evil himself then I can't see how you side with Bhelen since you youself would go around knowing you are showing forged documents to the daces.........and that other family.



"However, you *can* claim PC ignorance if you don't get these papers checked with the Shaperate before delivering them."



Vartag more or less cannot make it more clear that they are falsified without downright saying it.

[Zombie Chow]

Mr_Steph wrote...

I don't know......if the character mustn't do any evil himself then I can't see how you side with Bhelen since you youself would go around knowing you are showing forged documents to the daces.........and that other family.

"However, you *can* claim PC ignorance if you don't get these papers checked with the Shaperate before delivering them."

Vartag more or less cannot make it more clear that they are falsified without downright saying it.

You're absolutely right, but that is precisely the "no metagaming" aspect in action.  Ignorance is strength here, even though it's unintentional.

Whereas the character would already know Blood Magic is evil, he might not imagine the notes are forged.  It takes a thief to recognise a thief.

Thus, it's really hard to anticipate how OP wants his character to react.  Deon, please share your thoughts on Harrowmont/Bhelen some more.

[Mr_Steph]

So the PC is just stupid? The first 4 times or so I sided with Harrowmont because Vartag was shaddy and made it obvious that the papers where false. Didn't know anything about Bhelen's epilogue etc. before my 5th playthrough.

[Augustei]

Harrowmont seems generally to be an honorable trusting person but his views are old and dated. His actions are seemingly keeping orzamaar on the path of a downfall

and fall of their empire. However when he gives me a promise for troops I believe it to be a more genuine one as he seems unwilling to lie and has generally very good morals. Bhelen has proven to be willing to lie and cheat to get what he wants. Giving me False documents and the whole kin slaying thing he seems to have bad morals. Picking Harrowmont seems to be not doing evil for no future good. Whereas picking Bhelen seems to me doing little evil for greater good. But yeah like I said my charecter isn't really willing to do any evil.

[ejoslin]

I think a good character can very easily choose Bhelen without metagaming. If instead of looking at who you like the most, you look at how the assembly bickers and is deadlocked, how even then some houses are trying desperately to advance themselves, and decide who would better to be able to lead. Before you talk to either Bhelen or Harrowmont, it is made clear that Bhelen is strong but ruthless, and Harrowmont is nice but weak. You also see that Bhelen can manipulate even Harrowmonts most loyal men.



My first character was good, and I choose Bhelen because I could see that the assembly would eat Harrowmont alive, and that's a horrible thing to do to a country at war.



As far as the circle tower, and talking about blood magic being evil, the Chantry would call Connor an abomination who must be put to death. I think allowing Isolde to sacrifice herself to save Connor, rather than leaving the town at the demon's mercy for a few days -- not knowing whether the Templars would allow the mages to leave, or would even allow Connor to survive if they heard what was going on -- is the best choice. Yes, blood magic is evil by the standards in the land, but so are abominations.