77 réponses à ce sujet

[Zombie Chow]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Harrowmont seems generally to be an honorable trusting person but his views are old and dated. His actions are seemingly keeping orzamaar on the path of a downfall and fall of their empire. However when he gives me a promise for troops I believe it to be a more genuine one as he seems unwilling to lie and has generally very good morals. Bhelen has proven to be willing to lie and cheat to get what he wants. Giving me False documents and the whole kin slaying thing he seems to have bad morals. Picking Harrowmont seems to be not doing evil for no future good. Whereas picking Bhelen seems to me doing little evil for greater good. But yeah like I said my charecter isn't really willing to do any evil.

I just want to check, is your character a Dwarf Noble?  Otherwise he might not know Harrowmont's personality or Bhelen being a kin slayer in advance.

If your character is not a Dwarf Noble, a lot of what you said would be considered "metagaming" since there's no way he would know that.  If he is, then Harrowmont's the obvious choice.

I wasn't sure as you mentioned him being a Paragon of Light but continuously compared him to Orlando Bloom, so I wasn't thinking of him as a Dwarf necessarily.

[antigravitycat]

ejoslin wrote...

[...]

As far as the circle tower, and talking about blood magic being evil, the Chantry would call Connor an abomination who must be put to death. I think allowing Isolde to sacrifice herself to save Connor, rather than leaving the town at the demon's mercy for a few days -- not knowing whether the Templars would allow the mages to leave, or would even allow Connor to survive if they heard what was going on -- is the best choice. Yes, blood magic is evil by the standards in the land, but so are abominations.

Well it does not matter what the Chantry says, they are not the beacon of all truth and goodness in all cases after all, we know that. True that if Connor would stay possessed he would be a big threat and it would be best to take him out. To say the least, what he did since being an abomination didn't cover himself in glory. But you know from Jowan that Connor can be saved and without Blood Magic and without killing anybody. And in the end when you head to the Circle Irving will agree and take the chance to free the child from the grasp of the demon. Letting Jowan enter the Fade will let him redeem himself, he also seems very willing to do that. By that you save the lives and offer redemtion to Jowan, Isolde will have to let go of Connor who will be sent to the Circle. Clearing things up and getting the most fair treatment for all people who are involved. Considering the circumstances this is the best you can get out of it I think.

[Augustei]

Zombie Chow wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Harrowmont seems generally to be an honorable trusting person but his views are old and dated. His actions are seemingly keeping orzamaar on the path of a downfall and fall of their empire. However when he gives me a promise for troops I believe it to be a more genuine one as he seems unwilling to lie and has generally very good morals. Bhelen has proven to be willing to lie and cheat to get what he wants. Giving me False documents and the whole kin slaying thing he seems to have bad morals. Picking Harrowmont seems to be not doing evil for no future good. Whereas picking Bhelen seems to me doing little evil for greater good. But yeah like I said my charecter isn't really willing to do any evil.

I just want to check, is your character a Dwarf Noble?  Otherwise he might not know Harrowmont's personality or Bhelen being a kin slayer in advance.

If your character is not a Dwarf Noble, a lot of what you said would be considered "metagaming" since there's no way he would know that.  If he is, then Harrowmont's the obvious choice.

I wasn't sure as you mentioned him being a Paragon of Light but continuously compared him to Orlando Bloom, so I wasn't thinking of him as a Dwarf necessarily.

Yeah hes not a dwarf noble, Human noble.. He wouldn't be able to confirm it, just going over majority of public opinion and the note founds in Harrowmonts Quaters.. probably scratch that then lol

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 février 2011 - 07:21 .

[Augustei]

ejoslin wrote...

I think a good character can very easily choose Bhelen without metagaming. If instead of looking at who you like the most, you look at how the assembly bickers and is deadlocked, how even then some houses are trying desperately to advance themselves, and decide who would better to be able to lead. Before you talk to either Bhelen or Harrowmont, it is made clear that Bhelen is strong but ruthless, and Harrowmont is nice but weak. You also see that Bhelen can manipulate even Harrowmonts most loyal men.

My first character was good, and I choose Bhelen because I could see that the assembly would eat Harrowmont alive, and that's a horrible thing to do to a country at war.

As far as the circle tower, and talking about blood magic being evil, the Chantry would call Connor an abomination who must be put to death. I think allowing Isolde to sacrifice herself to save Connor, rather than leaving the town at the demon's mercy for a few days -- not knowing whether the Templars would allow the mages to leave, or would even allow Connor to survive if they heard what was going on -- is the best choice. Yes, blood magic is evil by the standards in the land, but so are abominations.

Bhelen would quite clarly be the best choice if your willing to do little evil for greater good. But i'm still not sure or not if he would be the best choice if your unwilling to commit any evil.. True I could just have my warden act ignorent to the truth of the documents. That might be one way to go about it, one of the Merchants talk about him though how he saw him beat his second.. Even though Vartag is an ass and probably deserved it lol.

[Augustei]

I actually find myself wondering about Ruck However.. Is killing him considered evil? I normally do as an act of mercy since he has the darkspawn corruption.. But what would be the 'good' course of action? Killing him and lying to his mother, leaving him there and lying to his mother or leaving him there and telling his mother the truth?

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 février 2011 - 03:03 .

[shatteredstar56]

I think the only thing that could be changed would be to save the whole family, and not let anyone die for the demon. A true Paragon and Light character would do the extra work to make sure the whole family was reunited.

[ejoslin]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I actually find myself wondering about Ruck However.. Is killing him considered evil? I normally do as an act of mercy since he has the darkspawn corruption.. But what would be the 'good' course of action? Killing him and lying to his mother, leaving him there and lying to his mother or leaving him there and telling his mother the truth?

If you have Zevran or Oghren in your party, they can force you in the vanilla game to kill Ruck, which is interesting.  There are a few points in the game where Zevran asks for mercy for someone else, and this is one of them (the others, mind you, are when you're going to do something pretty terrible).  I have a mod that unlocks a few more dialog choices in that encounter, but it doesn't change the jist of what is said -- that ruck is insane and dying already, and it's cruel to leave him alive.

[Last Darkness]

A Perfect Knight is wonderful in Concept and Fantasy but the reality of their actions usualy causes more harm then anything else. Also the game would be unwinable, because you wouldnt be allowed to kill anyone or anything for any reasons or stand by while you watch others do it.



Also the status of personal Honour and Morals over those of others is a very self centered and evil trait. Why do you think the best example of Altruism are Martyrs?



But to answer your question in reguards to main quests....theres a good and a right way to most deicisions. Raely is the good solution and the right solution ever the same. I also include a Grey Warden option, whats best for Ferelden and to stop the Blight.

-Werewolves/Forest-

The Good thing to do is, kill the Werewolves and protect the Dahlish Elves.

The Right thing to do is, cure the werewolves.

The Grey Warden thing to do, recruit the werewolves as they are stronger allies then the single Dahlish camp.



-Anvil of the Void-

The good thing to do, destroy the anvil, make Harrowmont King.

The Right thing to do, Have Branka destroy the Anvil, make Bhelen King.

The Grey Warden thing to do, Preserve the Anvil, make Bhelen King.



-Tower of the Magi-

The good thing to do, let the chantry destroy the evil mages. Side with templars.

the right thing to do, Save Wynne, Save the Circle.

The Grey Warden thing to do, Save Wynne, Save the Circle.



-Redcliff-

The good thing to do, save the town, Jowan save the boy.

the Right thing to do, save the town, circle save the boy.

The Grey Warden thing to do, Save Town, Circle Save the Boy. (Alternatively make a deal with the Demon for more power to stop the Blight)



-Landsmeet- (Try to duel Lohgaine with your Dog)

The good thing to do, Alistair kill Lohgaine, banish Anora. Alistair rules alone.

the right thing to do, save Lohgaine, Alistair and Anora Marrry

The Grey Warden thing to do, Save Lohgaine, Alister and Anora Marry.

[ejoslin]

I don't agree with the gray warden thing when it comes to saving redcliff. I think the gray warden thing to do would be the fastest, safest, and within the laws of the land -- kill Connor.

Edit; i'm not sure about making Alistair king is either the good thing to do, nor the gray warden thing to do.  I don't think the gray wardens would actually take one of their own and elevate him to king (makes that neutrality thing difficult).  I also am not sure why you think making Alistair solo king is the good thing to do.  I do agree that the best outcome is probably Alistair+Anora.

I do agree with the rest of your list.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 février 2011 - 04:03 .

[Last Darkness]

ejoslin wrote...

I don't agree with the gray warden thing when it comes to saving redcliff. I think the gray warden thing to do would be the fastest, safest, and within the laws of the land -- kill Connor.

Edit; i'm not sure about making Alistair king is either the good thing to do, nor the gray warden thing to do.  I don't think the gray wardens would actually take one of their own and elevate him to king (makes that neutrality thing difficult).  I also am not sure why you think making Alistair solo king is the good thing to do.  I do agree that the best outcome is probably Alistair+Anora.

I do agree with the rest of your list.

Saving connor benefits the Grey Wardens my making Eamon, and his wife indebted to them and the future Arl Connor owe th Wardens his life. Also though simplest and most effective, killing him would create a enemy out of his mother and the Arl would be in no right mind to command troops from grief.

Well the good thing to do often requires you to take everything you hear at face value as it were. So Lohgaine has to die, also Anora ploted aginst you and betrayed you and tried to have you killed several times. banish Her, Alistair on the Throne alone (Unless your Female Noble, then might as well rule with him).

As for the Grey Warden thing, its touchy since almost all the scenarios can be considered Warden-esque. The fact still remains that unless Alistair is on the Throne, he executed or banished in ferelden. Hes also the legitimate heir to throne so it is his right. The biggest benefit is the fact that Lohgaine is not only made Warden but he brings his vast experince to the War and to the Wardens. Anora is a very compotent leader and Alistair at her side (Mostly in name only) puts the Wardens in a atvantagous situation but does bend the rules. Its the still the best scenario for the War and for Ferelden in general.

Also you will wannt to harden Leilana and Alistair in any scenario thats dosnt fall under the "Good" catagory.

[Joy Divison]

Made Harrowmont King - Even though he may be the stupid choice, Like I said not willing to do little evil for greater good and Harrowmont being a Kinslayer.

How is helping Bhelen evil?  Because he is called a kinslayer by his political enemies?  Because he has forged documents which nevertheless state the truth?

Let Isolde Sacrifice herself - This part im very confused about, I mean it could be considered Evil to Leave Redcliffe with the demon for so long.. keep in mind im not metagaming

classic pragmatism and ends justify the means.  Both the chantry and mages say blood magic is evil.  It's evil.  The White Knight goes to the Circle.  This might be dangerous and unwise because of the risk, but that's the M.O. of White Knights.

Spared Marjolene

I was unaware letting people who murder, commit treason, and torture go free are virtuous acts.  I suppose you let Caladrius (the Tevinter slaver w/ the elves) go free too?

Unsure about Architect.

He should be killed.  Leaving aside the apacolyptic threat he represents, he casually murders people to further his own ambitions and is utterly incapable of comprehending the evil nature and destructive ramifications of his actions.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 08 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[Zombie Chow]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah hes not a dwarf noble, Human noble.. He wouldn't be able to confirm it, just going over majority of public opinion and the note founds in Harrowmonts Quaters.. probably scratch that then lol

Thanks for taking my feedback into account.  I didn't mean to shoot down your point, bro, or appear dismissive in any way.  It's just that, to play the character, we as players have to "un-remember" a lot of information from previous playthroughs or from reading the forum.

Harrowmont vs. Bhelen is a really tough issue.  However, now that I know you're playing a Human Noble, I think he may instinctively lean towards Harrowmont more.  Since your character suffered at the deceptions of Arl Howe, he may be wary of Bhelen's lieutenant just from the "backroom politics" nature of his request.

Regarding Ruck, you don't want to lie to his mother and you don't want to kill him without reason, so I agree with the idea of bringing Oghren or Zevran to prompt you to kill him.  I'm curious if you'll also kill the werewolfed elf as well...but the difference is, with her, she asked to die.

[ejoslin]

Last Darkness wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I don't agree with the gray warden thing when it comes to saving redcliff. I think the gray warden thing to do would be the fastest, safest, and within the laws of the land -- kill Connor.

Edit; i'm not sure about making Alistair king is either the good thing to do, nor the gray warden thing to do.  I don't think the gray wardens would actually take one of their own and elevate him to king (makes that neutrality thing difficult).  I also am not sure why you think making Alistair solo king is the good thing to do.  I do agree that the best outcome is probably Alistair+Anora.

I do agree with the rest of your list.

Saving connor benefits the Grey Wardens my making Eamon, and his wife indebted to them and the future Arl Connor owe th Wardens his life. Also though simplest and most effective, killing him would create a enemy out of his mother and the Arl would be in no right mind to command troops from grief.

Well the good thing to do often requires you to take everything you hear at face value as it were. So Lohgaine has to die, also Anora ploted aginst you and betrayed you and tried to have you killed several times. banish Her, Alistair on the Throne alone (Unless your Female Noble, then might as well rule with him).

As for the Grey Warden thing, its touchy since almost all the scenarios can be considered Warden-esque. The fact still remains that unless Alistair is on the Throne, he executed or banished in ferelden. Hes also the legitimate heir to throne so it is his right. The biggest benefit is the fact that Lohgaine is not only made Warden but he brings his vast experince to the War and to the Wardens. Anora is a very compotent leader and Alistair at her side (Mostly in name only) puts the Wardens in a atvantagous situation but does bend the rules. Its the still the best scenario for the War and for Ferelden in general.

Also you will wannt to harden Leilana and Alistair in any scenario thats dosnt fall under the "Good" catagory.

They're indebted anyway for saving the Arl's life.  I just can't picture Duncan or Riordan leaving a town they just saved at the mercy of the same demon, to go to the place where templars pretty much rule, to ask them to release mages to try to cure an abomination, especially if you did the circle first so you know that they're still cleaning up the aftermath of the last abomination.  You have no clue, without metagaming, that the templars would not dispatch a force immediately to take care of the blood mage AND the abomination.

And no, if Alistair is not on the throne, if you don't spare Loghain, he stays with the Gray Wardens.  In fact, if you don't harden Alistair, that is exactly what he wants.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 février 2011 - 05:32 .

[Zombie Chow]

Last Darkness wrote...

A Perfect Knight is wonderful in Concept and Fantasy but the reality of their actions usualy causes more harm then anything else. Also the game would be unwinable, because you wouldnt be allowed to kill anyone or anything for any reasons or stand by while you watch others do it.
 

I think OP knows this.  The story he's building up is not a Perfect Knight because he knows DA:O is pretty gritty, but a "the road to hell is paved on good intentions" type of character.  He already pointed out how he knows his character will cause unintended consequences, just like the guy from Kingdom of Heaven.

IMHO that's a great character concept, especially for DA:O.  He's a tragic figure.  Sidenote - my favourite character from Kingdom of Heaven was Edward Norton's character.

[Augustei]

Zombie Chow wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

A Perfect Knight is wonderful in Concept and Fantasy but the reality of their actions usualy causes more harm then anything else. Also the game would be unwinable, because you wouldnt be allowed to kill anyone or anything for any reasons or stand by while you watch others do it.
 

I think OP knows this.  The story he's building up is not a Perfect Knight because he knows DA:O is pretty gritty, but a "the road to hell is paved on good intentions" type of character.  He already pointed out how he knows his character will cause unintended consequences, just like the guy from Kingdom of Heaven.

IMHO that's a great character concept, especially for DA:O.  He's a tragic figure.  Sidenote - my favourite character from Kingdom of Heaven was Edward Norton's character.

Yeah King Baldwin, he was actually my favourite to =D

[Last Darkness]

Just metagame it and call it Divine Inspiration "GOD WILLS IT !!!"

[Augustei]

Last Darkness wrote...

Just metagame it and call it Divine Inspiration "GOD WILLS IT !!!"

Lol yeah but then i'd be a Templar like Guy since he and his mob yelled that out. Bailian was no templar =D
Like how you quoted that in there, made me laugh lol

[Augustei]

What should I do about the guy in Soldiers peak, the blood mage that did all those experiments on the surviving wardens? Should I bring high justice.. Would that be considered evil at all? Or should I just let him continue with his experiments as long as he doesn't hurt anyone?

[Mariefoxprice83]

I think the good thing is to help him rather than help demon Sophia? Not sure if you can help him and then kill him afterwards though?

[Augustei]

Yeah you can kill both of them regardless of which you sided with

[ddv.rsa]

XxDeonxX wrote...

What should I do about the guy in Soldiers peak, the blood mage that did all those experiments on the surviving wardens? Should I bring high justice.. Would that be considered evil at all? Or should I just let him continue with his experiments as long as he doesn't hurt anyone?

I suppose killing him would be justice for the wardens he experimented on, but on other hand it would also be a pointless waste of an interesting opportunity. Killing Avernus won't bring those wardens back or change the past. If you let him continue his research, however, the grey wardens could benefit greatly.

Doesn't that serve the greater good more?

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 09 février 2011 - 07:40 .

[Augustei]

ddv.rsa wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

What should I do about the guy in Soldiers peak, the blood mage that did all those experiments on the surviving wardens? Should I bring high justice.. Would that be considered evil at all? Or should I just let him continue with his experiments as long as he doesn't hurt anyone?

I suppose killing him would be justice for the wardens he experimented on, but on other it would also be a pointless waste of an interesting opportunity. Killing Avernus won't bring those wardens back or change the past. If you let him continue his research, however, the grey wardens could benefit greatly.

Doesn't that serve the greater good more?

Yeah but my Warden is not willing to do any evil even if its for a greater good. Thats why he will probably pick Harrowmont over Bhelen unless I decide to just have him act ignorant to the papers being forgeries.

Im just trying to think really what Bailian would do

I mean he follows the same general concept, where he isn't willing to do little evil for greater good. He isn't willing to have Guy and his Knights executed so he can become King. Even though he knows if Guy becomes King he will lead jerusalem to ruin. He still allows it to happen however since he doesn't want to be responsible for the deaths of those knights

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 09 février 2011 - 05:54 .

[shatteredstar56]

XxDeonxX wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

What should I do about the guy in Soldiers peak, the blood mage that did all those experiments on the surviving wardens? Should I bring high justice.. Would that be considered evil at all? Or should I just let him continue with his experiments as long as he doesn't hurt anyone?

I suppose killing him would be justice for the wardens he experimented on, but on other it would also be a pointless waste of an interesting opportunity. Killing Avernus won't bring those wardens back or change the past. If you let him continue his research, however, the grey wardens could benefit greatly.

Doesn't that serve the greater good more?

Yeah but my Warden is not willing to do any evil even if its for a greater good. Thats why he will probably pick Harrowmont over Bhelen unless I decide to just have him act ignorant to the papers being forgeries.

Im just trying to think really what Bailian would do

I mean he follows the same general concept, where he isn't willing to do little evil for greater good. He isn't willing to have Guy and his Knights executed so he can become King. Even though he knows if Guy becomes King he will lead jerusalem to ruin. He still allows it to happen however since he doesn't want to be responsible for the deaths of those knights

Well if you're looking for the immediate good, kill both the demon and Avernus.  He could help the Wardens later, and maybe even provide insight on Morrigan's baby, (if you did that.)

Ignoring the forgeries won't make you good, it'll just mean your character is too naive to look at what he 's handing out. If you're not willing to do anything for the greater good, then you can't pick Bhelen.

[ddv.rsa]

If it helps your decision, Bioware did consider Harrowmont to be the "good" option in Orzammar (based on character notes in the toolset).

[LobselVith8]

antigravitycat wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If you upgrade Vigil's Keep, though, your friends can hold off the darkspawn and both areas will survive.

Hm, that is strange, because I paid the highest price and told Voldrik to build the best defenses and when saving Amaranthine I still got the messages that all companions unfortunately died. I found that disturbing, very much... "I pity the siege crew trying to breach these walls"... right, didn't help at all. :shrug:

Did you get the achievement? It should show up if the Vigil is fully upgraded, so all the companions (save one unless he's brought with you) will live after the siege.

antigravitycat wrote...

Well it does not matter what the Chantry says, they are not the beacon of all truth and goodness in all cases after all, we know that. True that if Connor would stay possessed he would be a big threat and it would be best to take him out. To say the least, what he did since being an abomination didn't cover himself in glory. But you know from Jowan that Connor can be saved and without Blood Magic and without killing anybody. And in the end when you head to the Circle Irving will agree and take the chance to free the child from the grasp of the demon. Letting Jowan enter the Fade will let him redeem himself, he also seems very willing to do that. By that you save the lives and offer redemtion to Jowan, Isolde will have to let go of Connor who will be sent to the Circle. Clearing things up and getting the most fair treatment for all people who are involved. Considering the circumstances this is the best you can get out of it I think.

Jowan also finds redemption if you let him go (in the bugged quest Jowan's Intention that requires a mod to access since the vanilla game will never trigger it properly).

ejoslin wrote...

I don't agree with the gray warden thing when it comes to saving redcliff. I think the gray warden thing to do would be the fastest, safest, and within the laws of the land -- kill Connor.

Edit; i'm not sure about making Alistair king is either the good thing to do, nor the gray warden thing to do.  I don't think the gray wardens would actually take one of their own and elevate him to king (makes that neutrality thing difficult).  I also am not sure why you think making Alistair solo king is the good thing to do.  I do agree that the best outcome is probably Alistair+Anora.

I do agree with the rest of your list.

I think it depends. Riordan mentions that some Wardens in the Anderfels like the power they have because their King is weak. The First Warden clearly wants Amaranthine to succeed because of the implications it can have for Wardens across Thedas, from what Mistress Woolsey reveals (and I'm certain he'd be thrilled with the fact that Alistair has become King, and possibly Loghain as well given his reputation). However, I believe DG has said Duncan wouldn't have chosen Alistair to be King, who often tries to keep in line with the general idea of Grey Wardens being neutral (like in the City Elf Origin).

ejoslin wrote...

They're indebted anyway for saving the Arl's life.  I just can't picture Duncan or Riordan leaving a town they just saved at the mercy of the same demon, to go to the place where templars pretty much rule, to ask them to release mages to try to cure an abomination, especially if you did the circle first so you know that they're still cleaning up the aftermath of the last abomination.  You have no clue, without metagaming, that the templars would not dispatch a force immediately to take care of the blood mage AND the abomination.

I suppose a Warden from the Circle of Ferelden might know that Irving could be willing, but it is a huge risk, even if you assume Wynne and Morrigan stay behind to keep things safe. I agree that Duncan and Riordan likely wouldn't make such a decision, but Connor's undead army is gone and any remaining undead can be dispatched with a sweep of the house. I like the resolution of mages saving the day given Isolde's anti-mage views and how badly things will go for Jowan if he's handed over to the Chantry controlled Circle, even if I have to admit that it's such a dangerous risk for anyone to take.