127 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

Blansten wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Actually, it is not fact that any virus would even work. All testing has been done on small scale groups of Geth, not an entire collective. The Geth have enough computing power between them to beat anything, and their super structure, even partly completed, would be more powerful than the rest of the galaxy's computers combined. Even the Reaper virus is not absolute, and is actually the easiest of them all to beat.
Anyway, no. Killing an entire race and replacing them with slaves is so far beyond evil that it is no where close to Renegade. That option should never even be presented because of how blatently evil it is. Renegade was suposed to be about getting the job done, making the hard choices. Not killing trillions of sentient beings in order to turn them into slaves to make humans the rulers of the galaxy... What has happened to this game...

This. The idea of enslaving a sentient group to serve our own needs is not a Renegade choice it is a Sith choice and belongs in a different game ... The Old Republic maybe.

I always thought the sith were more interesting then the Jedi! YES IM A SITH!

[Stryfe16]

V-rex wrote...

.... aaaaaaannnnd any argument you guys ever had to demonize the geth for 'not trusting' organics just fell down fifty three stories and landed on its head.

No, I would NOT enslave them. They are machines, but they are also sentient, capable of complex thought and are eager to learn about the galaxy as well as developing genuine signs of emotion. Geth are not just mindless drones or tools to be used. Not anymore, and I'm actually kind of disgusted that people talk about them as such.

I see no reason why the Geth wouldn't be willing to help Shepard in the fight against the Reapers, Legion came along for that exact reason. The Geth have just as much to lose if the Reapers win as any other race in the galaxy, and they know that. Hence I see no reason why we have to brainwash them or enslave them at all.
They are ready and willing, if Legion is any indication, I'd rather see them join us because of free will, not because we forced them to.

Brainwashing and enslavement is NOT a justifiable thing to do. And I know that I'm a paragon so my opinion might be coming from an admitted philanthropic bias but still here's a logical reason to go with it as well:
The Geth would fight back. Any attempt to brainwash a race on as massive a scale as the population of the True Geth would only result in the complete destruction of the people trying to do it. If billions of Quarians couldn't succeed at doing it, what honest chance do you think you have?
The Geth would fight back, having now learned once and for all that they should only ever regard organics with fear and distrust.

All that we will have done is lost a potential ally against the Reapers and permenantly destroyed an entire race in the process, I don't care what stance anyone makes about them being 'ideal storm troopers'... they can be 'ideal storm troopers' who sided with us willingly you know.

Ah, V-Rex you pretty much stated everything I felt as well, why bother alienating one of your strongest possible allies? Seems pretty evil to enslave a race that is sentient and most likely more than willing to assist you in your endeavors against the Reapers. The Geth stand to lose as much to the Reapers as every other race in the galaxy.

*Edit for spelling error.

Modifié par Stryfe16, 08 février 2011 - 02:09 .

[Pro_Consul]

My Renegade Shep would not try this, just based on a simple risk/reward analysis. If I fail, I am risking creating a second overpowering enemy. And if I succeed I have no guarantee that the Geth will even be able to do anything useful. After all, if I am able to figure out how to reprogram the Geth to serve me, why would I believe the Reapers would not be able to do the same thing and just make the Geth switch sides against me. Nope, if they want to help, great, I take them as allies. But I am not going to risk making them enemies while I am still trying to deal with an even bigger enemy threat.

Edit: at least I won't do it unless I have some extremely reliable way of knowing that it will work and that it will not be able to be undone by the next ruthless bastage that comes along (like a Reaper).

James2912 wrote...

I also think people are forgetting we already brainwashed the Geth once by giving the Heretic Geth a virus that will make them no longer be hertetics. We've already done this before to suit our needs.

But we do not yet know if that even worked. And with no Reaper-built quantum memory thingummy we lack the ability to do it again.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 02:14 .

[Stryfe16]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Technically you can enslave them as much as the next toaster. So why not. Don't even need to be Renegade.

Considering the Geth are not toasters, or anything like toasters either in utility or function, would strongly disagree. The Geth are sentient, thinking creatures, on the cusp of genuine emotion. It's hard to support any of your arguments merely having listened to everything Legion has said. The Geth, most likely are going to side with Shepard, as obviously the Reapers are going to slaughter everything, Geth included. Enslaving the Geth, if either done by humanity or quarians is a silly notion at best that helps doom the galaxy at worst, and alienates a very strong potential ally at best.

[James2912]

Pro_Consul wrote...

My Renegade Shep would not try this, just based on a simple risk/reward analysis. If I fail, I am risking creating a second overpowering enemy. And if I succeed I have no guarantee that the Geth will even be able to do anything useful. After all, if I am able to figure out how to reprogram the Geth to serve me, why would I believe the Reapers would not be able to do the same thing and just make the Geth switch sides against me. Nope, if they want to help, great, I take them as allies. But I am not going to risk making them enemies while I am still trying to deal with an even bigger enemy threat. 

James2912 wrote...

I also think people are forgetting we already brainwashed the Geth once by giving the Heretic Geth a virus that will make them no longer be hertetics. We've already done this before to suit our needs.

But we do not yet know if that even worked. And with no Reaper-built quantum memory thingummy we lack the ability to do it again.

Very intelligent and respectable decision. I like your reply better than saying its evil! However I would still try it in the game if given the decision. Its my opinion that its a matter of time before the Quarians  or the Reapers do it. The Geth's days at sentience are numbered whether I like it or not.  Its like dare I say it nuclear weapons you can choose not to build them cuz its "evil" but its only a matter of time before your enemy does.

[jbblue05]

Stryfe16 wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Technically you can enslave them as much as the next toaster. So why not. Don't even need to be Renegade.

Considering the Geth are not toasters, or anything like toasters either in utility or function, would strongly disagree. The Geth are sentient, thinking creatures, on the cusp of genuine emotion. It's hard to support any of your arguments merely having listened to everything Legion has said. The Geth, most likely are going to side with Shepard, as obviously the Reapers are going to slaughter everything, Geth included. Enslaving the Geth, if either done by humanity or quarians is a silly notion at best that helps doom the galaxy at worst, and alienates a very strong potential ally at best.

The Geth are desklamps with AI porgramming..

They're billions of Geth and Legion only represent slighly over a 1,000.

The Geth could easily come to the conclusion that they're best bet for survival is to side with the Reapers.
Legion could easily be a  Heretic trying to trick Shepard into brain washing the "bad Geth" thus you're helping the Reapers.

But I'm guessing Bioware isn't going to screw people over like that.
.

[Vaenier]

You know, it took the Heretics over 2 years [how long has it been since Sovereign recruited them?] using advanced Reapers technology in order to make a virus to hack them, and even then, it was only capable of subtly modifying very core files. The Heretics are Geth experts. They know exactly how to hack them. Really, what chance is there anybody else could even get close. Most you will do is kick the hornets nest.

[Stryfe16]

jbblue05 wrote...

Stryfe16 wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Technically you can enslave them as much as the next toaster. So why not. Don't even need to be Renegade.

Considering the Geth are not toasters, or anything like toasters either in utility or function, would strongly disagree. The Geth are sentient, thinking creatures, on the cusp of genuine emotion. It's hard to support any of your arguments merely having listened to everything Legion has said. The Geth, most likely are going to side with Shepard, as obviously the Reapers are going to slaughter everything, Geth included. Enslaving the Geth, if either done by humanity or quarians is a silly notion at best that helps doom the galaxy at worst, and alienates a very strong potential ally at best.

The Geth are desklamps with AI porgramming..

They're billions of Geth and Legion only represent slighly over a 1,000.

The Geth could easily come to the conclusion that they're best bet for survival is to side with the Reapers.
Legion could easily be a  Heretic trying to trick Shepard into brain washing the "bad Geth" thus you're helping the Reapers.

But I'm guessing Bioware isn't going to screw people over like that.
.

Legion may have only 1,183 programs built into him, but that's because he is essentially the spokesman for the entire Geth race at this point. His platform was made for that task specifically, enlisting Shepard's aid against the Heretic Geth, and indirectly against the Reapers, as Geth believe in self-determination. Logic would dictate fighting against the Reapers, merely because the Geth realize they will not survive the oncoming Reaper invasion.

[James2912]

How is it logical to fight an enemy that has been undefeated in millions of years? Especially when that enemy will spare you if you don't fight.

[V-rex]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I actually think the Geth should be under Quarian control. I'm not saying do it through war I mean under the cover of peace. The Quarians should propose peace with the Geth, but only to get closer and not be attacked on sight. The next part (which may take awhile due to developing the technology), would be to secretly expose the Geth to a virus that gets rid of their sentience and returns them to their original purpose: cheap labor. I think that is how it should end.

That's just.... terrible. Monstrous, heartless, cruel and despicable.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Quarians should go in under the pretense of peace, let those poor trusting Geth welcome them back onto the planet (that they have been maintaining for them no less) and then even though all conflicts are over, they should try to release a virus to destroy Geth sentience anyway?

That's even worse then just destroying them all in a war, because here the Quarians are willingly deciding to destroy them even though they haven't shown any signs of hostility, instead just wanting to turn them back into mindless drones for the Quarian's own convienience basically.
Man that's just.... evil.

Yes the Geth are different to organics, that doesn't mean you have the right to do stuff like that. As a side note, again, the virus might not be effective against the current Geth and the Geth would figure out what was going on really early on either during the virus's development or when the Quarians implement it against them... and they'll resist and they'll fight back (again) and the the 17 million Quarians would be reduced to zero.

And do you know what? If those were the circumstances of how the last of the Quarians got destroyed, I'd call that a one hundred percent positive result. Because clearly, the Qurians had no justification whatsover.

[jbblue05]

James2912 wrote...

How is it logical to fight an enemy that has been undefeated in millions of years? Especially when that enemy will spare you if you don't fight.

This.

Geht are logic based not emotional based

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

How is it logical to fight an enemy that has been undefeated in millions of years? Especially when that enemy will spare you if you don't fight.

Ahhh, but that last sentence contains the huge sticking point. Who is around today to testify as to how generous the surrender terms were that they got from the Reapers? The Keepers? Collectors?

I strongly suspect that the Geth logic routines would come to a screeching halt right about there.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 08 février 2011 - 02:32 .

[V-rex]

James2912 wrote...

How is it logical to fight an enemy that has been undefeated in millions of years? Especially when that enemy will spare you if you don't fight.

How do you know that the enemy will spare you though? I mean Soveriegn considered the Heretic Geth as little more than tools and apparently indoctrinated them (in one way or another) to do the Reaper's bidding. Then later we see the Heretics trying to do the same thing to the True Geth to make them all Heretics.
Maybe the Geth don't want to be MADE the Reapers soldiers, after all they want to 'build their own future'.

Plus, Legion said very clearly that the Geth are just as much at risk as any other race from the Reapers. Regardless of whether they fight or not, I don't think the Reapers would suddenly 'empathise' with them just for being machines.

[Stryfe16]

Was about to say, there was no guarantee the Reapers would spare you, and even if they did in the beginning, it would only be to use you, and then discard you. Like V-Rex said, Reapers are a threat to all. Even with that, the Geth are following the path of self-determination, which is the complete opposite of what the Reapers offer, and the complete opposite of what the Reapers will give.

[jbblue05]

I think the Geth are going to take a wait-and-see approach on the reaper invasion.

[James2912]

New Question: How do you know the reapers the most advanced species in the galaxy won't just brainwash the Geth? We know they can do this to organics although it takes a lot longer, according to what legion said the virus could do.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

V-rex wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I actually think the Geth should be under Quarian control. I'm not saying do it through war I mean under the cover of peace. The Quarians should propose peace with the Geth, but only to get closer and not be attacked on sight. The next part (which may take awhile due to developing the technology), would be to secretly expose the Geth to a virus that gets rid of their sentience and returns them to their original purpose: cheap labor. I think that is how it should end.

That's just.... terrible. Monstrous, heartless, cruel and despicable.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Quarians should go in under the pretense of peace, let those poor trusting Geth welcome them back onto the planet (that they have been maintaining for them no less) and then even though all conflicts are over, they should try to release a virus to destroy Geth sentience anyway?

That's even worse then just destroying them all in a war, because here the Quarians are willingly deciding to destroy them even though they haven't shown any signs of hostility, instead just wanting to turn them back into mindless drones for the Quarian's own convienience basically.
Man that's just.... evil.

Yes the Geth are different to organics, that doesn't mean you have the right to do stuff like that. As a side note, again, the virus might not be effective against the current Geth and the Geth would figure out what was going on really early on either during the virus's development or when the Quarians implement it against them... and they'll resist and they'll fight back (again) and the the 17 million Quarians would be reduced to zero.

And do you know what? If those were the circumstances of how the last of the Quarians got destroyed, I'd call that a one hundred percent positive result. Because clearly, the Qurians had no justification whatsover.

Trojan horse, my friend.

[V-rex]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Trojan horse, my friend.

Yeah I know about the Trojan horse.
Frankly I thought that was a defining historical moment of 'dick moves'. I'd argue that this situatution would be as well.

[Stryfe16]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

V-rex wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I actually think the Geth should be under Quarian control. I'm not saying do it through war I mean under the cover of peace. The Quarians should propose peace with the Geth, but only to get closer and not be attacked on sight. The next part (which may take awhile due to developing the technology), would be to secretly expose the Geth to a virus that gets rid of their sentience and returns them to their original purpose: cheap labor. I think that is how it should end.

That's just.... terrible. Monstrous, heartless, cruel and despicable.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Quarians should go in under the pretense of peace, let those poor trusting Geth welcome them back onto the planet (that they have been maintaining for them no less) and then even though all conflicts are over, they should try to release a virus to destroy Geth sentience anyway?

That's even worse then just destroying them all in a war, because here the Quarians are willingly deciding to destroy them even though they haven't shown any signs of hostility, instead just wanting to turn them back into mindless drones for the Quarian's own convienience basically.
Man that's just.... evil.

Yes the Geth are different to organics, that doesn't mean you have the right to do stuff like that. As a side note, again, the virus might not be effective against the current Geth and the Geth would figure out what was going on really early on either during the virus's development or when the Quarians implement it against them... and they'll resist and they'll fight back (again) and the the 17 million Quarians would be reduced to zero.

And do you know what? If those were the circumstances of how the last of the Quarians got destroyed, I'd call that a one hundred percent positive result. Because clearly, the Qurians had no justification whatsover.

Trojan horse, my friend.

We know what tactic it is, the point is, is that doing something like this would prove the quarians are the most caprcious, self-serving, and despicable race in the galaxy. If this tactic failed and quarians ended up extinct, I'm not sure I would be capable of sympathizing with them. The quarians are a people stuck in the past, and the idea of them essentially destroying a sentient race for their own convenience is morally repugnant.

[James2912]

The Trojans were wiped out though, so the Greeks did get the last laugh. All the Trojans have is a condom named after them.

Modifié par James2912, 08 février 2011 - 02:49 .

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

New Question: How do you know the reapers the most advanced species in the galaxy won't just brainwash the Geth? We know they can do this to organics although it takes a lot longer, according to what legion said the virus could do.

We don't. That's the sad fact. Fortunately the Geth are now wise to the possibility, so one can hope they are strengthening their mental defenses against such stuff. Not much Shep can do about it either way, however, except to watch his back like always.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

V-rex wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Trojan horse, my friend.

Yeah I know about the Trojan horse.
Frankly I thought that was a defining historical moment of 'dick moves'. I'd argue that this situatution would be as well.

I wasn't saying you didn't know, I'm saying that's what my plan was going for.

[Dean_the_Young]

James2912 wrote...

The Trojans were wiped out though, so the Greeks did get the last laugh. All the Trojans have is a condom named after them.

Yeah, but the greeks have... greece.

[James2912]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

James2912 wrote...

The Trojans were wiped out though, so the Greeks did get the last laugh. All the Trojans have is a condom named after them.

Yeah, but the greeks have... greece.

I'm going to wait a little while to see if there are any greeks on here before I say touche