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[caradoc2000]

Persephone wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

In Awakening, Justice and Sigrun were OK while Oghren and Velanna were tolerable.

I always hang Nathaniel and give Anders to the templars.

But...but....WHY? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Anders is a dangerous apostate and a smarta** to boot and Nathaniel is a Howe.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 08 février 2011 - 08:55 .

[IanPolaris]

caradoc2000 wrote...
Anders is a dangerous apostate and a smarta** to boot and Nathaniel is a Howe.

Anders nearly singlehandedly killed of a group of darkspawn that killed the Templars guarding him, and it's pretty clear when you first meet him that the Templars did try to defend Anders and themselves from the Darkspawn.  In short, Anders is not a dangerous murderer that Ryloc would have you believe (not that he loves Templars, but that's not the same thing as being a murderer).  He also willingly and very capably helps you every step of the way.  As for Nathaniel, if you kill him just for being a Howe then how are you any better than his father Rendon Howe?  If he betrays you, then sure, but to kill him just because he's a Howe seems extreme......

-Polaris

[caradoc2000]

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders nearly singlehandedly killed of a group of darkspawn that killed the Templars guarding him, and it's pretty clear when you first meet him that the Templars did try to defend Anders and themselves from the Darkspawn.  In short, Anders is not a dangerous murderer that Ryloc would have you believe (not that he loves Templars, but that's not the same thing as being a murderer).  He also willingly and very capably helps you every step of the way. 

How do we know it wasn't Anders who killed the templars first and then the darkspawn? There is something fishy about a guy who escaped justice that many times.

As for Nathaniel, if you kill him just for being a Howe then how are you any better than his father Rendon Howe?

Basic physics: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Howe killed the whole Cousland family, so it is only fair that a Cousland kills the whole Howe family. He even said to the Arl he would kill the rest of the Howes as well. I would have executed Delilah and her husband too had it been possible.

[IanPolaris]

caradoc2000 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders nearly singlehandedly killed of a group of darkspawn that killed the Templars guarding him, and it's pretty clear when you first meet him that the Templars did try to defend Anders and themselves from the Darkspawn.  In short, Anders is not a dangerous murderer that Ryloc would have you believe (not that he loves Templars, but that's not the same thing as being a murderer).  He also willingly and very capably helps you every step of the way. 

How do we know it wasn't Anders who killed the templars first and then the darkspawn? There is something fishy about a guy who escaped justice that many times.

I would call the Circle Tower and the Templars many things and with many descriptive words.  Justice would not be one of them.  As for 'fishy', not really.  In WWII there were prisoners that were so adept at escaping that the Germans built special stalags for such prisoners but otherwise treated them as PoWs (except for a couple of brutal exceptions by the SS not the regular military) because they (the POWs) weren't murders and didn't act like them.  They were escape risks.

Same with Anders.  From the Templar perspective, he's an escape risk sure, but hardly a maleficar.  As for Templars dying, look at the body positions during that cut scene. It's pretty clear that the two templars were at 10 and 2 o'clock guard positions vis a vis Anders when they went down.  The Templars died fighting Darkspawn in the line of duty.

As for Nathaniel, if you kill him just for being a Howe then how are you any better than his father Rendon Howe?

Basic physics: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Howe killed the whole Cousland family, so it is only fair that a Cousland kills the whole Howe family. He even said to the Arl he would kill the rest of the Howes as well. I would have executed Delilah and her husband too had it been possible.

This is how neverending feuds are started and maintained.  By the same logic then, any surviving Howe should kill any Cousland on sight as well, and on and on.....  No, far wiser to kill people for what they do rather than who they are.  If Nate tries to kill you later, then shame on him, but don't assume......

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

This is how neverending feuds are started and maintained.  By the same logic then, any surviving Howe should kill any Cousland on sight as well, and on and on.....  No, far wiser to kill people for what they do rather than who they are.  If Nate tries to kill you later, then shame on him, but don't assume......

-Polaris

Nathaniel admits that he came to Vigil's Keep planning to kill the Warden. He says he had a change of heart but we can't be sure he is telling the truth. If you let him go or even make him a Warden there's a chance he may take another shot at you (well, without metagaming one might think so). This decision is a bit like whether to let Zevran live.

As for his family I agree that killing every Howe is extreme. But if I didn't recruit  Nathaniel I would be inclined to exile them, given the chance. 

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

This is how neverending feuds are started and maintained.  By the same logic then, any surviving Howe should kill any Cousland on sight as well, and on and on.....  No, far wiser to kill people for what they do rather than who they are.  If Nate tries to kill you later, then shame on him, but don't assume......

-Polaris

Nathaniel admits that he came to Vigil's Keep planning to kill the Warden. He says he had a change of heart but we can't be sure he is telling the truth. If you let him go or even make him a Warden there's a chance he may take another shot at you (well, without metagaming one might think so). This decision is a bit like whether to let Zevran live.

As for his family I agree that killing every Howe is extreme. But if I didn't recruit  Nathaniel I would be inclined to exile them, given the chance. 

No, it's not really like letting Zev live (which I seldom do).  In Zev's case he was quite openly and with aforethought trying to give you a serious case of the 'deads".  Do that to my wardens, and you'd better have your life insurance paid up.  Nate was caught breaking and entering.  We only have his unsupported word that he might want to kill us and then changed his mind.  Executing someone based on that is IMHO a mistake.

However, letting him go with his demonstrated skills is also an unreasonable risk and he WAS caught breaking and entering red handed, and we know (from the testimony of the guards and even the Seneschal) that Nate is extremely skilled and the Grey Wardens are in dire need of recruits.  Thus the joining.  It's not like Nate can become untainted even if he survives which means he will be under my aegis for the immediate future.  If he betrays me, then shame on him (for a very short time).  If not, then I get a skilled warden that I desperately need.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

I like Velanna. She's multi purpose. She's a mage and in emergencies she doubles as a flotation device.

[Corker]

My Cousland heard her out to see if she'd show any remorse; when that was a 'no,' arrest proved impossible.

My Mahariel recruited her, and I kept her in the party a good bit.  Even playing another Dalish, I wasn't too fond of her.

Mostly, I was disappointed.  It seemed like a great opportunity to show, rather than tell, the trials the Dalish are supposed to face at the hands of the humans.  She could have been a vicious but still somewhat sympathetic freedom fighter who'd been tricked into atrocities beyond the pale... and if maybe she didn't fall down and weep for the loss right away, a response *somewhat* more morally-tempered than "it makes me feel warm and fuzzy" would have been nice.

Instead, we get a caricature that just emphasizes how wrong, wrong, wrong the Dalish are to think badly of the lovely lovely humans, who would be happy to just get along if the Dalish would just stop being so angry.  (Oh, and learn their place and go and live in the Alienages where they belong.)

[fkirenicus]

Apart from the fact that she has a personality that makes Morrigan seem like an angel, I have no special opinion on Velanna.
Guess that says more than I'd like to admit, hehe. :-)

[antigravitycat]

fkirenicus wrote...

Apart from the fact that she has a personality that makes Morrigan seem like an angel, I have no special opinion on Velanna.
Guess that says more than I'd like to admit, hehe. :-)

Hmm, I was just going to type that Velanna was more of an angel in comparison to Morrigan. At least Velanna has a reason to be mean - to humans- while Morrigan is just a screwed up product of Flemeth' abominal education.

Either way, I think they are both very sad inside, they were hurt very much and turn to be "tough" while still very broken inside, that's a typical reaction, many people do that. But I got the impression that Velanna is not that much "beyond repair" as Morrigan.

Modifié par antigravitycat, 28 février 2011 - 01:48 .

[sylvanaerie]

I played a Queen Cousland, expecting to kill Nate when I met him. She was a templar as well, but neither Nate nor Anders were tossed away.
She did however, send Oghren packing as his drunken deadbeat dad bit hit far too many personal cords for me.
Velanna's comment about the murders making her feel 'warm and fuzzy' doomed her on my next playthrough and she died at the first face to face.
I just did another one this time recruiting everyone (though Oghren, Velanna and Justice pretty much stayed in VK, I did do Justice's personal quest).
Unrepentant psychotic murderers who get the 'warm and fuzzies' from killing innocents aren't exactly my favorite people to hang out with. Nor could I stand her strident, harpy voice to talk to her beyond what i had to when it came time to dole out gifts to her.
She ended up disappearing during the epilogue when a wall collapsed on her and since the epilogue slide said the Pilgrim's Path suffered no further attacks (I killed the Architect too) I'm gonna count it as she may have actually learned her lesson or at least taken her fight to those who truly deserved it.

[Eber]

Velanna does not get warm and fuzzy from killing innocent people. She refuses to answer Nathaniel and makes a sarcastic comment to make that clear. I don't blame her for it. Nathaniel's question does not encourage a serious answer.

Nathaniel: How do you feel knowing you murdered all those people because you were too arrogant to check your facts?
Velanna: Warm and fuzzy. [Read: None of your business]

[TJPags]

I liked Velanna.

I just finished another Awakening run. Liked her even more.

She's sarcastic, and self-righteous, and non-apologetic, but anyone as self concious as she is about her ears isn't all bad.

Wish I could have gotten her quest to trigger.

[Undeff]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I always hang Nathaniel and give Anders to the templars.

... Jesus. Always? I guess it's because I've mainly kept Nathaniel and Anders on my side, and then Justice later when I "free" him, but always hang?

Haha, and I thought I was cruel to Alistair.

Modifié par Undeff, 01 mars 2011 - 05:10 .

[war4n0th1n9]

Eber wrote...

Nathaniel: How do you feel knowing you murdered all those people because you were too arrogant to check your facts?
Velanna: Warm and fuzzy. [Read: None of your business]

I have got to bring a party around to hear this. To be honest I never pay attention to party members either in Origins or Awakening. A mage is a mage if I bring him/her with me they will be holding position and have haste active. But to hear them talk or care about them? Nope.
When meeting Valenna I did want to kill her but got the option to recruit and decided to do it, thought there would be a good personal quest that would get me to kill more people and add to the kill count, but sadly no.
Bottom line, Valenna as a mage useful as for liking, it's just a magic stick, we all need those sometimes not necessarily in need of liking them.

[Esbatty]

Velanna is just the right amount of trouble to make me wish I could romance her.

[Dark Specie]

Hmm, I don't have too much of a positive view on her, even if I'm not among her haters. But, as someone else have said, she doesn't give you a lot to work with and she shows few traits, except for the ending where she's described as saving a village without even sneering once.. .But it's only a little. Heck, even her own clan described her as "troublesome" at best, a "poisonous influence" at worst...  

Pity that her her "progress" influence-wise isn't more like Nathaniel's . After all, as you get more influence with him, he admits that he was wrong, that he should have investigated further before assuming right away that his father wasn't the bad guy, etc... Nothing such for Velannna, sadly.

[Nezahoo]

Oghren was having an heavy headpain after alot of drinking and Vela gave him an Anti dote to help cure his headic.

But then theres not really much deept to any of the charathers in DA;A
You barely get to scratch the surface of any of em.
But then i play my Wardens in Duncans image.

I found myself scraching my head woundering why they bring back viconia. I mean, Shave of the Edges and you pretty much have Viconia there and not being able to romance her?

[Slunko]

Still regret I dint kill Velanna when I had the chance... I'm actualy considering loading back 5 hours just to get rid of her.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I like Velanna, personally, or at least the idea of her. I haven't played Awakening, so I don't quite know.

Velanna goes through a lot of personal growth because of her interaction with The Warden (if the protagonist choses to befriend her), she can change her views on certain issues, and she can even defend a village of humans from the darkspawn on her own. I can understand why some people might dislike her, but I think the plight of the People and the discrimination that elves face in human society would wear on even the best of people. I was willing to give her a chance to prove herself in the Wardens, and I even gave the same chance to Nathaniel - who I forcibly conscripted to the order because I thought he had potential to be a great addition to the Wardens.

That said, Velanna disappears at Vigil's Keep (which was fully upgraded). I brought Justice, Nathaniel, and Sigrun with my Warden-Commander because I killed the Architect, but given Nathaniel's quest in Dragon Age II (and what he says if the Architect was killed), it's possible that Velanna found Seranni (who seemed to be parenting the few remaining sentient' darkspawn the Architect 'awakened' with his research).

[Lintanis]

 Plus she is good to wind up 

[Angrywolves]

I liked her as well.Doubt she will be in the new game and I find that rather sad.