161 réponses à ce sujet

[Wynne]

With Merrill and Isabela, I found it weird at first, but then again it makes sense for them to travel. The Dalish move around, and so do pirates. As to Anders, if he's a spirit healer or even if he just faked his own death, then all bets are off. And unlike Nathan, he didn't have such a connection to the Warden that it would feel wrong for him to form a stronger connection with someone else. I never felt we really got to know Anders in Awakening, not fully. So I actually don't see a problem with any of those when I really think about it. The choices seem well thought-out to me.

Two likely-to-travel cameos from very different parts of DAO and one expansion character from Amaranthine who was basically indicated to be in Kirkwall come back? When you break it down, where's the big improbability in that?

Modifié par Wynne, 08 février 2011 - 01:21 .

[connorthedragonslayer]

Felfenix wrote...

This really shows that people will complain no matter what... Everyone was complaining that there wasn't enough from Origins. Now everyone's complaining there's too much from Origins. The forum has complained about everything from every end of the spectrum, and the game isn't even out yet.

*Complains about you complaining about people complaining*

But yah I agree with what your saying. For every 2 people who say we don't have any info there are another 2 who say that we know too much etc.

Also, I never met Merril in DA:O. She is a completely new character to me. And like..you spoke to Isabella for like..3 minutes, its not like Anora coming back to join your party or something.

Modifié par connorthedragonslayer, 08 février 2011 - 01:21 .

[WingsandRings]

Felfenix wrote...

This really shows that people will complain no matter what... Everyone was complaining that there wasn't enough from Origins. Now everyone's complaining there's too much from Origins. The forum has complained about everything from every end of the spectrum, and the game isn't even out yet.

Exactly!

Two months ago: "whine whine I want a sequel! I don't feel like those stories were wrapped up! I want all the same characters back.  Not having any of the same characters makes it feel likea  totally different game.  Boo hoo hoo."

Now: "Too many characters are back from the first one! I thought you said this wasn't a sequel! I don't want a sequel! I want all new characters! What is this, the exact same game? Boo hoo hoo."

Seriously, folks.  <_<

[Iberius]

I would say Origins was simply the prequel to a much bigger story. The fact that character from DA2 were introduced into DAO isn't a problem at all.

For example what would the LotR be without Bilbo, Elrond, Gollum, and Gandalf. They were introduced in an expansive story just to be brought back in an even more expansive story. Seems to me that just b/c they've been involved in a story doesn't mean they can't be in another story.

People who have a knack of getting themselves involved in major events do have a way of constantly reappearing in just about every story on the planet.

Modifié par Iberius, 08 février 2011 - 02:54 .

[Dan_cw]

You know, just reading through the threads now on the forum and I should be working. Why aren't I? I guess it's because it's amusing how people can find the smallest things to complain about (this isn't saying there are no valid complaints).

I think that, when the game gets released, I'm just going to take a breather from hanging around the game's forums, especially as my work partly depends on playing the game. Basically, there'll be a tonne of complaints too when the game gets released. Saw it happen with Mass Effect 2 and basically any other game out there.

Some complaints are valid, some are stupid and some aren't even real complaints because of trolling. Even if every single complaint were valid and not an attempt at trolling, the developers simply cannot cater to absolutely everyone.

Modifié par Dan_cw, 08 février 2011 - 03:10 .

[JasonPogo]

WingsandRings wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

This really shows that people will complain no matter what... Everyone was complaining that there wasn't enough from Origins. Now everyone's complaining there's too much from Origins. The forum has complained about everything from every end of the spectrum, and the game isn't even out yet.

Exactly!

Two months ago: "whine whine I want a sequel! I don't feel like those stories were wrapped up! I want all the same characters back.  Not having any of the same characters makes it feel likea  totally different game.  Boo hoo hoo."

Now: "Too many characters are back from the first one! I thought you said this wasn't a sequel! I don't want a sequel! I want all new characters! What is this, the exact same game? Boo hoo hoo."

Seriously, folks.  <_<

Ok again I never said any of those things. I do not want another game with my Warden in it.  So you read a post by someone else that wanted the Warden.  What dose that have to do with me or my thread?

Then to everyone else who is saying wait and see they will have a good story.  That is not the point.  I NEVER said Bioware would do a bad job with them.  Hell I will prob like them all.  The point is Bioware has made a point of saying this is a new story with a new Hero.  When a hero that had nothing to do with the Warden keeps running into people that knew the Warden in a whole dif country it makes the world shrink.  I have no doubt David and the other writers will make up great storys for all the companions.  They will just be doing it in a very confined space.

[Alodar]

JasonPogo wrote...

The point is Bioware has made a point of saying this is a new story with a new Hero.  When a hero that had nothing to do with the Warden keeps running into people that knew the Warden in a whole dif country it makes the world shrink.  I have no doubt David and the other writers will make up great storys for all the companions.  They will just be doing it in a very confined space.

You've obviously never heard of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon (Also see The Oracle of Bacon .)

Even in our frighteningly over-populated world it is trivial to connect folks.

The Warden, has travelled Ostegar, the Circle, Redcliffe, the Brecilian Forest, Denerim, and even Lothering itself. For those keeping score that would be all the major settlements surrounding the village where Hawke was raised, not to mention that the Warden visited there as well.

Why do you find it odd that Hawke can encounter someone our Warden played cards with in a bar? Is it odd that if Hawke encounters the Dalish clan that Hawke would meet people the Dalish Warden would know? Does it really stretch the imagination that Hawke could meet up with some one who was briefly a companion of our well travelled warden?

It would be fairly unrealistic to assume, considering the population of Ferelden, that Hawke and our well travelled warden would exist in mutually exclusive circles.


Alodar

[Talon_Wu]

JasonPogo wrote...

Ok again I never said any of those things. I do not want another game with my Warden in it.  So you read a post by someone else that wanted the Warden.  What dose that have to do with me or my thread?

Then to everyone else who is saying wait and see they will have a good story.  That is not the point.  I NEVER said Bioware would do a bad job with them.  Hell I will prob like them all.  The point is Bioware has made a point of saying this is a new story with a new Hero.  When a hero that had nothing to do with the Warden keeps running into people that knew the Warden in a whole dif country it makes the world shrink.  I have no doubt David and the other writers will make up great storys for all the companions.  They will just be doing it in a very confined space.

Thedas subscibes to the six degrees of separation theory, obviously.

Seriously, though, the trouble here is metagaming. You are comparing Merrill, Isabela and Anders to people in another country who happen to know your neighbour, when it's nothing like that. It's more comparable to going to another country, and meeting people from your homeland who have nothing to do with your life back home. A lot of people never played as Dalish Wardens, so Merrill and Marethari are complete strangers to them, and Merrill never knew a Warden in that reality. The Warden interacted with Isabela for all of five minutes in-game (if at all), and was forgotten by a lot of players. We got to know Anders a bit better, but he is still a stranger to Hawke. All are from Ferelden, but that is hardly surprising, considering the number of refugees in the Free Marches.

The Warden interacted with what seemed like half the population of Ferelden, so it's hardly surprising that a few people you meet may have known them.

[tmp7704]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

I respect your opinion and I can understand it but for me Oghren was the definition of a "one-dimensional character". You know, the one who lacks depth and who never seems to learn or grow or change from his experiences or has some variety in the way he reacts. He was damned to be a drunken dwarf with childish jokes and behavior for eternity. You can describe him in one sentence. He wasn't that bad in Origins though, but if I could, I'd chose a dwarven warrior like Gorim than Oghren as a companion / comrade in arms to aid me with the darkspawn.

I think Oghren was fine as far as depth goes -- the character is deep enough that lot of people never manage to notice there's actually more to him than his "drunk with crass jokes" surface. That he doesn't change is pretty refreshing, realistic for his character and not really any less "dimensional" than the stock growth characters in an RPG go through -- he isn't the typical 'page from the self-help booklet' to borrow from Kefka, and that's rare enough.

[Morning808]

tmp7704 wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

I respect your opinion and I can understand it but for me Oghren was the definition of a "one-dimensional character". You know, the one who lacks depth and who never seems to learn or grow or change from his experiences or has some variety in the way he reacts. He was damned to be a drunken dwarf with childish jokes and behavior for eternity. You can describe him in one sentence. He wasn't that bad in Origins though, but if I could, I'd chose a dwarven warrior like Gorim than Oghren as a companion / comrade in arms to aid me with the darkspawn.

I think Oghren was fine as far as depth goes -- the character is deep enough that lot of people never manage to notice there's actually more to him than his "drunk with crass jokes" surface. That he doesn't change is pretty refreshing, realistic for his character and not really any less "dimensional" than the stock growth characters in an RPG go through -- he isn't the typical 'page from the self-help booklet' to borrow from Kefka, and that's rare enough.

I Completely Agree that he had more of a Character to him but the Problem is the same with Sten if you can't stand their personality and Views then its hard to see more into their character then just the outer shell. I was able to see more into their characters since I can deal with them and I am sorry but I found both very unrewarding! For sure Sten was unrewarding his charater is just boreing and why too much about respect

[tmp7704]

Alodar wrote...

You've obviously never heard of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon (Also see The Oracle of Bacon .)

Six degrees of Kevin Bacon doesn't work for world population. It focuses on movie industry, when bulk of it participates in joint projects organized effectively in single location in the world.

And even with this convenient setup it is "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" while running into the 'old' companions requires a first degree contact, so to speak -- as both your character and them have to choose to be in the same location at the same time to actually meet face to face.

[tmp7704]

Morning808 wrote...

I was able to see more into their characters since I can deal with them and I am sorry but I found both very unrewarding! For sure Sten was unrewarding his charater is just boreing and why too much about respect

I found being able to travel to his homeland in the end and joking about the need to watch his sword for him one of the most rewarding moments of the game, personally... i do have soft spot for Sten, though

[Alodar]

tmp7704 wrote...

Alodar wrote...

You've obviously never heard of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon (Also see The Oracle of Bacon .)

Six degrees of Kevin Bacon doesn't work for world population. It focuses on movie industry, when bulk of it participates in joint projects organized effectively in single location in the world.

When used on a world population it is called six degrees of separation, and it would suprise me if the population of Ferelden is greater than the number of actors who have ever been in tv shows or movies.

And even with this convenient setup it is "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" while running into the 'old' companions requires a first degree contact, so to speak -- as both your character and them have to choose to be in the same location at the same time to actually meet face to face.

Please re-read the Wikipedia link to understand what is meant by degrees of separation.


Alodar

[Morning808]

tmp7704 wrote...

Morning808 wrote...

I was able to see more into their characters since I can deal with them and I am sorry but I found both very unrewarding! For sure Sten was unrewarding his charater is just boreing and why too much about respect

I found being able to travel to his homeland in the end and joking about the need to watch his sword for him one of the most rewarding moments of the game, personally... i do have soft spot for Sten, though

I have a soft spot for the bad*** charaters and seeing their soft side (Jake (ME2) and Morrigan) I find those the most rewarding and I am always happy to have them on my team too

[AlexXIV]

Make a DA:O playthrought that is not dalish origin, avoid the Pearl and sacrifice your warden in the end. Voilà, your Warden didn't know Merril, Anders or Isabella.

[tmp7704]

Alodar wrote...

Please re-read the Wikipedia link to understand what is meant by degrees of separation.

Hence "so to speak" part in my reply. The actual complaint made by the OP isn't as much about degrees of separation as they're meant, but about probability of physical face-to-face encounter with characters in question.

(that said, physical encounter between NPC and Hawke and them getting to know each other would form the single degree link between them, as they're meant)

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 février 2011 - 04:52 .

[Jimmy Fury]

JasonPogo wrote...
Then to everyone else who is saying wait and see they will have a good story.  That is not the point.  I NEVER said Bioware would do a bad job with them.  Hell I will prob like them all.  The point is Bioware has made a point of saying this is a new story with a new Hero.  When a hero that had nothing to do with the Warden keeps running into people that knew the Warden in a whole dif country it makes the world shrink.  I have no doubt David and the other writers will make up great storys for all the companions.  They will just be doing it in a very confined space.

My only real question is who ever said Hawke had nothing to do with the Warden? I've seen them say it's a new story with a new protagonist but I don't recall anyone ever claiming that Hawke had absolutely no connection to the Warden.
Heck, Hawke's related to human mage Warden.

And people might be less inclined to assume you're complaining if you didn't use language that suggests you are.
Lines like "keeps running into people" make it sound like it's going to happen a lot everywhere Hawke goes.
That's why you're getting some of these responses. We know of 6 characters who meet Hawke who might have met the Warden. Only 2 that absolutely did and they aren't even companions. (Flemeth and Sandal)
So that really doesn't mesh with what you're saying.

The only way the Warden knew all 6 characters is if you played a Dalish Elf who learned how to become a duelist from Isabela and survived the final battle to go on to meet Anders at Vigil's Keep.
Anything else is metagaming.

[Alodar]

tmp7704 wrote...

Alodar wrote...

Please re-read the Wikipedia link to understand what is meant by degrees of separation.

Hence "so to speak" part in my reply. The actual complaint made by the OP isn't as much about degrees of separation as they're meant, but about probability of physical face-to-face encounter with characters in question.

The OP is complaining that Hawke is encountering people with two degrees of separation with the Warden. My assertion is that considering how many places the Warden visted ( Lothering, Denerim, Redcliffe, Ostegar, Orzammar, Brecilian Forest, Vigil's Keep, Wending Wood, Sulcher's Pass, Haven, Amaranthine, Mage's Circle etc. ) and how significant a character the Warden was everywhere they went (Including leading the Ferelden charge against the archdemon ), it is not a stretch to say at least a third, if not more, of Ferelden have met theWarden in some capacity.

Hence Hawke running into people that know the Warden is a likely event, regardless of how small the world the OP seems to think that indicates.


Alodar

[JasonPogo]

@Jimmy Fury



The fact that the Warden may not have met so and so person in your game has nothing to do with the fact that they are returning characters. This whole argument is all about metagaming. Since We the players are not the Warden but an all knowing overseer of the stoty. We can argue all day. The fact remains that wemeet many people from the first game. And that makes the game shrink in my view.

[JasonPogo]

Alodar wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Alodar wrote...

Please re-read the Wikipedia link to understand what is meant by degrees of separation.

Hence "so to speak" part in my reply. The actual complaint made by the OP isn't as much about degrees of separation as they're meant, but about probability of physical face-to-face encounter with characters in question.

The OP is complaining that Hawke is encountering people with two degrees of separation with the Warden. My assertion is that considering how many places the Warden visted ( Lothering, Denerim, Redcliffe, Ostegar, Orzammar, Brecilian Forest, Vigil's Keep, Wending Wood, Sulcher's Pass, Haven, Amaranthine, Mage's Circle etc. ) and how significant a character the Warden was everywhere they went (Including leading the Ferelden charge against the archdemon ), it is not a stretch to say at least a third, if not more, of Ferelden have met theWarden in some capacity.

Hence Hawke running into people that know the Warden is a likely event, regardless of how small the world the OP seems to think that indicates.


Alodar

And yet DA2 is not set in Fereldan.

[brain_damage]

David Gaider wrote...

Having so many characters make a return

That's three, only one of which was a party member. We are not transplanting the entire cast. Please spare me the hyperbole.

So...Merril and Anders? No? We saw that Anders is a companion, didn't we?

[Jimmy Fury]

JasonPogo wrote...

@Jimmy Fury

The fact that the Warden may not have met so and so person in your game has nothing to do with the fact that they are returning characters. This whole argument is all about metagaming. Since We the players are not the Warden but an all knowing overseer of the stoty. We can argue all day. The fact remains that wemeet many people from the first game. And that makes the game shrink in my view.

And the question remains of who ever said the stories were completely unrelated?

[tmp7704]

Alodar wrote...

The OP is complaining that Hawke is encountering people with two degrees of separation with the Warden.

Two degrees? In number of scenarios these people are direct acquaintances of the Warden. 

My assertion is that considering how many places the Warden visted ( Lothering, Denerim, Redcliffe, Ostegar, Orzammar, Brecilian Forest, Vigil's Keep, Wending Wood, Sulcher's Pass, Haven, Amaranthine, Mage's Circle etc. ) and how significant a character the Warden was everywhere they went (Including leading the Ferelden charge against the archdemon ), it is not a stretch to say at least a third, if not more, of Ferelden have met theWarden in some capacity.

Hence Hawke running into people that know the Warden is a likely event, regardless of how small the world the OP seems to think that indicates.

I think your conflict of opinion stems from slightly different focus -- note that you talk how large part of Ferelden have met the Warden in some capacity. While that's highly likely to occur (you know someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows the Warden because they ran into him/her at the market in Denerim) the probability of scenarios of DA2 (you know someone who knows the Warden personally and/or intimately) is much lower, and as number of such --and only such-- instances increases, it becomes harder and harder to believe this could happen.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 février 2011 - 05:03 .

[Ramus Quaritch]

You only met Merrill in DA:O if you are a Dalish Warden and she was only in the last part of that origin story. Isabella has a cameo. Anders is the only person who had a significant role in the previous game. Bringing them back can help tie the Warden's story into DA2, but those characters are all ripe for further development as their roles wer small. Concerning the topic as a whole, Kirkwall is a new setting with a different architecture, culture, and style. Most of the companions are new. Most of the characters are new minus some side characters and Flemeth. I think DA: 2 is showing us a new part of Thedas, which is making the world bigger.

[Talon_Wu]

@tmp7704 Yes, two degrees. Warden --> Isabela (1) --> Hawke (2)