6655 réponses à ce sujet

[ThatDancingTurian]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ahh sorry, that was "gets turned on" in the sense of "activates" for Vengeance. Alas, i can't resist cheap wordplay like that.

Aah. I would think not. I'd assume hatred, stress or rage activates Vengeance, and unless Hawke really likes some kinky roleplay, I'd hope Templars won't be coming up in any of the romantic discussions. If anything I'd think the romance would offer Anders a distraction from this consuming lust for revenge.

[tmp7704]

TeenZombie wrote...

So, yeah, now that it has been established that Cannibalism=BAD, many times over, is it okay to talk about other aspects of his character?  Do we have permission from the self appointed moderators who keep harping on the fact that this is indeed a discussion thread?

I'd think it's always okay to talk about other aspects of Anders' character, and that you don't need anyone's permission for that. It's possible to discuss more than one aspect in a single thread at the same time, after all.

[ReallyRue]

It must be very traumatic for Anders indeed to realise that he unintentionally ate a load of people, and even more so that his control will weaken over time. Incredibly disturbing.

However, I can't help but wonder if Vengeance still retains any memory of being Justice. If he looks at his past state scornfully, if he even remembers, or if he feels anger. I know that demons are driven by whatever emotion they associate themselves with, just like the other spirits, but because Justice was in the mortal world and different to other spirits, I wonder if Vengeance has some sort of persepctive that goes beyond 'must kill all templars/Chantry'. It looks unlikely, from that story, but the story is told from the perspective of one seriously confused guy, so I wonder.

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

So, yeah, now that it has been established that Cannibalism=BAD, many times over, is it okay to talk about other aspects of his character?  Do we have permission from the self appointed moderators who keep harping on the fact that this is indeed a discussion thread?

I'd think it's always okay to talk about other aspects of Anders' character, and that you don't need anyone's permission for that. It's possible to discuss more than one aspect in a single thread at the same time, after all.

Yep.  That's a pretty convenient mischaracterization of my "this is a discussion thread" point.  I was saying that we can discuss negative, disturbing, or uncomfortable aspects of a character.  Not that we must exclusively discuss them.  

But no speaking for myself you don't need permission and no I'm not going to personally drag every issue back to "eaten flesh."   Just don't - you or anyone else - tell me or others to get a new thread if we want to continue to discuss it.  That's all.

[HolyJellyfish]

Taleroth wrote...
Blood has to actually come out to be useful to power spells.  Otherwise the spilling of your own blood would never work.  That's typically how it the practice starts.  Spilling some of your own blood then using that to power spells.

Ingesting it would defeat the purpose entirely.

Where does it state that? And does the same apply for demons? Mind you, Anders isn't spilling his own blood. His spilling OTHER people's blood.

I still get the impression it is a very dark, disturbing version of Blood Magic.

Reavers "consume" fallen victims, draining their blood. That is also a form of Blood Magic.

" A blood mage must be willing to sacrifice his own life force or that of others in order to wield this power. "

"This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned
from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination"

Description of Reavers - "Demonic spirits teach more than blood magic. Reavers terrorize their
enemies, feast upon the souls of their slain opponents to heal their own
flesh, and can unleash a blood frenzy that makes them more powerful as
they come nearer to their own deaths.
"

Both specializations are extremely mysterious with little info shed on both. But again, all theoretical, they are taught by demons (according to the Codex) at the risk of a mage becoming an abomination. Anders is, himself, an abomination and drank blood. Its very possible this was blood magic at work.

[Maria Caliban]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

...a form of dark blood magic...

As opposed to that sweet and happy blood magic we've seen previously.

[ThatDancingTurian]

yukidama wrote...

Besides the point. The issue isn't Anders, it's that Anders is possessed by a demon who, when it assumes direct control, kills and eats people and thinks the blood of his enemies is delicious. If Anders struggles to but can't control it, there's a huge problem.

The reason it is different with the Wardens is because there is no pleasure derived from drinking what basically poisons and slowly kills you. Unless your Warden totally got off on that, then... issues.

Who says it's beside the point? I was talking of physical disgust, not the moral issue.

I agree it's a problem, it's likely to be the single biggest obstacle in the romance. And I agree that one would have to be messed up to find cannibalism or blood drinking a turn on. I can't imagine my Hawke will 'get off on' Vengeance being a cannibal either, but we don't even know if she'll ever find that out. We don't even know if Vengeance will commit any other acts of cannibalism in the game, or if that was only in the short story to emphasize how very, very bad he is.

@obnoxiousgas: That image killed me.

[Dave of Canada]

Since quoting would take too long, here's a long post.

Anders is an abomination, he might not have his flesh jacket but he's still one. If he wasn't an abomination, he wouldn't have to struggle to keep his free will in the same sense of how Connor could reassert his will after he could "overpower" the Desire Demon after she was weakened.

We don't know how Vengeance works, he could be like the Desire Demon that possessed Connor or like the flesh jackets (when he asserts full control) but he's still a demon.

only to find that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance. Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control over the demon within...

So this means that while Vengeance may still be the Justice that all loved before, he's gained new priorities which includes nomming on the bodies of the dead. Blood Magic doesn't use cannibalism, it's about manipulating blood in other enemies to cause pain and control by using your own blood or those of enemies. It doesn't require you to gorge on the corpses of enemies or taking a bite out of John's arm. Maybe, just maybe, Abomination Anders could've used his teeth to make his enemy bleed to use it's blood... but then again, the story very clearly says "eaten" and you can't argue that.

There's only two personalities in Anders, Anders and Vengeance. The assumption that Vengeance feels horrible and doesn't know what is going on when Anders blacks out suggests a third personality, which doesn't exist, so it means Vengeance had full control when the Anders personality blacked out. If you'd like to argue that Vengeance had no idea what is doing, then you're implying Anders did which isn't consistant with the short story.

And let's not forget what happened with Connor either, he was curable but this meant that he had to let the demon in. This complicates things with Anders, he let the spirit in... that turned into a demon, does it work the same? Can Anders still be cured in the same sense that Connor was cured? What will happen when Anders can't focus on burning down the Chantry, assuming the ritual is to be done after the mage / templar war? Will the demon assert full control? Will Anders, like Connor, forget everything that happened since he was possessed (including his lover/friends)?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 février 2011 - 10:14 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

...a form of dark blood magic...

As opposed to that sweet and happy blood magic we've seen previously.

Well, for the most part, a lot of people seem okay with blood magic since you aren't consumming anyone's blood just manipulating it.

I get the impression it is much more darker than that, to the point of feeding.

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

...a form of dark blood magic...

As opposed to that sweet and happy blood magic we've seen previously.

Boiling the blood in the veins of your enemies isn't at all dark.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Yes, bring up a topic and people may choose to discuss it. Some people are just very attached to the darker aspects of the character. You can't blame them. If they drag your discussion back to the cannibalism issue then... *shrug.* Try to move on I guess.

[upsettingshorts]

Meh, I brought up the "Behind Blue Eyes" thing. I liked Anders a lot in DAA. I think he's a good guy. I look forward to seeing what they've done with his character in the game. But he's clearly changed in DA2, and that change is interesting. His short story introduction in the V-Day announcement - clearly meant to inspire discussion - was very dark. What's so unreasonable about finding the newer darker information inherently more interesting and worthy of discussion? Is that "hating" or "trolling" or being fixated or whatever?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 février 2011 - 10:16 .

[syllogi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

So, yeah, now that it has been established that Cannibalism=BAD, many times over, is it okay to talk about other aspects of his character?  Do we have permission from the self appointed moderators who keep harping on the fact that this is indeed a discussion thread?

I'd think it's always okay to talk about other aspects of Anders' character, and that you don't need anyone's permission for that. It's possible to discuss more than one aspect in a single thread at the same time, after all.

Yep.  That's a pretty convenient mischaracterization of my "this is a discussion thread" point.  I was saying that we can discuss negative, disturbing, or uncomfortable aspects of a character.  Not that we must exclusively discuss them.  

But no speaking for myself you don't need permission and no I'm not going to personally drag every issue back to "eaten flesh."   Just don't - you or anyone else - tell me or others to get a new thread if we want to continue to discuss it.  That's all.

When someone (not me, incidentally) wonders why we're still talking about this nine hours later, being told that this is a "discussion" thread by someone (not you, incidentally) who is only empty quoting others and making snide remarks about cannibalism, I have to wonder what the point is.  Pretty much anyone who has talked about the story has remarked that it is serious and Anders is obviously in a dark place.  Every time people try to talk about something other than this, though, the cannibalism quips get brought up again.  We get it.

I'm just saying, we've got weeks to go, and the cycle is already getting old.

[tmp7704]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Well, for the most part, a lot of people seem okay with blood magic since you aren't consumming anyone's blood just manipulating it.

It seems to me --based on things said in the relevant threads-- people who are okay with blood magic mostly focus on how it can be used for good things, while also marginalizing the negative uses (as something they'd never practice) and the actual procedure, because we don't exactly know that much about it other than it may require stabbing oneself to draw blood, and such.

Modifié par tmp7704, 16 février 2011 - 10:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Blood Magic is implied to be pretty cannibalistic.

Blood Magic mainly manipulation of blood or using it as a power source, akin to lyrium.

Yeah, but the consumption of blood for Venegance in Anders body would probably be the same as drinking a lyrium potion. Seeing as how demons are the masters of that art.

That art being blood magic... or?

It's Dragons that are the actual masters of blood magic.

Dragons? How so? It was the demons that taught them.

Though I wonder how blood can be used, would carrying blood in a pouch work to drag the "power" from it, or is there a set spoiling date from leaving the body or the body dying.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Meh, I brought up the "Behind Blue Eyes" thing. I liked Anders a lot in DAA. I think he's a good guy. I look forward to seeing what they've done with his character in the game. But he's clearly changed in DA2, and that change is interesting. His short story introduction in the V-Day announcement - clearly meant to inspire discussion - was very dark. What's so unreasonable about finding the newer darker information inherently more interesting and worthy of discussion? Is that "hating" or "trolling" ?

Nah.  It's not.  And if his darker parts weren't interesting, that LI blurb wouldn't have been what it was.  And btw I really liked that song.

[upsettingshorts]

TeenZombie wrote...

I'm just saying, we've got weeks to go, and the cycle is already getting old.

That's pretty much standard in every long thread on the BSN, though.  We discuss the most recent info to death due to lack of new info, then when we get some, discuss that to death.  Until the game comes out.  

[HolyJellyfish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Since quoting would take too long, here's a long post.

Anders is an abomination, he might not have his flesh jacket but he's still one. If he wasn't an abomination, he wouldn't have to struggle to keep his free will in the same sense of how Connor could reassert his will after he could "overpower" the Desire Demon after she was weakened.

We don't know how Vengeance works, he could be like the Desire Demon that possessed Connor or like the flesh jackets (when he asserts full control) but he's still a demon.

only to find that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance. Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control over the demon within...

So this means that while Vengeance may still be the Justice that all loved before, he's gained new priorities which includes nomming on the bodies of the dead. Blood Magic doesn't use cannibalism, it's about manipulating blood in other enemies to cause pain and control by using your own blood or those of enemies. It doesn't require you to engorge on the corpses of enemies or taking a bite out of John's arm. Maybe, just maybe, Abomination Anders could've used his teeth to make his enemy bleed to use it's blood... but then again, the story very clearly says "eaten" and you can't argue that.

For one, cannibalism doesn't seem to be Vengeance's priority but a side effect of what he is. His priority is destroying the Chantry, by any means possible.

For two, there are no clear indications of just what the extent Blood Magic is. We simply don't know. Reaver as a specialty is hinted as a form of Blood Magic, and one of the attacks is - in fact - Consumption.

What I can argue is at the point Anders drank blood to the point he finally came to, he blacked out and there was so much CRAZY destruction around him, he didn't understand how it could have been done.

It could have been blood magic that fueled the rage. Vengeance is a demon, Vengeance is capable of blood magic from its very very raw source, as all demons seem capable or know of how to use it.

There's only two personalities in Anders, Anders and Vengeance. The assumption that Vengeance feels horrible and doesn't know what is going on when Anders blacks out suggests a third personality, which doesn't exist, so it means Vengeance had full control when the Anders personality blacked out. If you'd like to argue that Vengeance had no idea what is doing, then you're implying Anders did which isn't consistant with the short story.

Anders blacked out. He didn't know what happened. He didn't know what he had become. He's sort of like Jekyl & Hyde. Its a case of split personality. Vengeance is different. He's not mortal. He's a demon from another realm. He operates differently.

Look at Connor for example. Connor was an abomination, and he had NO idea what was going on around him. He managed to push through SOMETIMES, but for the most part he was scared, confused, and blacked out frequently.

And let's not forget what happened with Connor either, he was curable but this meant that he had to let the demon in. This complicates things with Anders, he let the spirit in... that turned into a demon, does it work the same? Can Anders still be cured in the same sense that Connor was cured? What will happen when Anders can't focus on burning down the Chantry, assuming the ritual is to be done after the mage / templar war? Will the demon assert full control? Will Anders, like Connor, forget everything that happened since he was possessed (including his lover/friends)?

For all we know, who Connor approached may have been a spirit that was corrupted similar to the way Anders corrupted Justice.

If he does forget, yaay for wonderful beginnings.

[Dave of Canada]

TeenZombie wrote...

When someone (not me, incidentally) wonders why we're still talking about this nine hours later

Because it's a discussion.

being told that this is a "discussion" thread by someone (not you, incidentally)

Last I checked, it still is the discussion thread and discussion threads are for both positive and negative aspects of the character. This isn't the "Anders Positivity Thread".

who is only empty quoting others and making snide remarks about cannibalism

Empty quoting? Removing a part of somebody saying "I was asleep" is empty quoting? Okay.

I have to wonder what the point is.

The point is that you don't go into a discussion saying "OMFG WE'RE STILL DISCUSSING THIS".

Pretty much anyone who has talked about the story has remarked that it is serious and Anders is obviously in a dark place.

Not everybody talked about it, new posters come in and new opinions come in. If you don't want to talk about it, don't do it. Don't go "omg" when somebody does talk about it with other people interested in talking about it.

Every time people try to talk about something other than this, though, the cannibalism quips get brought up again.  We get it.

Because it was an important part of the story and shows how bad Anders is.

I'm just saying, we've got weeks to go, and the cycle is already getting old.

Get used to it.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Dave of Canada wrote...

And let's not forget what happened with Connor either, he was curable but this meant that he had to let the demon in. This complicates things with Anders, he let the spirit in... that turned into a demon, does it work the same? Can Anders still be cured in the same sense that Connor was cured? What will happen when Anders can't focus on burning down the Chantry, assuming the ritual is to be done after the mage / templar war? Will the demon assert full control? Will Anders, like Connor, forget everything that happened since he was possessed (including his lover/friends)?

I'm pretty sure these are the big questions, and I doubt any one of them will be answered before March 8th, sadly.

I hope he can be cured in some way. I think him losing his memories afterwards would be interesting, if terribly sad. I'm also wondering what would happen if the Templars were out of the equation, what Vengeance would set his sights on next. I have a feeling he'd just find something else to hate. (The mages who allowed themselves to be captured? That'd be ironic.) But I doubt we're actually going to get to iradicate the Chantry in DA2, so the question is moot.

[Taleroth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Dragons? How so? It was the demons that taught them.

Though I wonder how blood can be used, would carrying blood in a pouch work to drag the "power" from it, or is there a set spoiling date from leaving the body or the body dying.

It was the Old Gods that taught the Tevinters Blood Magic.  And there's no knowing where the Old Gods got it.  The codex mentions it coming from demons, but it also mentions Reaver coming from demons.  When we know that both in DAO and DA2 (as confirmed by screenshots), Reaver comes from the knowledge of dragons.  Blood Mage is taught by a demon in DAO, but I don't recall an instance of a non-abomination demon ever using it.  But we do see two dragons use it (the ones in the Silverite Mines). 

I do believe we're on a tangent.  Nontheless, an abomination could easily know Blood Magic even if I am correct and it's not from demons.  Or he could simply be revelling in slaughter.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 février 2011 - 10:26 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
 But I doubt we're actually going to get to iradicate the Chantry in DA2, so the question is moot.

Could it be this war that Cassandra is talking about?  *waggle fingers*

[Dave of Canada]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I hope he can be cured in some way. I think him losing his memories afterwards would be interesting, if terribly sad.

Would be a funny way to reference the Warden.

"Hey! Where's the awesome Commander?"

[syllogi]

@Dave: "Empty quoting" is taking someone else's quotes and reposting them without comment. I'm not saying that you misquoted, but you were not adding anything by reposting quotes. And though you have started to actually discuss the topic, earlier you were making snide remarks about cannibalism. If you genuinely have something new to add, great. It's hard to see that when you're making jokes about dipping sauce, though.



In short, if you think that unfunny cannibalism jokes are "discussion" get used to being called on it.