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[Dave of Canada]

TeenZombie wrote...

In short, if you think that unfunny cannibalism jokes are "discussion" get used to being called on it.

If that's all you've seen from my posts, then I assume you aren't reading them.

[leggywillow]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Aah. I would think not. I'd assume hatred, stress or rage activates Vengeance, and unless Hawke really likes some kinky roleplay, I'd hope Templars won't be coming up in any of the romantic discussions. If anything I'd think the romance would offer Anders a distraction from this consuming lust for revenge.

::snickers::

As for the cannibalism issue, I feel like I brought up tons of nice points last night that were often ignored or brushed over, and as my real life has been a bit emotionally trying today, I physically do not have the energy at the moment to go copy/paste them here.  Sooooo... Anders.  Yeah.  He's awesome, and I'm extremely excited about him.

[HolyJellyfish]

Taleroth wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Dragons? How so? It was the demons that taught them.

Though I wonder how blood can be used, would carrying blood in a pouch work to drag the "power" from it, or is there a set spoiling date from leaving the body or the body dying.

It was the Old Gods that taught the Tevinters Blood Magic.  And there's no knowing where the Old Gods got it.  The codex mentions it coming from demons, but it also mentions Reaver coming from demons.  When we know that both in DAO and DA2 (as confirmed by screenshots), Reaver comes from the knowledge of dragons.  Blood Mage is taught by a demon in DAO, but I don't recall an instance of a non-abomination demon ever using it.  But we do see two dragons use it (the ones in the Silverite Mines).

But the codex still suggests Reaver is from demons. Demons who are from the Fade, and Dragons that may have some connection to the fade that we don't know about.

The game shows one thing, the Codex says another. But they seem to be interconnected.

Non-abomination demon not using it, sure. Abomination demons, yes. Anders is an abomination. The possibility that what he committed was a form of blood magic / reave / maybe an entirely new specialization all together is viable.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 16 février 2011 - 10:28 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Meh, I brought up the "Behind Blue Eyes" thing. I liked Anders a lot in DAA. I think he's a good guy. I look forward to seeing what they've done with his character in the game. But he's clearly changed in DA2, and that change is interesting. His short story introduction in the V-Day announcement - clearly meant to inspire discussion - was very dark. What's so unreasonable about finding the newer darker information inherently more interesting and worthy of discussion? Is that "hating" or "trolling" or being fixated or whatever?

That's what I look forward too. In DAA he was funny and for the most part very upbeat and he had very strong opinions on the circle and how they handle mages. The joining with Justice is an interesting twist to both characters as the opinions seems to have magnified to the point of were something needs to be done about it.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. 

[Dave of Canada]

Filament wrote...

That's debatable, it could be that both Anders and Vengeance blacked out in a sense that there wasn't a third "personality" involved... just that the positive feedback loop between Anders' rage and Justice's sense of vengeance overpowered both of their senses. People in real life can black out and do things they don't remember, that doesn't mean there's a second personality in control. Just an aspect of them that they don't remember.

I think the story heavily implies the spirit was in control after the scene fades back to Anders after he went crazy. He questions what happened to his friend and stuff, which leads him to question what he is himself.

It's not completely clear whether Vengeance became Vengeance before or after merging with Anders. Even assuming it was after, both Connor and Anders let a spirit in... I doubt this distinction will be as relevant as you're making it out to be. I mean, maybe. We'll see.

Which is why I brought up as a question rather than a statement, I'm rather confused about it myself. I don't know if it'll work like the other demons or a Connor-esque possession.

Connor's possession was because he freely gave himself to the demon to control him.
Ander's possession has him resisting Vengeance's control, which is much like the flesh jacket demons. It's... kind of difficult to tell when the demon is already inside the mage, simply because he technically didn't let the demon come in and Anders changes physically when Vengeance is in control.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 février 2011 - 10:34 .

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Dragons? How so? It was the demons that taught them.

Though I wonder how blood can be used, would carrying blood in a pouch work to drag the "power" from it, or is there a set spoiling date from leaving the body or the body dying.

It was the Old Gods that taught the Tevinters Blood Magic.  And there's no knowing where the Old Gods got it.  The codex mentions it coming from demons, but it also mentions Reaver coming from demons.  When we know that both in DAO and DA2 (as confirmed by screenshots), Reaver comes from the knowledge of dragons.

Dragons are smart animals, they don't have magic capabilities. That cultists know the reaver trait and uses dragon blood for the initiation does not prove that dragons taught them. That would conversely prove that darkspawn invented grey wardens in that case.

As for the codex, if there are multiple sources for the origin, I use the one that is cited the most as a default. Attributing the old gods to teaching him blood magic could be a tactic to make the old gods seem even less appealing after the fall as to avoid new cults arising (as the book was written by the chantry, yes?). Anyways, the old gods are no ordinary dragons if dragons at all.

Taleroth wrote...

I do believe we're on a tangent.  Nontheless, an abomination could easily know Blood Magic even if I am correct and it's not from demons.  Or he could simply be revelling in slaughter.

Yeah, it is a tangent. He could just be reveling and tasting the sweetness of justice.

Edit: As for demons not using blood magic, I see possession as a form of blood magic.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 16 février 2011 - 10:39 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Could it be this war that Cassandra is talking about?  *waggle fingers*

Possibly so, but if it's a war I don't think it's one that we'll see won by either side at the end of the game. There will always be more Templars for Vengeance to hate on somewhere. If not in Kirkwall, then in Ferelden or somewhere else.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Would be a funny way to reference the Warden.

"Hey! Where's the awesome Commander?"

It'd be great for Anders to not have to remember everything, at least until he realized all of his friends in Ferelden think he's an evil abomination traitor now.

[AzuraLuna]

From the conversations in Awakening, it seems Justice may have already been slightly corrupted by his experiences outside of the fade. The fact that he offered a deal to Anders out of a desire to stay in the mortal realm reinforces that. Anders was betrayed by (seemingly) everyone. His father, the Templars, the Grey Wardens, and the final betrayal by whatshisname pushed both of them over the edge.

It may not be as easy to "cure" him as it appears. Most of the other abominations have part of their demons still in the fade, where a mage can go to defeat it and therefore cleanse the person. Justice was fully ripped from the Fade, so I don't think Hawke & Co will be able to go there to "fix" Vanders.

[RestARose13]

So, I just had a thought (sorry to interrupt the current discussion) but what if the unknown gift at the end of Witch Hunt is the map Anders took?

[Rinji the Bearded]

AzuraLuna wrote...

From the conversations in Awakening, it seems Justice may have already been slightly corrupted by his experiences outside of the fade. The fact that he offered a deal to Anders out of a desire to stay in the mortal realm reinforces that. Anders was betrayed by (seemingly) everyone. His father, the Templars, the Grey Wardens, and the final betrayal by whatshisname pushed both of them over the edge.
It may not be as easy to "cure" him as it appears. Most of the other abominations have part of their demons still in the fade, where a mage can go to defeat it and therefore cleanse the person. Justice was fully ripped from the Fade, so I don't think Hawke & Co will be able to go there to "fix" Vanders.

He was in the Fade when he first merged with Justice though.  Who knows.  

[Rinji the Bearded]

Hihane wrote...

So, I just had a thought (sorry to interrupt the current discussion) but what if the unknown gift at the end of Witch Hunt is the map Anders took?

It could be anything.  I wanna hope that they'll touch upon it in DA2 but I really really doubt it.

[AtreiyaN7]

Here are Connor's descriptions of what it was like when the demon was in control of him. These two bits from his dialogue seemed pertinent to the Anders situation.

If you ask if you're talking to the real Connor, Connor says: "I'm always me, but sometimes the scary lady takes over. I feel like I'm sleeping, but I guess I'm not."
And later on in the dialogue tree, he says: "Then the bad lady started talking to me, in my sleep. And when I'd wake up, I'd have done things I didn't remember. It's all my fault."

This sounds similar to what Anders experienced. At first he was aware of what was going on (albeit in a trance-like state). Later on, bam, Vengeance kicked in and Anders blacked out during the worst of it. I also checked what Irving said about the exorcism ritual by asking if the ritual was the only way.

Irving says: "It only works because the child gave himself to the demon willingly. If the demon takes over the host forcibly, we must slay the abomination."

Since Anders was a willing host, it sounds like exorcising Vengeance/Justice might be a possible option. However, I'd want to find a way to save both of them - I don't think Justice set out to become this horrible thing after all. Maybe I should load up that bit before chit-chatting with Uldred, but I don't think he said anything all that insightful (well, maybe there was that "larval stage" comment, but who knows how seriously to take that). He did seem as if he and the demon had merged into more of a singular personality, but you don't exactly get to talk to him for any great length to see if he goes all demonic (his voice remained normal throughout, whereas Connors had the whole Linda Blair demon voice thing going on).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 16 février 2011 - 11:04 .

[Shepard Lives]

So, does Anders change physically when Vengeance takes over? Since the templar dude in the story is horrified despite having faced broodmothers and abominations. Something tells me it's not the standard flesh tuxedo.
Plus, didn't Anders have an ability on his quickbar in that Deep Roads video that was supposed to evoke Vengeance? Mmmmmm I'm so curious.

... you know what would be awesome? If whenever Vengeance took over the camera switched to an over-Anders'-shoulder perspective. Like Mouse in the Mage origin. We'd never actually learn what he looks like, but we would see everyone getting totally grossed out and stuff.

Modifié par Shepard Lives, 16 février 2011 - 10:58 .

[HolyJellyfish]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Here are Connor's descriptions of what it was like when the demon was in control of him. These two bits from his dialogue seemed pertinent to the Anders situation.

If you ask if you're talking to the real Connor, Connor says: "I'm always me, but sometimes the scary lady takes over. I feel like I'm sleeping, but I guess I'm not"
And later on in the dialogue tree, he says: "Then the bad lady started talking to me, in my sleep. And when I'd wake up, I'd have done things I didn't remember. It's all my fault."

This sounds similar to what Anders experienced. At first he was aware of what was going on (albeit in a trance-like state). Later on, bam, Vengeance kicked in and Anders blacked out during the worst of it. I also checked what Irving said about the exorcism ritual by asking if the ritual was the only way.

Irving says: "It only works because the child gave himself to the demon willingly. If the demon takes over the host forcibly, we must slay the abomination."

Since Anders was a willing host, it sounds like exorcising Vengeance/Justice might be a possible option. However, I'd want to find a way to save both of them - I don't think Justice set out to become this horrible thing after all. Maybe I should load up that bit before chit-chatting with Uldred, but I don't think he said anything all that insightful (well, maybe there was that "larval stage" comment, but who knows how seriously to take that). He did seem as if he and the demon had merged into more of a singular personality, but you don't exactly get to talk to him for any great length to see if he goes all demonic (his voice remained normal throughout, whereas Connors had the whole Linda Blair demon voice thing going on).

These are ALL excellent points.

I don't get the impression Anders will receive a "Flesh-Jacket". He willingly gave himself up. The only abominations that are nasty nasty gross looking are those that are forced into becoming an abomination. Uldred as an exception, but he turned into the manifestation of the demon itself, not a Flesh-Jacket.

It definitely seems like for Anders there are three personalities. Anders, Vengeance, and this being that is a combination of the two (In the story, he tries to describe who he is without understanding who he has become). It reminds me of the Puppet Master and Motoko from Ghost in the Shell.

[Shepard Lives]

Mash Mashington wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Irving says: "It only works because the child gave himself to the demon willingly. If the demon takes over the host forcibly, we must slay the abomination."

Yes, we have this Irving quote, but we also know, that Fiona, who was possessed against her will, was freed from the demon. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd see some sort of retcon of demon/mage relationships in DA2

Wynne says in party banter that forcibly-possessed abominations can be freed by slaying the demon in the Fade a la Connor, but also that when the mage is freed he/she's not quite the same person anymore. I think there's very considerable overlapping of the two minds (mage-demon), and removing one must be like tearing off one of the person's limbs.

[Dave of Canada]

Filament wrote...

I don't think it necessarily implies that. Anders blacked out, he sees all this, naturally his assumption is that Vengeance did it. It could be that Vengeance wakes up and is just as horrified. I don't think it's really clear at this point.

Touche.

It seems Vengeance is interested in healing people and atoning as much as Anders is, since in his trailer he takes control to defend his "sanctum."

Probably because the people weren't templar or part of the Chantry, which Vengeance wouldn't have much of a problem with yet. Vengeance only emerged when Anders felt that he was betrayed to the templar by Redshirt Warden 2376.

I do think the fact that he questions both himself and Vengeance may be telling. When I say maybe they both blacked out, that's not to say that thus, neither of them are responsible. They would both be responsible, in a sense. It was an aspect of both of their personalities, twisted and magnified.

Could be, though I think that he himself knows what Justice has become and that's why he's questioning it. He still refers it as Justice, though that might simply because Vengeance still calls it Justice.

Are you sure that resistance = flesh jacket and acceptance = keep their normal form? I thought it was more about the power of the demon involved, the more powerful ones able to maintain the appearance of their host better. But yeah, it's an interesting question...

Flesh Jackets, from what I gathered in Origins, are what happens when a demon brute forces itself into a mage and doesn't slip in. The only exception we've seen in this case is Uldred and Baroness, though these two were Pride Demons. Sophia Dryden too, though she was dead and can't really offer much resistance.

Connor kept his form, though. Irving says the only reason the ritual will work is because Connor made a deal with the demon willingly, instead of having the demon force itself inside of him. Had the demon possessed him otherwise, the ritual wouldn't have worked.

This leaves Anders in a very odd position, he let the spirit in willingly... but the spirit isn't part of the Fade and the spirit isn't a spirit anymore, it's trying to possess Anders completely and Anders has to resist him. Since Vengeance is a new type of demon, we don't know if he'll turn into a flesh jacket (I assume so, Vengeance can't be too much different than a Rage Demon) or remain in his human form.

Though what we do know is that Anders has physical changes when he transforms into Vengeance, his skin cracks and stuff. Connor had no such thing, though that might've been for the sake of model limitations. Vengeance also has no link to the Fade that can be severed from Anders, you'd have to banish the spirit directly out of his body and we don't even know if it's possible.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 février 2011 - 11:11 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Dave of Canada wrote...


Though what we do know is that Anders has physical changes when he transforms into Vengeance, his skin cracks and stuff. Connor had no such thing, though that might've been for the sake of model limitations. Vengeance also has no link to the Fade that can be severed from Anders, you'd have to banish the spirit directly out of his body and we don't even know if it's possible.

Is there an image or screen grab of this? I must have missed a post way back when, because I'm definitely interested.

[Rinji the Bearded]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...


Though what we do know is that Anders has physical changes when he transforms into Vengeance, his skin cracks and stuff. Connor had no such thing, though that might've been for the sake of model limitations. Vengeance also has no link to the Fade that can be severed from Anders, you'd have to banish the spirit directly out of his body and we don't even know if it's possible.

Is there an image or screen grab of this? I must have missed a post way back when, because I'm definitely interested.

Oh, no.  It's part of that LI blurb.  The Warden was describing it to the other Templar and Anders overheard.

[Dave of Canada]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Is there an image or screen grab of this? I must have missed a post way back when, because I'm definitely interested.

It's in the short story.

"He just went crazy. His eyes were glowing… His bloody skin cracked open and it was like he was on fire inside. Just kept raving… something about injustice, a revolution. Thought I was going to have to put the blighter down like a mad dog, then he just collapsed."

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 février 2011 - 11:24 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Quoted from the romances thread:

errant_knight wrote...

Boy, I sure hope that Anders isn't in the party when we meet Alistair, or that Alistair is very drunk at the time, or this could get ugly. No, I take that back. I don't want him to be that drunk. I want to talk to him and hopefully have some kind of quest, so he can't be that drunk. OMG, danger, Will Robinson. I really don't want Alistair and Anders fighting to the death. That would be horrifying.

Am I the only one who thinks that if they don't actually end up killing each other, this could potentially be one of the funniest things ever? I found them both incredibly entertaining, I was disappointed they didn't really speak in Awakening.

Alistair: ::arrives in Kirkwall with his entourage of royal guards and/or Grey Wardens. He starts to speak to Hawke about the matter at hand (whatever that may be), and finally notices Anders::
Anders: ::steps a little further behind Hawke and begins whistling quietly::
Alistair: ::narrows eyes for a moment:: ... Maker's breath! You're the one, the apostate who killed all of those templars!
Anders: That, uh, that wasn't me.
Alistair: That's your excuse?
Anders: No, really. I seem to have one of those faces. I've actually been told I look like you a few times.
Alistair: ::blinks::
Anders: I don't see it, personally.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 16 février 2011 - 11:29 .

[leggywillow]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Alistair: ::arrives in Kirkwall with his entourage of royal guards and/or Grey Wardens. He starts to speak to Hawke about the matter at hand (whatever that may be), and finally notices Anders::
Anders: ::steps a little further behind Hawke and begins whistling quietly::
Alistair: ::narrows eyes for a moment:: ... Maker's breath! You're the one, the apostate who killed all of those templars!
Anders: That, uh, that wasn't me.
Alistair: That's your excuse?
Anders: No, really. I seem to have one of those faces. I've actually been told I look like you a few times.
Alistair: ::blinks::
Anders: I don't see it, personally.

Justice: No, it was I who slayed the templars.
Anders: Damnit, Justice, shut up!
Justice: It is not just to lie.
Anders: I would break your face if that didn't involve breaking my own face.

[Threeparts]

Just woke up, so excuse me if I'm a little fuzzy, but how did you come to the conclusion that J/V is no longer connected to the Fade? We confronted Connor's demon in the fade and the sloth demon in the Tower in the fade, and I'm guessing that J/V isn't strong enough to manifest on his own like the Baroness did.



As for how he looks when he hulks out, I assume it's the blue light filling him up. It doesn't sound that scary after everything we've seen, but perhaps it was for the Warden Templar since he'd never seen it happen to Anders before. Dunno.