6655 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Filament wrote...

Valor and Fear?

I'd guess Audacity may actually be corrupted Valour.

[Lucy Glitter]

Filament wrote...

Demons are a type of spirit in and of themselves, and since spirits can represent any sort of idea, it makes sense that there could be corrupted spirits representing the darker side of a certain idea. Justice and Vengeance... Faith and Doubt? (sense controversy there) Valor and Fear?

Oh god. I can see it now.

We will be seeing BioWare being accussed of working with the Illuminati down the track, as well as being satanists. I am almost certain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

Demons are a type of spirit in and of themselves, and since spirits can represent any sort of idea, it makes sense that there could be corrupted spirits representing the darker side of a certain idea. Justice and Vengeance... Faith and Doubt? (sense controversy there) Valor and Fear?

edit: no, I'm just listing opposites, aren't I? Not really the same as Justice and Vengeance. But.. Hmph. Maybe I'll think of a better one later.

Faith and blind faith. Valor and recklessness. 

But even then, I think it's missing the point that demons desire something / feel something. So justice would be the (supposedely, at least fade spirit wise) impartial impersonal principle. Vs vengeance that is, by definition, personal and emotional.

[Jean]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Part of me wants to say that the line was trying to say that "revenge is sweet".
But it could be literal.

Yep, this.  It could be literal; it could be figurative.  We won't know until we play the game, and even then we may never know.  I like the idea of a more figurative interpretation, for obvious reasons, but of course I could be wrong.

Sure, the writers might be going for that. But this is written from Ander's perspective, in the moment.

Is he really going to sound poetic as he is slaughtering people and not exactly sure what the hell is happening? I am not so sure. 

Then again, Anders always was bard material.

Who knows what goes on inside that man's head.
Isn't it possible that this Vengeance demon could be the first of its kind/type or something?
I don't know as much as other people here about the lore.

[Amagoi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
As far as hierarchy goes i think i prefer the idea it's not so clear-cut... that is, if the number of different demons is increased then it'd be pretty hard to say that "this emotion is always stronger than that one" and such. Not in the least because a rigid hierarchy means we're pretty much never going to face a rage demon that's anything but a pushover etc... it makes these "bottom feeders" less fearsome and less interesting.

Aye true. I am more interested in the concept that demons found hierarchies amongst themselves, something that they might have learned from humans. More so than it actually being too clear cut and set in stone. I liked the fact that a sloth demon for instance had 2 desire demons as lessers for instance.

It would be interesting if Vengeance decides to forge his own Fade kingdom. An ironic twist (a la baroness)

I could see that, but what would his ultimate goal be? The Baroness just wanted more power and to conquer the physical realm. Perhaps Vengeance would have a similiar goal, having a corrupted view of justice now? Would he just... go around brutally righting wrongs? Or would it be more large scale, trying to topple the Chantry for what they did to the Dales for instance.

Could be very interesting, though personally I'd hate for it to go down that road for Justice.

This makes me wonder; how does a spirit get more powerful? Using the Baroness again, she seemed to gain power from the life force of the Blackmarsh citizens trapped in the Fade. Would that work for Vengeance too? Since this is technically the second body he's been in, do they 'level up' as they have more time in the mortal realm and more possessions?

[tmp7704]

Amagoi wrote...

This makes me wonder; how does a spirit get more powerful? Using the Baroness again, she seemed to gain power from the life force of the Blackmarsh citizens trapped in the Fade. Would that work for Vengeance too?

I don't know about the spirits, but the demons seem to get power from feeding on emotion they mold themselves after. So for Vengeance it'd be well, from the act of getting vengeance on all these templars and chantry sisters and whoever else he sees as standing in his way.

... and if that's the case then given the typical bodycount he's going to get over 9000 by the end of the game, no doubt

[KnightofPhoenix]

Amagoi wrote...
I could see that, but what would his ultimate goal be? The Baroness just wanted more power and to conquer the physical realm. Perhaps Vengeance would have a similiar goal, having a corrupted view of justice now? Would he just... go around brutally righting wrongs? Or would it be more large scale, trying to topple the Chantry for what they did to the Dales for instance.

Waits for Vengeanders / Garrus / Batman holy trinity comaprision.

Maybe he wants to found his perfect just utopia in the fade. Or maybe he wants to punish the wrong doers in the fade forever. Make their lives hell basically.

Amagoi wrote...
Could be very interesting, though personally I'd hate for it to go down that road for Justice.

I wouldn't like that either, but I do hope that Hawke has a certain degree of control and influence here. And something that involves more than two options. Like say either encourage the fusion (and influence it in several directions), seperate them, or let Vengeance "assume direct control". Or kill them. 

Amagoi wrote...
This makes me wonder; how does a spirit get more powerful? Using the Baroness again, she seemed to gain power from the life force of the Blackmarsh citizens trapped in the Fade. Would that work for Vengeance too? Since this is technically the second body he's been in, do they 'level up' as they have more time in the mortal realm and more possessions?

I do not know. I could be wrong, but don't demons always seek a better host, as they start to expire? The Baroness didn't expire cause it was in the fade I presume.

[Threeparts]

I would assume that Faith taken to extremes would be something like Credulity or Gullibility. And, well, can you imagine a demon of credulity? He'd be a pale little man with greasy hair and membership to twenty-three different religions, nineteen cults and every single conspiracy theorist forum on the web.

Kind of skeevy, but not actually threatening. 

Modifié par Threeparts, 17 février 2011 - 04:52 .

[Amagoi]

When I think of Faith to the extreme, I think of Fanaticism. But then we'd just have the Fade version of the Spanish Inquisition..

[leggywillow]

Threeparts wrote...

I would assume that Faith taken to extremes would be something like Credulity or Gullibility. And, well, can you imagine a demon of credulity? He'd be a pale little man with greasy hair and membership to twenty-three different religions, nineteen cults and every single conspiracy theorist forum on the web.

Kind of skeevy, but not actually threatening. 

Or possibly Faith could be... Fervor? Zeal?  I don't think either of those 2 words are negative of themselves, but they've gained negative connotations in society these days.  Saying someone is a "zealot" is rarely a compliment, after all.

EDIT:  Amagoi beat me to it; I think "Fanaticism" is the word I was dancing around.

Modifié par leggywillow, 17 février 2011 - 04:57 .

[errant_knight]

leggywillow wrote...

In case this hasn't been posted here, here is Anders's party banter from Awakening.  Yay!

Thanks for the link! I was wanting to hear this again.

[Janele]

Food for thought....

Distraught at the loss of her love, Flemeth plotted revenge against her husband. She summoned a Fade demon, intending for it to wreak vengeance on Conobar, but her spell went awry...
The demon possessed Flemeth, turning her into an abomination. The halls of the castle ran red with blood as Flemeth slaughtered Conobar and all his men.

That's from Leliana's Flemeth story. Flemeth has obviously gained control of her demon when we meet her. This could be something like what's going on with Anders.

Modifié par Janele, 17 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[tmp7704]

Filament wrote...

Blind faith... again, controversy senses tingling... but I might say, if Audacity has an element of Pride... perhaps Blind Faith... a form of Sloth? And I feel like there should be a point about conversion by the tip of the sword, too. Seeking validation from the forced conformity of others. Maybe. That may be something else entirely.

"Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced."

Perhaps Pride demon is actually corrupted Faith, with this in mind. Pride is after all a result of excessive faith in oneself.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Pride is after all a result of excessive faith in oneself.

Pride or arrogance?

We have to remember that those demons are named by humans, presumabely the Chantry. Of course pride is regarded as sin. But I don't think it's negative. It's negative when it becomes excessive, aka arrogance. 

[syllogi]

Janele wrote...

Food for thought....

Distraught at the loss of her love, Flemeth plotted revenge against her husband. She summoned a Fade demon, intending for it to wreak vengeance on Conobar, but her spell went awry...
The demon possessed Flemeth, turning her into an abomination. The halls of the castle ran red with blood as Flemeth slaughtered Conobar and all his men.

That's from Leliana's Flemeth story. Flemeth has obviously gained control of her demon when we meet her. This could be something like what's going on with Anders.

Flemeth not only willingly became an abomination, she must have had other powers, or means of gaining them.  As far as we know, the kinds of powers she exhibits are far beyond regular demons.  Living for thousands of years, jumping from body to body, turning into a dragon at will...it kind of makes me wonder why she would even need an Old God Baby.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TeenZombie wrote...

Janele wrote...

Food for thought....

Distraught at the loss of her love, Flemeth plotted revenge against her husband. She summoned a Fade demon, intending for it to wreak vengeance on Conobar, but her spell went awry...
The demon possessed Flemeth, turning her into an abomination. The halls of the castle ran red with blood as Flemeth slaughtered Conobar and all his men.

That's from Leliana's Flemeth story. Flemeth has obviously gained control of her demon when we meet her. This could be something like what's going on with Anders.

Flemeth not only willingly became an abomination, she must have had other powers, or means of gaining them.  As far as we know, the kinds of powers she exhibits are far beyond regular demons.  Living for thousands of years, jumping from body to body, turning into a dragon at will...it kind of makes me wonder why she would even need an Old God Baby.

According to Morrigan, Flemeth is not an abomination. And "she is not even truly human" can be interpretted as she never was human.

[AtreiyaN7]

leggywillow wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Or it's simply Vengeance's perception of how it tastes. When Justice was in Kristoff, he could hear lyrium "singing" after all.

This could very well be the case.  I think a lot of people are taking things in the short story very, VERY literally when they could simply be metaphors or stylistic/artistic prose.  I think the overall tone of the story is what we should take away from it.

True, but Justice could literally hear the lyrium. As a Fade spirit, he has other senses beyond that of mortals. He even said that everything in this world leaves traces behind like fingerprints. I think that was one of the conversations about Aura or some memento of Kristoff's (meh, don't remember exactly).

However, I would agree that the "honeyed wine" line is probably a metaphor - as in the demon within finds the taste of blood to be pleasing (it doesn't literally taste like honeyed wine). Of course, if demons have a weird sense of taste, I suppose there's a possiblity that it could have been a literal description, heh..

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Pride or arrogance?

We have to remember that those demons are named by humans, presumabely the Chantry. Of course pride is regarded as sin. But I don't think it's negative. It's negative when it becomes excessive, aka arrogance. 

I based that on the concept that arrogance = overbearing pride   As you say, pride may be viewed as something that's isn't actually negative, and so the demon named such may be actually embodiement (so to speak) of arrogance rather than "just" pride.

Then there's alternative of actual separate demon of Arrogance, of course. Who knows.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[Janele]

TeenZombie wrote...

Janele wrote...

Food for thought....

Distraught at the loss of her love, Flemeth plotted revenge against her husband. She summoned a Fade demon, intending for it to wreak vengeance on Conobar, but her spell went awry...
The demon possessed Flemeth, turning her into an abomination. The halls of the castle ran red with blood as Flemeth slaughtered Conobar and all his men.

That's from Leliana's Flemeth story. Flemeth has obviously gained control of her demon when we meet her. This could be something like what's going on with Anders.

Flemeth not only willingly became an abomination, she must have had other powers, or means of gaining them.  As far as we know, the kinds of powers she exhibits are far beyond regular demons.  Living for thousands of years, jumping from body to body, turning into a dragon at will...it kind of makes me wonder why she would even need an Old God Baby.

Yes, but say it was a demon of vengeance.  All those powers just came about afterward.  There was never a mention of any crazy powers beforehand- just that she was a mage and Conobar let her practice in secret.  I just thought the reference was interesting.  I also can't find a copy of Morrigan's story about Flemeth, so I'm just going off of Leliana's.  But anyways, Flemeth didn't actually intend to get possessed- it says the spell went awry.  Kind of like Anders' merging with Justice and everything goes awry...

[syllogi]

Janele wrote...

Yes, but say it was a demon of vengeance.  All those powers just came about afterward.  There was never a mention of any crazy powers beforehand- just that she was a mage and Conobar let her practice in secret.  I just thought the reference was interesting.  I also can't find a copy of Morrigan's story about Flemeth, so I'm just going off of Leliana's.  But anyways, Flemeth didn't actually intend to get possessed- it says the spell went awry.  Kind of like Anders' merging with Justice and everything goes awry...

Here's a youtube of Morrigan's version of the story:  

Flemeth apparently was able to speak to spirits and they would lend her aid, if her story is true.  So she did have very unusual abilities before making her deal with a demon.  I agree with KoP above, I think she's something not yet defined by the lore, more than "just" an abomination.

[Janele]

Or, speaking to the spirits was simply going into the Fade, like most mages can do. And then Morrigan says, "the demon within her has transformed her into... something else." So definitely more than just an abomination, but definitely with a demon in her. Still sounds like Anders to me!

[Miri1984]

Interesting demon and Flemeth talk!

[ThatDancingTurian]

Janele wrote...

Or, speaking to the spirits was simply going into the Fade, like most mages can do. And then Morrigan says, "the demon within her has transformed her into... something else." So definitely more than just an abomination, but definitely with a demon in her. Still sounds like Anders to me!

Okay, I've given Anders the benefit of the doubt so far, but if he starts adopting magically-inclined war orphans and making idle mention of about how they look like they'll grow up to be strong and powerful future hosts, I'm outta there.

I have nothing serious or constructive to add to the demon convo, but I was wondering... How do you guys think the other mages will react to Anders? Do you think he'll be like Uldred and get a bunch of followers? I don't see that working out well with the dynamics of him being a companion and especially an LI, but it would be believable that at least some of these mages would rally behind him. ::suddenly imagines Anders with that harem he always wanted...:: 

Although it's very likely the mages will be too distracted by him being an abomination to be grateful. I'm guessing only the most deranged or anti-Chantry mages would want to go near him if their first impression was witnessing one of Vengeance's gruesome attacks.

Or maybe Vengeance just thinks he doesn't need any one else, he's so focused on the Templars that when they're dead he leaves. I wonder if any mages are going to get caught in the crossfire? I could see people like Wynne sticking up for the Templars.