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[Miri1984]

The implication on the character page is that things are somehow going to change when the Circle of Magi is brought down. Whether that means Justice/Vengeance will leave, or something darker, we'll have to find out at the end of the game I guess .

[Hypallage]

I have nothing to add to the discussion, but, uh, scary!Anders, anyone?



... wait. Would Rolan even be wearing templar armor, here? >__> Oopsie.

Modifié par Hypallage, 17 février 2011 - 08:04 .

[Aviena]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Or maybe Vengeance just thinks he doesn't need any one else, he's so focused on the Templars that when they're dead he leaves.

I haven't lent a great deal of thought to Anders' current situation, but the impression I got when I heard about it was that Justice doesn't really understand the whole Chantry-Circle dynamic. From his dialogue with other Awakening characters, Justice doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on how human emotion, religion or politics affect events in the physical world. For example:

• Justice: This thing you did, the murders of those men in the forest...
  
• Velanna: What of it?
• Justice: What you did was wrong. You must make amends.
  
• Velanna: And to whom should I make these amends? Those humans are dead, if you'll recall.
  
• Justice: You must make amends to humans. It was your condemnation of their race that led to your folly.
• Velanna: I wouldn't expect that to occur anytime soon.

• Justice: So you are a thief?
• Nathaniel: Who, me? Not by profession, my friend.
• Justice: And yet you were imprisoned for attempted theft.
• Nathaniel: Of things that belonged to my family, and which were taken from us unjustly.
• Justice: A likely tale.

It makes me think that Justice (Vengeance?) would give little thought to the practical implications of toppling the Chantry, much less the need for followers or assistance.

[Threeparts]

I would agree with that, Aviena. Justice didn't really have a strong grasp on how society works, as he was so fixated on that one concept that he embodied. I think there's also an argument that he's fairly blind to consequences in general, as he didn't realise how his appearence would affect Aura, or the possibilities of things going wrong with his possession of Anders.
Not something I'd blame him for, as he's not a native of this world and we know how fluid things are in the Fade, but I can't imagine that his foresight has increased now that you add the rage and fire of Vengeance to his rather blinkered vision.

And now I have that part with the hermit from The Life of Brian stuck in my head, with Hawke trying to shut Vengeance up while they're hiding from the Templars.

@Hypallage: that's one creepy smile Anders has going there. 

Modifié par Threeparts, 17 février 2011 - 08:32 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Eep!

[Miri1984]

@Threeparts Oh god, laughing my head off with a vision of Justice wearing nothing but a long beard hopping from foot to foot screeching THOSE ARE MY JUNIPER BERRIES, this is not JUST.

[Eshaye]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I do not know. I could be wrong, but don't demons always seek a better host, as they start to expire? The Baroness didn't expire cause it was in the fade I presume.

In Awakening that was implied and yet... What of Sophia Dryden? She was a corpse for a long time and inhabited by a demon, she only rotted so much. Maybe that demon knew how to stop the body from decaying too much? I smell plot hole. OR Sophia drank some of the stuff Avernus was making at one point and that was the cause. 

TeenZombie wrote...
Here's a youtube of Morrigan's version of the story:  

Flemeth apparently was able to speak to spirits and they would lend her aid, if her story is true.  So she did have very unusual abilities before making her deal with a demon.  I agree with KoP above, I think she's something not yet defined by the lore, more than "just" an abomination.

In Witch Hunt Morrigan revises her opinion, that's when she says Flemeth never was truly human. 

[syllogi]

Eshaye wrote...

In Witch Hunt Morrigan revises her opinion, that's when she says Flemeth never was truly human. 

Ahh, I only just got Witch Hunt, and I haven't played it yet.  I should probably do that.

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Okay, I've given Anders the benefit of the doubt so far, but if he starts adopting magically-inclined war orphans and making idle mention of about how they look like they'll grow up to be strong and powerful future hosts, I'm outta there. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

I have nothing serious or constructive to add to the demon convo, but I was wondering... How do you guys think the other mages will react to Anders? Do you think he'll be like Uldred and get a bunch of followers? I don't see that working out well with the dynamics of him being a companion and especially an LI, but it would be believable that at least some of these mages would rally behind him. ::suddenly imagines Anders with that harem he always wanted...:: [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Although it's very likely the mages will be too distracted by him being an abomination to be grateful. I'm guessing only the most deranged or anti-Chantry mages would want to go near him if their first impression was witnessing one of Vengeance's gruesome attacks.

Or maybe Vengeance just thinks he doesn't need any one else, he's so focused on the Templars that when they're dead he leaves. I wonder if any mages are going to get caught in the crossfire? I could see people like Wynne sticking up for the Templars.

This is something I hadn't considered before, but it would make sense to rally an army if he's trying to start a revolution, wouldn't it?  I would worry about that...

One thing I realized last night while watching the youtube footage of the demo, was that whatever else happens during the game, at or near the end the Mage/Templar fight can't be over, if Cassandra has enough clout to have her lackeys drag Varric in.  The Chantry appears to be weakened, no matter what, but it hasn't been toppled.

So does anyone even think it's possible to give Vengeance what it wants in this game, if it's even satisfied with *just* winning mages their freedom?  It may just be like DA:O, where you can think you've made a difference, but in the end the Chantry is far bigger and more powerful than your character's influence.

[Eshaye]

TeenZombie wrote...
So does anyone even think it's possible to give Vengeance what it wants in this game, if it's even satisfied with *just* winning mages their freedom?  It may just be like DA:O, where you can think you've made a difference, but in the end the Chantry is far bigger and more powerful than your character's influence.

I think it's possible to break the circle from the chantry but not eradicate the templars or even the chantry completely. Even if the templars were told to leave mages alone or die, I don't think they would just go away. It's possible that if you free the mages you start an exalted march, or they are so crippled they become a sort of guerrilla organisation. 

Oh the speculation! I wanna play! 

edit: Oh right about Justice, since he's a demon now, no I don't think he would be satisfied with stopping there anymore. I think most agree we'll have to find a way to get rid of him, or heal him or something. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 17 février 2011 - 02:04 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

I don't know if they could completely topple the Chantry in the course of one game. It would take something like an exposing of truth to shake a religious foundation like that. However, ridding Kirkwall of its pseudo-Templar rule might be a start, or perhaps Hawke might somehow inspire an uprising?

*listens to that latest Muse album*

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 02:01 .

[Phate Phoenix]

@TeenZombie

A part of me thinks that maybe giving Vengeance what he wants might get him to loose his hold on Anders enough that you could separate them. The other part thinks that allowing Vengeance this would cement his place in Anders instead.

Maybe, instead of feeding Vengeance, we have to sooth Anders? If Anders' anger and resentment and feelings of betrayal are what tipped Justice into becoming Vengeance, maybe getting Anders to let go would weaken him? Granted, then it would turn into a "TALK ABOUT YOUR FEEEEELINGSSS~" moment as well as "LOVE HEALS ALL OLD WOUNDS" which might end up being utterly corny. ...Which doesn't stop me from wanting to see it.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Phate Phoenix wrote...

@TeenZombie

A part of me thinks that maybe giving Vengeance what he wants might get him to loose his hold on Anders enough that you could separate them. The other part thinks that allowing Vengeance this would cement his place in Anders instead.

Maybe, instead of feeding Vengeance, we have to sooth Anders? If Anders' anger and resentment and feelings of betrayal are what tipped Justice into becoming Vengeance, maybe getting Anders to let go would weaken him? Granted, then it would turn into a "TALK ABOUT YOUR FEEEEELINGSSS~" moment as well as "LOVE HEALS ALL OLD WOUNDS" which might end up being utterly corny. ...Which doesn't stop me from wanting to see it.

I was thinking about this, too.  Their feelings are now nearly one and the same, correct?  If Justice's corruption was due to Anders's own feelings and memories of oppression, wouldn't the way to heal Justice is to more or less influence Anders to think differently?  Or is Vengeance too far gone?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 02:06 .

[Eshaye]

RinjiRenee wrote...
I was thinking about this, too.  Their feelings are now nearly one and the same, correct?  If Justice's corruption was due to Anders's own feelings and memories of oppression, wouldn't the way to heal Justice is to more or less influence Anders to think differently?

And this is where the romance makes sense, Lady Hawke will make Anders feel ALL better. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 17 février 2011 - 02:06 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Eshaye wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
I was thinking about this, too.  Their feelings are now nearly one and the same, correct?  If Justice's corruption was due to Anders's own feelings and memories of oppression, wouldn't the way to heal Justice is to more or less influence Anders to think differently?

And this is where the romance makes sense, Lady Hawke will make Anders feel ALL better. 

Well even in a friendship sense it could work, too.  I think Hawke is going to have a chance to get to know Anders and then try to convince him that 1) he's not alone, and/or 2) he's not a bad person at his core (yes, he has done some really messed up things, but he does regret them).  But this is all much too sappy for to completely believable for a Dragon Age game.

I live in a Disney kind of world, it's not appropriate. 

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 02:11 .

[Eshaye]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Well even in a friendship sense it could work, too.  I think Hawke is going to have a chance to get to know Anders and then try to convince him that 1) he's not alone, and/or 2) he's not a bad person at his core.  But this is all much too sappy for to completely believable for a Dragon Age game.

I live in a Disney kind of world, it's not appropriate. 

Oh for sure, I'm just squeeing... 
I don't think that's too sappy, with Morrigan if you befriend her she gets remorseful and sad, that's actually what made me like her. I was raising her approval for the heck of it and I didn't like her at first, but then she pulls this "I've never had a friend before" and I wanted to giver her a hug. 

Though this being Dragon Age something horrible is bound to happen to balance out the sap.. This I believe. 

[moilami]

Aviena wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Or maybe Vengeance just thinks he doesn't need any one else, he's so focused on the Templars that when they're dead he leaves.

I haven't lent a great deal of thought to Anders' current situation, but the impression I got when I heard about it was that Justice doesn't really understand the whole Chantry-Circle dynamic. From his dialogue with other Awakening characters, Justice doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on how human emotion, religion or politics affect events in the physical world. For example:



It makes me think that Justice (Vengeance?) would give little thought to the practical implications of toppling the Chantry, much less the need for followers or assistance.

You are misunderstanding justice. It is not justice's job to think about concequences. Lets say there is a king who slays people and if he gets killed, then his son will become a new king who kills even more people. What would justice do? Justice would do justice and slay the king. Then the prince would become the new king and justice would slay him.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Anders's former friendships in Awakening are probably more or less nonexistent now that he's done the things that he has done. And of course any friends he might have had in the Circle are long gone as well. (AND WHAT ABOUT THE CAT? That's really tragic imo.) And then there was whole line out of the LI introduction that indicated that he feels like he can't belong anywhere anymore. I think it might be touched upon in DA2.



Yeah, Morrigan warmed up surprisingly well (well, after giving her all that bling anyway). When she made the comment to my Warden about being like a sister I was like, "... aww... :/" And then the whole Witch Hunt ending made me kinda sad for her, too.



People can surprise you like that. Anders will probably be no exception.

[SurelyForth]

Threeparts wrote...

I would agree with that, Aviena. Justice didn't really have a strong grasp on how society works, as he was so fixated on that one concept that he embodied. I think there's also an argument that he's fairly blind to consequences in general, as he didn't realise how his appearence would affect Aura, or the possibilities of things going wrong with his possession of Anders.

Not something I'd blame him for, as he's not a native of this world and we know how fluid things are in the Fade, but I can't imagine that his foresight has increased now that you add the rage and fire of Vengeance to his rather blinkered vision.

To be fair, it takes Aura a shamefully long time to realize that her husband looks like a corpse.

Snark aside, Justice strikes me as being so in the moment that he fails to grasp, as you point out, consequences or even perspective. He thinks you should execute Velanna for what she did to the humans, but she did it because she was tricked into thinking they killed her clanmates and took her sister. Had he met her before she went on her rampage, he would have probably suggested that she do the very thing he'd condemn her for later.

What would of happened had, say, Cullen been recruited in Awakening instead of Anders? The stories he'd tell would be how Uldred became an abomination and tortured mages and templars alike. Then Justice would probably be on the opposite side of the issue, having had it filtered through a different perspective. Heck, maybe we'll meet a templar who is ALSO possessed by another Vengeance demon, fueled because mages killed his family or tortured him or something.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 17 février 2011 - 02:27 .

[moilami]

Eshaye wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
So does anyone even think it's possible to give Vengeance what it wants in this game, if it's even satisfied with *just* winning mages their freedom?  It may just be like DA:O, where you can think you've made a difference, but in the end the Chantry is far bigger and more powerful than your character's influence.

I think it's possible to break the circle from the chantry but not eradicate the templars or even the chantry completely. Even if the templars were told to leave mages alone or die, I don't think they would just go away. It's possible that if you free the mages you start an exalted march, or they are so crippled they become a sort of guerrilla organisation. 

Oh the speculation! I wanna play! 

edit: Oh right about Justice, since he's a demon now, no I don't think he would be satisfied with stopping there anymore. I think most agree we'll have to find a way to get rid of him, or heal him or something. 

How could you stop Justice killing a king who is slaying people in the name of maker? Make him ignorance demon? Which possibly should be the most powerful demon in the realm lol.

[moilami]

SurelyForth wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

I would agree with that, Aviena. Justice didn't really have a strong grasp on how society works, as he was so fixated on that one concept that he embodied. I think there's also an argument that he's fairly blind to consequences in general, as he didn't realise how his appearence would affect Aura, or the possibilities of things going wrong with his possession of Anders.

Not something I'd blame him for, as he's not a native of this world and we know how fluid things are in the Fade, but I can't imagine that his foresight has increased now that you add the rage and fire of Vengeance to his rather blinkered vision.

To be fair, it takes Aura a shamefully long time to realize that her husband looks like a corpse.

Snark aside, Justice strikes me as being so in the moment that he fails to grasp, as you point out, consequences or even perspective. He thinks you should execute Velanna for what she did to the humans, but she did it because she was tricked into thinking they killed her clanmates and took her sister. Had he met her before she went on her rampage, he would have probably suggested that she do the very thing he'd condemn her for later.

What would of happened had, say, Cullen been recruited in Awakening instead of Anders? The stories he'd tell would be how Uldred became an abomination and tortured mages and templars alike. Then Justice would probably be on the opposite side of the issue, having had it filtered through a different perspective. Heck, maybe we'll meet a templar who is ALSO possessed by another Vengeance demon, fueled because mages killed his family or tortured him or something.

Justice was right in judging Velanna. The fact does not change that you did the wrong thing even if you believed you did the right thing. He could however had given mercy to Velanna after judging she wont do it again (something what vengeance would not give).

With your chantry example Justice would ask "why did this happen". And the answer is because mages fought for justice. So Justice could not judge mages are to blame.

Modifié par moilami, 17 février 2011 - 02:40 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

SurelyForth wrote...

Snark aside, Justice strikes me as being so in the moment that he fails to grasp, as you point out, consequences or even perspective. He thinks you should execute Velanna for what she did to the humans, but she did it because she was tricked into thinking they killed her clanmates and took her sister. Had he met her before she went on her rampage, he would have probably suggested that she do the very thing he'd condemn her for later.

What would of happened had, say, Cullen been recruited in Awakening instead of Anders? The stories he'd tell would be how Uldred became an abomination and tortured mages and templars alike. Then Justice would probably be on the opposite side of the issue, having had it filtered through a different perspective. Heck, maybe we'll meet a templar who is ALSO possessed by another Vengeance demon, fueled because mages killed his family or tortured him or something.

This.  There was some dialogue later on that seemed to have Justice finally understanding Velanna, too:

Velanna: What sort of atonement would be appropriate?

Justice: You have reconsidered, then?

Velanna: I am simply curious to hear what you think would be suitable.

Justice: Teach them. Show these humans what they are so carelessly destroying.

Velanna: And if they do not listen?

Justice: Then you have done what you could.

Velanna: It's... worth thinking about

See, he wanted justice done upon her, but yet, he finally heard her out and then seemed to encourage her own cause as well.  But curiously he did not encourage any violence.  I think having possessed Anders and then making Anders' thoughts and feelings his own was what encouraged the violent aspect of Vengeance.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 02:43 .

[moilami]

RinjiRenee wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Snark aside, Justice strikes me as being so in the moment that he fails to grasp, as you point out, consequences or even perspective. He thinks you should execute Velanna for what she did to the humans, but she did it because she was tricked into thinking they killed her clanmates and took her sister. Had he met her before she went on her rampage, he would have probably suggested that she do the very thing he'd condemn her for later.

What would of happened had, say, Cullen been recruited in Awakening instead of Anders? The stories he'd tell would be how Uldred became an abomination and tortured mages and templars alike. Then Justice would probably be on the opposite side of the issue, having had it filtered through a different perspective. Heck, maybe we'll meet a templar who is ALSO possessed by another Vengeance demon, fueled because mages killed his family or tortured him or something.

This.  There was some dialogue later on that seemed to have Justice finally understanding Velanna, too:

Velanna: What sort of atonement would be appropriate?

Justice: You have reconsidered, then?

Velanna: I am simply curious to hear what you think would be suitable.

Justice: Teach them. Show these humans what they are so carelessly destroying.

Velanna: And if they do not listen?

Justice: Then you have done what you could.

Velanna: It's... worth thinking about

See, he wanted justice done upon her, but yet, he finally heard her out and then seemed to encourage her own cause as well.  But curiously he did not encourage any violence.  I think having possessed Anders and then making Anders' thoughts and feelings his own was what encouraged the violent aspect of Vengeance.

To me that looks like "amends". Not sure what that word means but lets replace it with a word "compensate". It is basic principle of justice. Velanna was guilty and justice had to be done, and in Velanna's case it could be giving mercy to her in case she compensates and does not do it again.

[Rinji the Bearded]

moilami wrote...

To me that looks like "amends". Not sure what that word means but lets replace it with a word "compensate". It is basic principle of justice. Velanna was guilty and justice had to be done, and in Velanna's case it could be giving mercy to her in case she compensates and does not do it again.

Good point!  And I wonder if the new Vengeance could ever remember a thing like mercy.  However, I don't know if mercy and justice ever go hand in hand.  There is the whole atonement thing that I guess could blur the lines between those two virtues, but justice by its definition has no room for it.  Still, it's a thought to ponder.  He did seem to have a more non-violent view on compensation.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 03:01 .

[Malu Cap]

RinjiRenee wrote...

moilami wrote...

To me that looks like "amends". Not sure what that word means but lets replace it with a word "compensate". It is basic principle of justice. Velanna was guilty and justice had to be done, and in Velanna's case it could be giving mercy to her in case she compensates and does not do it again.

Good point!  And I wonder if the new Vengeance could ever remember a thing like mercy.  However, I don't know if mercy and justice ever go hand in hand.  There is the whole atonement thing that I guess could blur the lines between those two virtues, but justice by its definition has no room for it.  Still, it's a thought to ponder.  He did seem to have a more non-violent view on compensation.

I don't know...I think justice without mercy is nothing more than an eye for an eye kind of deal, which is basically retribution or vengeance. 

[SurelyForth]

moilami wrote...
With your chantry example Justice would ask "why did this happen". And the answer is because mages fought for justice. So Justice could not judge mages are to blame.

Were Justice to ask Cullen why the mages rebelled, he would NOT say they were fighting for justice because from his perspective, what the Chantry does to mages is totally justified.

RinjiRenee wrote...
See, he wanted justice done upon her, but yet, he finally heard her out and then seemed to encourage her own cause as well.  But curiously he did not encourage any violence.  I think having possessed Anders and then making Anders' thoughts and feelings his own was what encouraged the violent aspect of Vengeance.

I wonder, though, if Justice's increasing desire to see the mages freed wasn't already pulling him down the road towards vengeance, and merging with Anders' experiences made it literally catch fire and happen almost immediately.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 17 février 2011 - 03:28 .