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[Herr Uhl]

SurelyForth wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
See, he wanted justice done upon her, but yet, he finally heard her out and then seemed to encourage her own cause as well.  But curiously he did not encourage any violence.  I think having possessed Anders and then making Anders' thoughts and feelings his own was what encouraged the violent aspect of Vengeance.

I wonder, though, if Justice's increasing desire to see the mages freed wasn't already pulling him down the road towards vengeance, and merging with Anders' experiences made it literally catch fire and happen almost immediately.

When he starts out, he didn't give a damn about mortals and the mortal world. Then he saw the injustice of the baroness. He wanted to do justice in the fade, as he still didn't give a damn about the mortal world. Then he is forced into the world and starts to like it, and take up the causes of mortals.

He has had quite a journey before merging with Anders. That he became more vindictive could be a step that was bound to happen anyways.

[Rinji the Bearded]

SurelyForth wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
See, he wanted justice done upon her, but yet, he finally heard her out and then seemed to encourage her own cause as well.  But curiously he did not encourage any violence.  I think having possessed Anders and then making Anders' thoughts and feelings his own was what encouraged the violent aspect of Vengeance.

I wonder, though, if Justice's increasing desire to see the mages freed wasn't already pulling him down the road towards vengeance, and merging with Anders' experiences made it literally catch fire and happen almost immediately.

I wonder that, too.  He was already talking to Anders about it before.  And it looked like he approached Anders about it willingly.  They couldn't have predicted what would happen when they merged like that, perhaps?

Herr Uhl wrote...

When he starts out, he didn't give a
damn about mortals and the mortal world. Then he saw the injustice of
the baroness. He wanted to do justice in the fade, as he still didn't
give a damn about the mortal world. Then he is forced into the world and
starts to like it, and take up the causes of mortals.

He has had
quite a journey before merging with Anders. That he became more
vindictive could be a step that was bound to happen anyways.

Yes.  I think he mentioned to Velanna that he didn't want to leave Kristoff's body necessarily, or even go back to the Fade.  Spirits are more disconnected from the mortal world than demons are, but after experiencing the mortal world for himself (and even the lingering feelings of Kristoff for his wife and etc) it's like he has found more meaning and usefulness.

A thought occurred to me, though it might be a little too pie-in-the-sky for some people's tastes.  Heck, someone might have even mentioned it before.  If Justice was so intrigued by Kristoff's feelings for his wife, would he ever begrudge Anders the same thing for a potential love interest?  If he suddenly sensed that Anders was developing feelings for Hawke, would he not want Anders to go ahead and pursue them?  It might fascinate him.

Ah, don't mind me.  I'm a fangirl. 

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 03:39 .

[tmp7704]

TeenZombie wrote...

This is something I hadn't considered before, but it would make sense to rally an army if he's trying to start a revolution, wouldn't it?  I would worry about that...

Possessed Uldred was trying to do similar thing during the circle breakdown in DAO so that's a possibility. Although maybe that's to some degree influenced by the host, and in case of Anders it'd be instead army of possessed cats, or smth.

[Wedger]

that army of cats in Denerim might be a good start

[moilami]

RinjiRenee wrote...

moilami wrote...

To me that looks like "amends". Not sure what that word means but lets replace it with a word "compensate". It is basic principle of justice. Velanna was guilty and justice had to be done, and in Velanna's case it could be giving mercy to her in case she compensates and does not do it again.

Good point!  And I wonder if the new Vengeance could ever remember a thing like mercy.  However, I don't know if mercy and justice ever go hand in hand.  There is the whole atonement thing that I guess could blur the lines between those two virtues, but justice by its definition has no room for it.  Still, it's a thought to ponder.  He did seem to have a more non-violent view on compensation.

Vengeance does not go hand in hand with mercy, ever. At least haven't yet found an example saying the opposite. So this new Vengeance should be merciless. Justice on the other hand can often go hand in hand with vengeance. And if justice would not be able to go hand in hand with mercy, then justice would be just vengeance.

This atonement you mentioned makes it possible to give mercy instead of just being ignorant or vengeful. And if you give mercy, you still judged someone was guilty. So mercy and justice can go hand in hand, and mercy is needed to separate justice from vengeance.

[Sabriel.]

RinjiRenee wrote...

A thought occurred to me, though it might be a little too pie-in-the-sky for some people's tastes.  Heck, someone might have even mentioned it before.  If Justice was so intrigued by Kristoff's feelings for his wife, would he ever begrudge Anders the same thing for a potential love interest?  If he suddenly sensed that Anders was developing feelings for Hawke, would he not want Anders to go ahead and pursue them?  It might fascinate him.

Ah, don't mind me.  I'm a fangirl. 

Well, maybe back when Justice was nice old Justice. But as Vengeance? We'll see, though it seems to me like Vengeance would be more "No Distractions!" It's something to think about, though.

[Taleroth]

Justice never seemed merciful to me. Nathaniel, Valenna, the Architect, he wanted them all imprisoned or killed. You even lose influence with him freeing the prisoners down in the dungeons who are surrounded by darkspawn.



He's a stickler, that one.

[moilami]

moilami wrote...
With your chantry example Justice would ask "why did this happen". And the answer is because mages fought for justice. So Justice could not judge mages are to blame.

SurelyForth wrote...
Were Justice to ask Cullen why the mages rebelled, he would NOT say they were fighting for justice because from his perspective, what the Chantry does to mages is totally justified.

Just curious, what would had Cullen answered then? Remember we can suppose Cullen was aware of those arch types "liberationalist" and so on, and would had thus been able to identify mages being liberalists fighting for freedom and as such for justice.

Anyway, Justice would not had asked anything from Cullen as definitive answer. Justice is the judge, not Cullen.

RinjiRenee wrote...
See, he wanted justice done upon her, but yet, he finally heard her out and then seemed to encourage her own cause as well.  But curiously he did not encourage any violence.  I think having possessed Anders and then making Anders' thoughts and feelings his own was what encouraged the violent aspect of Vengeance.

SurelyForth wrote...
I wonder, though, if Justice's increasing desire to see the mages freed wasn't already pulling him down the road towards vengeance, and merging with Anders' experiences made it literally catch fire and happen almost immediately.

Justice without vengeance is teethless. You can't just say Justice is Vengeance if Justice wants to deal with chantry problem. Chantry is no different to a king slaying innocent, and if you say Justice can't take any actions without being vengeance you are just calling justice to be ignorant.

Modifié par moilami, 17 février 2011 - 04:03 .

[moilami]

Taleroth wrote...

Justice never seemed merciful to me. Nathaniel, Valenna, the Architect, he wanted them all imprisoned or killed. You even lose influence with him freeing the prisoners down in the dungeons who are surrounded by darkspawn.

He's a stickler, that one.

Was not very merciful in my eye either. I have said very long time that to me he looks like desire demon. Real Justice should had released the body he was possessing when the wife of the body did not like to see the corpse. The wife held more rights to the body than Justice.

Anyway justice is not supposed to give mercy to everyone. There are situations when Justice just can't give mercy. Like with (mindless) Darkspawn.

[syllogi]

moilami wrote...

Justice without vengeance is teethless. You can't just say Justice is Vengeance if Justice wants to deal with chantry problem. Chantry is no different to a king slaying innocent, and if you say Justice can't take any actions without being vengeance you are just calling justice to be ignorant.

Haha, as someone who works with lawyers, I would say that justice, as a concept, is more about maintaining order and the morals and rules of society.  You can definitely have justice without vengeance, if the issue has a peaceful solution.   

What is more fitting as a punishment for littering on a sidewalk: a fine, a beating, or making the offender clean up his mess?  A fine might help the government of the community prosper, a beating might make the offender far less likely to litter again and deter others from doing the same, and making the offender clean might seem like the most fitting punishment.  But all of these have downsides -- the fine might be excessive, or people might not pay it, beatings might be against other laws, and making the person clean the street means that someone else needs to be paid to supervise, and make sure they do it.  It may not be glamorous or exciting, but this is an example of justice...a society agreeing upon how order is maintained. 

[Eshaye]

Mynnymac wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

A thought occurred to me, though it might be a little too pie-in-the-sky for some people's tastes.  Heck, someone might have even mentioned it before.  If Justice was so intrigued by Kristoff's feelings for his wife, would he ever begrudge Anders the same thing for a potential love interest?  If he suddenly sensed that Anders was developing feelings for Hawke, would he not want Anders to go ahead and pursue them?  It might fascinate him.

Ah, don't mind me.  I'm a fangirl. 

Well, maybe back when Justice was nice old Justice. But as Vengeance? We'll see, though it seems to me like Vengeance would be more "No Distractions!" It's something to think about, though.

I was thinking about that, I don't think Vengeance would really care, and the thing is I don't think Vengeance is like Justice where the spirit had it's own thoughts, now he IS Anders so I believe that part of Anders would just slumber. NOW if Hawke breaks Anders's heart, THEN I would see a problem.... 

[SurelyForth]

moilami wrote...

Just curious, what would had Cullen answered then? Remember we can suppose Cullen was aware of those arch types "liberationalist" and so on, and would had thus been able to identify mages being liberalists fighting for freedom and as such for justice.

Anyway, Justice would not had asked anything from Cullen as definitive answer. Justice is the judge, not Cullen.

But, in Cullen's case, even if he knew about the fraternities, he'd not be able to give any response that wasn't heavily, heavily biased towards the whole mages are evil things.

And my entire point is that Justice is the judge, but from what we see in the game, his responses are kneejerk and he doesn't seek out explanations or alternatives until much later and he does go to the biased source, as he did with Velanna and Nathaniel.

[moilami]

TeenZombie wrote...

moilami wrote...

Justice without vengeance is teethless. You can't just say Justice is Vengeance if Justice wants to deal with chantry problem. Chantry is no different to a king slaying innocent, and if you say Justice can't take any actions without being vengeance you are just calling justice to be ignorant.

Haha, as someone who works with lawyers, I would say that justice, as a concept, is more about maintaining order and the morals and rules of society.  You can definitely have justice without vengeance, if the issue has a peaceful solution.   

What is more fitting as a punishment for littering on a sidewalk: a fine, a beating, or making the offender clean up his mess?  A fine might help the government of the community prosper, a beating might make the offender far less likely to litter again and deter others from doing the same, and making the offender clean might seem like the most fitting punishment.  But all of these have downsides -- the fine might be excessive, or people might not pay it, beatings might be against other laws, and making the person clean the street means that someone else needs to be paid to supervise, and make sure they do it.  It may not be glamorous or exciting, but this is an example of justice...a society agreeing upon how order is maintained. 

Can I ask how proud you feel when you say you work with lawyers? How high does it rise you? If you read my postings before you would see I wrote there about what makes the difference between justice and vengeance, and how the elf mage deserved to get justice in the form of mercy rather than in the form of vengeance.

And you can just toss your real world concepts to the bin when dealing with spirit of justice. If 1000 orcs yell you to kill an elf it is not justice to kill the elf. Or if 1000 Drow yell to sacrifice a Drow male who did not bow to female, it is not justice to kill him in the name of public peace, traditions, morals, or rules. Or lets make one very simple example you just have to understand. It is not justice to stone to death a woman blamed of having sex with a man, and that happens in real world. Hello World?

I did not read the second paragraph you wrote since the first paragraph showed you have to rethink many things. I also stop discussing now and go play some ME.


Edit: Lol, should had mentioned I have had a Lawyer GF. Try beat that!

Modifié par moilami, 17 février 2011 - 04:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
When he starts out, he didn't give a damn about mortals and the mortal world. Then he saw the injustice of the baroness. He wanted to do justice in the fade, as he still didn't give a damn about the mortal world. Then he is forced into the world and starts to like it, and take up the causes of mortals.

He has had quite a journey before merging with Anders. That he became more vindictive could be a step that was bound to happen anyways.

In Awakening, it almost, almost sounded like he was being enlightened. That he realized that the real world doesn't function like the dualistic fade. At the same time, he was evidently confused and distressed.

I do hope that we can influence Justice to stop being Vengeance, but I don't want him to go back to being Justice, it would negate his "journey of discovery" and his experience in the real world. I'd prefer to make him into the Spirit of Order.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 février 2011 - 05:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

moilami wrote...
 It is not justice to etc etc

Specify, it's not justice in your opinion.
There are societies who have no problem believing that this is justice. 

[syllogi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
When he starts out, he didn't give a damn about mortals and the mortal world. Then he saw the injustice of the baroness. He wanted to do justice in the fade, as he still didn't give a damn about the mortal world. Then he is forced into the world and starts to like it, and take up the causes of mortals.

He has had quite a journey before merging with Anders. That he became more vindictive could be a step that was bound to happen anyways.

In Awakening, it almost, almost sounded like he was being enlightened. That he realized that the real world doesn't function like the dualistic fade. At the same time, he was evidently confused and distressed.

I do hope that we can incluence Justice to stop being Vengeance, but I don't want him to go back to being Justice, it would negate his "jounrey of discovery" and his experience in the real world. I'd prefer to make him into the Spirit of Order.

This actually would be pretty cool.  If Justice can change in a "negative" way into Vengeance, it stands to reason that it can evolve further.

@moilami:  Maybe it's a misunderstanding of language, but I was not "bragging" about my job.  It's very boring and tedious.  I just think that there are many ways to look at the concept of Justice.

[Rinji the Bearded]

moilami wrote...

Edit: Lol, should had mentioned I have had a Lawyer GF. Try beat that!

I work for a Judge that has jurisdiction over criminal, civil, and family law matters? He makes all of his decisions based on how he interprets the law.  He can take no sides until he has made a decision, and deals punishment or judgment in accordance to the law.  He cannot deal anything more than the prescribed maximum penalty.  Vengeance, on the other hand, has no need for that.  The punishment will not fit the crime.

Do some Templars/Chantry leaders deserve death for their abuse of power?  Maybe.  Do Mages deserve justice as well as any other person?  I think so.  But does every chantry leader/mother and Templar who happen to defend the Chantry for whatever reason deserve to be roasted and/or mutilated?

Probably not.  Moral dilemmas!

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 05:13 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Eshaye wrote...

I was thinking about that, I don't think Vengeance would really care, and the thing is I don't think Vengeance is like Justice where the spirit had it's own thoughts, now he IS Anders so I believe that part of Anders would just slumber. NOW if Hawke breaks Anders's heart, THEN I would see a problem....

I've seen someone else bring this up before, and I gotta say I reeeeeally do not like it. I even saw mention that Vengeance might make him attack Hawke for breaking up or cheating on him. Physical assault for breaking up with him? Ugh, I'd hate BioWare if they put that in. I would never forgive them for that and that to me seems worse than anything he could do as Vengeance alone, because it would have to be at least partly because of his own feelings.

I'd prefer to think given his distraction with the templars and the fact that he's probably going to feel immensely guilty being close with anyone anyway, he'd be very understanding or at least dismissive if you were to break up with him. It might push him further from humanity by making him want to bury those feelings, but I don't think he'd truly begrudge Hawke. If anything he'd probably say something like, "Fine, now I don't have to worry about you."

[Rinji the Bearded]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

I was thinking about that, I don't think Vengeance would really care, and the thing is I don't think Vengeance is like Justice where the spirit had it's own thoughts, now he IS Anders so I believe that part of Anders would just slumber. NOW if Hawke breaks Anders's heart, THEN I would see a problem....

I've seen someone else bring this up before, and I gotta say I reeeeeally do not like it. I even saw mention that Vengeance might make him attack Hawke for breaking up or cheating on him. Physical assault for breaking up with him? Ugh, I'd hate BioWare if they put that in. I would never forgive them for that and that to me seems worse than anything he could do as Vengeance alone, because it would have to be at least partly because of his own feelings.

I'd prefer to think given his distraction with the templars and the fact that he's probably going to feel immensely guilty being close with anyone anyway, he'd be very understanding or at least dismissive if you were to break up with him. It might push him further from humanity by making him want to bury those feelings, but I don't think he'd truly begrudge Hawke. If anything he'd probably say something like, "Fine, now I don't have to worry about you."

Yeah, no rage beatings please.  Now, if you were to yell at him "I'M BREAKING UP WITH YOU AND THE TEMPLARS ARE RIGHT AND MAGES SUCK", that might make him a little upset?  But I somehow doubt that will be a dialogue option.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 17 février 2011 - 05:35 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Yeah, no rage beatings please.  Now, if you were to yell at him "I'M BREAKING UP WITH YOU AND THE TEMPLARS ARE RIGHT AND MAGES SUCK", that might make him a little upset?  But I somehow doubt that will be a dialogue option.

rofl! I would hope not. Unless of course Hawke is a believer of the Bender method.

"Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating."

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
When he starts out, he didn't give a damn about mortals and the mortal world. Then he saw the injustice of the baroness. He wanted to do justice in the fade, as he still didn't give a damn about the mortal world. Then he is forced into the world and starts to like it, and take up the causes of mortals.

He has had quite a journey before merging with Anders. That he became more vindictive could be a step that was bound to happen anyways.

In Awakening, it almost, almost sounded like he was being enlightened. That he realized that the real world doesn't function like the dualistic fade. At the same time, he was evidently confused and distressed.

He was distressed because he didn't want it due to that it would be demonic in nature, as in wanting to explore the mortal world (that is his own definition of what separates spirits from demons IIRC). Embracing it might have given the push. I doubt he'll be regretting of taking over Anders body, slaying the templars and drinking their blood.

I do hope that we can influence Justice to stop being Vengeance, but I don't want him to go back to being Justice, it would negate his "journey of discovery" and his experience in the real world. I'd prefer to make him into the Spirit of Order.

Well, that is one of the possibilities that I see as possible for resolving Anders problem. That, getting rid of Vengeance, waiting until they merge completely or killing them.

[Eshaye]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

I was thinking about that, I don't think Vengeance would really care, and the thing is I don't think Vengeance is like Justice where the spirit had it's own thoughts, now he IS Anders so I believe that part of Anders would just slumber. NOW if Hawke breaks Anders's heart, THEN I would see a problem....

I've seen someone else bring this up before, and I gotta say I reeeeeally do not like it. I even saw mention that Vengeance might make him attack Hawke for breaking up or cheating on him. Physical assault for breaking up with him? Ugh, I'd hate BioWare if they put that in. I would never forgive them for that and that to me seems worse than anything he could do as Vengeance alone, because it would have to be at least partly because of his own feelings.

I'd prefer to think given his distraction with the templars and the fact that he's probably going to feel immensely guilty being close with anyone anyway, he'd be very understanding or at least dismissive if you were to break up with him. It might push him further from humanity by making him want to bury those feelings, but I don't think he'd truly begrudge Hawke. If anything he'd probably say something like, "Fine, now I don't have to worry about you."

Yeah, no rage beatings please.  Now, if you were to yell at him "I'M BREAKING UP WITH YOU AND THE TEMPLARS ARE RIGHT AND MAGES SUCK", that might make him a little upset?  But I somehow doubt that will be a dialogue option.

I doubt that would be in the game too, but even then I don't find it inconceivable that Anders would turn on you if you cheat/dump him. Jealousy is a strong trigger for vengeance. Similar to Zevran's betrayal if his approval is low enough. Not saying it's actually going to happen, but I see the possibility of something down that line. Like Zevran and Sten the PC takes a high risk taking them on. 

[moilami]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

moilami wrote...
 It is not justice to etc etc

Specify, it's not justice in your opinion.
There are societies who have no problem believing that this is justice. 

Yeah, and my opinion is what matters to me.

If your opinion is what gives most $$$ is justice, then that is your opinion. You are free to have it.


Edit: For example you are free to think that "if I kill that helples elder and profit $1000 of it, then justice has been done". Go ahead, I am not saying you can't think so. It is your brains!

Modifié par moilami, 17 février 2011 - 06:26 .

[leggywillow]

Threeparts wrote...

And now I have that part with the hermit from The Life of Brian stuck in my head, with Hawke trying to shut Vengeance up while they're hiding from the Templars.

And now I have this scenario stuck in my head:

Anders:  I-I never wanted this, this rage... I don't even know who I am anymore
Hawke:  Aw, cheer up Anders.  You know what they say... ::sings:: Some things in life are bad, they can really make you sad...
Anders:  This is not funny.
Hawke: ::singing:: And always look on the briiiiiight side of life!
::Isabela, Varric, and Merrill appear whistling::
Hawke: Always look on the liiiiiight side of life!  If life seems jolly rotten, there's something you've forgotten!
Anders:  I murdered innocent people!
Hawke: And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing!
Anders: I am possessed by a demon!
Hawke: If you're feeling in the dumps, don't be silly chumps!
Anders: I ATE MY CAT!

If we could heal Anders through the power of silly songs, it would make my day. 

And @Miri:  I love your icon!

Modifié par leggywillow, 17 février 2011 - 06:27 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

leggywillow wrote...

Anders: I ATE MY CAT!

OH GOD NO.