6655 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

SurelyForth wrote...

moilami wrote...

Just curious, what would had Cullen answered then? Remember we can suppose Cullen was aware of those arch types "liberationalist" and so on, and would had thus been able to identify mages being liberalists fighting for freedom and as such for justice.

Anyway, Justice would not had asked anything from Cullen as definitive answer. Justice is the judge, not Cullen.

But, in Cullen's case, even if he knew about the fraternities, he'd not be able to give any response that wasn't heavily, heavily biased towards the whole mages are evil things.

And my entire point is that Justice is the judge, but from what we see in the game, his responses are kneejerk and he doesn't seek out explanations or alternatives until much later and he does go to the biased source, as he did with Velanna and Nathaniel.

I know you base your morals on statements like "we have more rights to live than mages". But I disagree with you in that. Mages have all the same rights to live as you have.

[Irenie]

It’s interesting looking at the ‘personalities’ of both justice and vengeance (not the spirit/demon, sorry that wasn't very clear >.<). I think the main difference between them is that vengeance is pure anger and hatred, it doesn’t stop to think about the view of the other side or the consequences of its actions, it wants to hurt those who have wronged it. Justice on the other hand, is all about fairness and keeping order. Where vengeance loses perspective, justice remains level headed. Plus vengeance is usually a personal thing, whereas it’s better if justice comes from outside the problem.

@leggywillow: I really want that to happen  (apart from the kitty eating of course...)

Modifié par Gwawr, 17 février 2011 - 07:46 .

[syllogi]

Gwawr wrote...

It’s interesting looking at the ‘personalities’ of both justice and vengeance. I think the main difference between them is that vengeance is pure anger and hatred, it doesn’t stop to think about the view of the other side or the consequences of its actions, it wants to hurt those who have wronged it. Justice on the other hand, is all about fairness and keeping order. Where vengeance loses perspective, justice remains level headed. Plus vengeance is usually a personal thing, whereas it’s better if justice comes from outside the problem.

@leggywillow: I really want that to happen  (apart from the kitty eating of course...)

I wonder if Vengeance will be as violent all the time in the beginning of the game as the story portrays.  Since that was the "first appearance" of Vengeance, we don't know if it was out of control, or if that display of violence was typical, and will only grow worse.  If it's the latter, how can a player justify keeping *that* in their party?  Or recruiting it at all, once they see what it is?  I mean, I want to help Anders out, but I'm metagaming when I say that.  I do not know how I would roleplay a character who gives an out of control cannibalistic abomination the benefit of the doubt. 

If, on the other hand, Vengeance seems reasonable and not so murderous, at least from the outset, I can see how the situation gets muddier.  I'm just worried about the first big "outburst" that we witness in game from it.  I can't see my character being cool with innocents being murdered, no matter how much I'd like Anders from Awakening to be my Hawke's buddy.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Eshaye wrote...

I doubt that would be in the game too, but even then I don't find it inconceivable that Anders would turn on you if you cheat/dump him. Jealousy is a strong trigger for vengeance. Similar to Zevran's betrayal if his approval is low enough. Not saying it's actually going to happen, but I see the possibility of something down that line. Like Zevran and Sten the PC takes a high risk taking them on.

But there's a difference between a 'betrayal' of leaving (like Zevran did if you dumped him at 'Love') and physically trying to kill you.

Zevran only resorted to attacking you if you weren't good friends with him and there was already a physical altercation in play. He simply was forced to choose sides and didn't choose yours. To me that would be fine, but Anders going abomination and trying to throttle you because you called off the romance or got it on with Fenris would be a whole different animal. To me that would be the step over his moral event horizon, I could never forgive him for that.

@TeenZombie: I think it's going to be very important how his story is crafted. There are certain situations that could happen that if I played my character to the standard of the 'Paragon'/'Light Side' type I'm accustomed to, it would make it difficult to even keep him alive, much less around. I just have to hope that the scenes are written in a way that facilitates that sort of 'good guy' character and doesn't require us to throw morals out the window and metagame in order to keep him.

I have faith in BioWare to do that, they found reasons for us to keep assassins of every type, Krogan, golems and robots that actually enjoy murder, and a psychotic biotic ex-inmate.

[Irenie]

TeenZombie wrote...

Gwawr wrote...

It’s interesting looking at the ‘personalities’ of both justice and vengeance. I think the main difference between them is that vengeance is pure anger and hatred, it doesn’t stop to think about the view of the other side or the consequences of its actions, it wants to hurt those who have wronged it. Justice on the other hand, is all about fairness and keeping order. Where vengeance loses perspective, justice remains level headed. Plus vengeance is usually a personal thing, whereas it’s better if justice comes from outside the problem.

@leggywillow: I really want that to happen  (apart from the kitty eating of course...)

I wonder if Vengeance will be as violent all the time in the beginning of the game as the story portrays.  Since that was the "first appearance" of Vengeance, we don't know if it was out of control, or if that display of violence was typical, and will only grow worse.  If it's the latter, how can a player justify keeping *that* in their party?  Or recruiting it at all, once they see what it is?  I mean, I want to help Anders out, but I'm metagaming when I say that.  I do not know how I would roleplay a character who gives an out of control cannibalistic abomination the benefit of the doubt. 

If, on the other hand, Vengeance seems reasonable and not so murderous, at least from the outset, I can see how the situation gets muddier.  I'm just worried about the first big "outburst" that we witness in game from it.  I can't see my character being cool with innocents being murdered, no matter how much I'd like Anders from Awakening to be my Hawke's buddy.

I see what you're saying definatly, but I think that the story was the birth of a demon (as others have said), and that is bound to be horrific and definatly I think it was out of Anders' control. I'm guessing that Anders will have more control when we meet him, he'll probably be fighting harder to control vengeance after what happened. Seeing as when we first meet him he is healing people suggests that he's regained himself a little. And if that was indeed vengeance we saw coming through to protect the sanctuary, well, maybe they've both cooled a bit after that first 'explosion'. Maybe we'll have to wait until Anders encounters a situation involving the templars and chantry before we can measure how much control he has over vengeance. He seems like a good guy all in all, but he needs help desperatly. Of course I can't say until I've played the game...

Edited for clarity and points 

Modifié par Gwawr, 17 février 2011 - 07:43 .

[SurelyForth]

moilami wrote...

I know you base your morals on statements like "we have more rights to live than mages". But I disagree with you in that. Mages have all the same rights to live as you have.

Yeah, this is a game? And you utterly missed what I was saying, which is that it seems that Justice's perception of what is and what isn't just can be changed depending on what he sees and the perspective of those around him. I'm all about the freedom of mages. So much so, that the stigma against them and how that impacts the lives of others is a Thing in a story I'm writing.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 17 février 2011 - 07:53 .

[Miri1984]

@Grawr I definitely think the story thing was the first "flush" of human emotion, and considering how we meet Anders in game, I would anticipate a LOT of his personal problems are going to resolve around how to control the spirit, but I very much doubt he's going to go abomination in the middle of a conversation or whack out at you for looking at another guy. I'm pretty sure the "blind spot" Hepler talks about is the Circle of Magi. I suspect we'll only see Vengeance manifest is when we're dealing with Templars and/or Priests.



...Which, considering we're in Kirkwall, could be quite often!

[Eshaye]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

I doubt that would be in the game too, but even then I don't find it inconceivable that Anders would turn on you if you cheat/dump him. Jealousy is a strong trigger for vengeance. Similar to Zevran's betrayal if his approval is low enough. Not saying it's actually going to happen, but I see the possibility of something down that line. Like Zevran and Sten the PC takes a high risk taking them on.

But there's a difference between a 'betrayal' of leaving (like Zevran did if you dumped him at 'Love') and physically trying to kill you.

Zevran only resorted to attacking you if you weren't good friends with him and there was already a physical altercation in play. He simply was forced to choose sides and didn't choose yours. To me that would be fine, but Anders going abomination and trying to throttle you because you called off the romance or got it on with Fenris would be a whole different animal. To me that would be the step over his moral event horizon, I could never forgive him for that.

Of course not but if someone had a vengeance spirit in them and got hurt they would want revenge. People have different ways of dealing with an emotion like that and most wouldn't do anything about it, but if you already have Vengeance brewing on the inside? Anders would struggle with it for sure, more then likely BioWare won't write anything for the game or it will be mild, but were I a novelist and wanted drama, something would happen. He might not just snap and go abomination as you say, but he might not take your side either later on a la Zevran. And yes it may not even be possible if your approval is high enough regardless of dumpage, depending on how the new system works. 

[moilami]

SurelyForth wrote...

moilami wrote...

I know you base your morals on statements like "we have more rights to live than mages". But I disagree with you in that. Mages have all the same rights to live as you have.

Yeah, this is a game? And you utterly missed what I was saying, which is that it seems that Justice's perception of what is and what isn't just can be changed depending on what he sees and the perspective of those around him. I'm all about the freedom of mages. So much so, that the stigma against them and how that impacts the lives of others is a Thing in a story I'm writing.

I was just trying to say to you that who said Justice would have to do very exhaustive research on the subject interviewing several people and doing polls? And who said that would change anything? It had life in Fade, and it probably knows demons and spirits better than 99,9% of people. It knew mages. It just fought against one (actually a demon) before the player recruited it. Probably it also have thoroughly thought moral grounds and principles.

Modifié par moilami, 17 février 2011 - 08:16 .

[zazei]

Personally I'm a bit disappointed by the grey wardens after reading the story on how Anders ended up as vengeance. What little we see of other grey warden mages before such as Avernus made me think they wouldn't just recruit a Templar like that or always team it up with a mage to make the chantry happy. Other then Alistair who had only been a grey warden for six months none of the wardens in the game made me think this would be something they considered. Especially with the way Duncan recruited my mage even if she never told Irving about the plan.

Seems they never been as neutral as they like to claim and even if they want to be they don't seem to have the power to resist the chantry on anything.

Modifié par zazei, 17 février 2011 - 08:28 .

[Irenie]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Grawr I definitely think the story thing was the first "flush" of human emotion, and considering how we meet Anders in game, I would anticipate a LOT of his personal problems are going to resolve around how to control the spirit, but I very much doubt he's going to go abomination in the middle of a conversation or whack out at you for looking at another guy. I'm pretty sure the "blind spot" Hepler talks about is the Circle of Magi. I suspect we'll only see Vengeance manifest is when we're dealing with Templars and/or Priests.

...Which, considering we're in Kirkwall, could be quite often!

Heeee, that's what I meant I swear 

Modifié par Gwawr, 17 février 2011 - 08:33 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Hmm, do you think that if Anders does end up in a relationship with femHawke that it could have a moderating influence on Vengeance/Justice? Calm him down/change him in any way? Such a thing strikes me as a little too Beauty & the Beast for my tastes, but I wonder if it's possible. I can definitely see things going rather badly and causing an incident if Anders & his other half were to become jealous (like if you flirt with Fenris too, etc.).

[Irenie]

Oopsy

Modifié par Gwawr, 17 février 2011 - 08:32 .

[SurelyForth]

zazei wrote...

Personally I'm a bit disappointed by the grey wardens after reading the story on how Anders ended up as vengeance. What little we see of other grey warden mages before such as Avernus made me think they wouldn't just recruit a Templar like that or always team it up with a mage to make the chantry happy. Other then Alistair who had only been a grey warden for six months none of the wardens in the game made me think this would be something they considered. Especially with the way Duncan recruited my mage even if she never told Irving about the plan.

Seems they never been as neutral as they like to claim and even if they want to be they don't seem to have the power to resist the chantry on anything.

It might have come down to a decision by whoever his Warden-Commander was at the time. Duncan was much more concerned with the effectiveness of the recruit as a Warden, and less hung up on anything else. A different Warden-Commander might have balked at recruiting the Mage Warden, or Anders, and would see having a templar in the ranks as a valid way to ensure that a mage in the Wardens was accounted for.

[RGDekta]

I have a question that I cannot find answered I am curious to how they will explain how Anders met Justice if you don't accept him in the warden and turn him over to the chantry and he does not become a Warden (as you did have that option in Awakenings)

[Jean]

RGDekta wrote...

I have a question that I cannot find answered I am curious to how they will explain how Anders met Justice if you don't accept him in the warden and turn him over to the chantry and he does not become a Warden (as you did have that option in Awakenings)

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/2795068/1

That small FAQ on the first post should answer some questions.

[zazei]

SurelyForth wrote...

zazei wrote...

Personally I'm a bit disappointed by the grey wardens after reading the story on how Anders ended up as vengeance. What little we see of other grey warden mages before such as Avernus made me think they wouldn't just recruit a Templar like that or always team it up with a mage to make the chantry happy. Other then Alistair who had only been a grey warden for six months none of the wardens in the game made me think this would be something they considered. Especially with the way Duncan recruited my mage even if she never told Irving about the plan.

Seems they never been as neutral as they like to claim and even if they want to be they don't seem to have the power to resist the chantry on anything.

It might have come down to a decision by whoever his Warden-Commander was at the time. Duncan was much more concerned with the effectiveness of the recruit as a Warden, and less hung up on anything else. A different Warden-Commander might have balked at recruiting the Mage Warden, or Anders, and would see having a templar in the ranks as a valid way to ensure that a mage in the Wardens was accounted for.

Most likely something like this but my only small problem with that is that I imagined our warden would have been his commander. Fereldan had rebuild the orders whole pressence there and I can't see why our grey warden commander would send him away but owh well. The chantries influence might just be that strong to overrule others at times I imagine.

Even the grey wardens might not be enough if the Chantry get mad enough at someone. They probably do have some powerful allies in their ranks. Still is a bit of a let down that it happend.

[RGDekta]

Batteries wrote...

RGDekta wrote...

I have a question that I cannot find answered I am curious to how they will explain how Anders met Justice if you don't accept him in the warden and turn him over to the chantry and he does not become a Warden (as you did have that option in Awakenings)

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/2795068/1

That small FAQ on the first post should answer some questions.

Thanks not sure how I missed that

[Phate Phoenix]

Changing topics drastically...

Anyone else planning on giving their Lady Hawke some tattoos because of this?


ANDERS: Have I ever told you that I find tattoos on women incredibly attractive?
VELANNA: Have I ever told you that I find most humans physically and morally repulsive?
ANDERS: Good to know!


Not that I expect the game to actually address that, but still!

Modifié par Phate Phoenix, 17 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[Jean]

My characters almost always have tattoos anyways. Depends if I like any of them, then probably.
Are tattoos even still in the game?

[Sialater]

That's an interesting thought. Meghan, in her Shepard incarnation, has a tattoo. Hadn't thought about if her Hawke incarnation would. Now... she might have to.

[syllogi]

Batteries wrote...

My characters almost always have tattoos anyways. Depends if I like any of them, then probably.
Are tattoos even still in the game?

Hehe, in one demo video, someone made an "uglyHawke" female, who was bald and had tattoos on her face.

I usually don't use them (unless I was Dalish or a duster in DA:O!), but if Anders were actually to notice something like that, I would definitely add them.  It's nice that we've got the mirror in the Black Emporium for life shatteringly important stuff like that...

[PangoJango]

might be a little off topic, or previously writen somewhere in the 130 previous pages of discussion, but, does any one think we'll see sir pounce alot again, and if so can there de a DLC to summon him, in the same way the mubari war hound can be?



i'm probably the only one but i think that would be hilariously awesome.

[Jean]

TeenZombie wrote...

Batteries wrote...

My characters almost always have tattoos anyways. Depends if I like any of them, then probably.
Are tattoos even still in the game?

Hehe, in one demo video, someone made an "uglyHawke" female, who was bald and had tattoos on her face.

I usually don't use them (unless I was Dalish or a duster in DA:O!), but if Anders were actually to notice something like that, I would definitely add them.  It's nice that we've got the mirror in the Black Emporium for life shatteringly important stuff like that...

Which video is that? I thought character creator was disabled in the demo?
Ironically, the only ones I usually don't give a tattoo are my Dalish elves, just because you'd assume they would have one. I don't think my mage has one either..

I feel proud for pre-ordering on the 10th of January now.

[Phate Phoenix]

PangoJango wrote...

might be a little off topic, or previously writen somewhere in the 130 previous pages of discussion, but, does any one think we'll see sir pounce alot again, and if so can there de a DLC to summon him, in the same way the mubari war hound can be?

i'm probably the only one but i think that would be hilariously awesome.

Personally, I'd love it if Anders owned a cat. However, I'm against him summoning it or bringing it out on missions. Now that he has a home base of sorts (I assume some sort of apartment or house) there's no reason for him to bring the cat out and about.

But I'd still love for him to own one, and to bring it up in conversation absurdly often. Love it more if the other characters brought up his cat-obsession.