6655 réponses à ce sujet

[ReallyRue]

This seems so interesting, and the party banters between Anders and Justice really take on a new light now. I wonder whether there will be some split personality thing going on, where Anders can't fully control Justice.

I feel really bad for the both of them, I hope I'll be able to help them in the game!

[Nighteye2]

Chris Priestly wrote...
Meet Anders. Some of you may remember Anders from Dragon Age: Origins Awakening, but this mage has changed. Now bonded with the Spirit of Justice, his anger at the Circle of Magi has corrupted Justice into the Spirit of Vengeance. Everyday is now a struggle to contain the spirit within, and everyday it becomes harder to control.

This is not the Anders you remember.

Surely there must be more to it than that? I remember Justice being exceedingly cautious about not turning into a demon...

Also, anger is an emotion Justice is already familiar with, in the form of righteous anger.

What else happened to corrupt him? It doesn't make sense.

[lionsfan208]

Somebody wrote...

So Justice is no longer a good spirit?

 Vengeance isn/t bad (as in the emotion or action) just like justice isn't good.  Justice could be looked at as meeting out the exact punishment for the crime.  So if a little boy steals a goat from a King he has to be jailed, killed or something like that.  Now there were extenuating reasons for this theft like the boy's family is starving.  Fairness, not justice, would dictate that there be some lessor punishment.   So like I said justice isn't a good or bad thing just like vengeance isn't good or bad either.  That’s my opinion anyway.

[nightcobra]

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors?
Ensure they can do this to no one else?

Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act
to free those who remain oppressed.

Warden: Was the circle really that bad?
Anders: The problem is that mages are tolerated, barely. It's like you need permission to be alive
Anders: There's nothing a mage can do to prove himself. Everyone needs to be protected from you. The end.

Sounds to me that the foundation was already being laid in Awakening and we didn't realize it.

Anders did have a deep rooted hatred for the chantry and what it stands for.  His dialogue is laced with chantry and circle bitterness if you listen to it closely.

Justice started feeling negative emotions like envy and anger.  It could have been possible that the perception of what justice is can be skewed and twisted from it's original pure sense of the virtue.

I think the corruption took place because after Justice witness all these negative emotions and memories deeply rooted in Anders.  It angers him, so much that it twisted his perception of what justice is. 

How many times have you seen vengeance motivated people say this line "it's not about revenge it's about justice!"

though anders doesn't like chantry supervision of mages even anders knows that pulling the circle away from the chantry completely is a no-no.

this is when wynne says that some mages are trying to separate themselves from the chantry entirely.

here is anders response:

[Knal1991]

Nighteye2 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...
Meet Anders. Some of you may remember Anders from Dragon Age: Origins Awakening, but this mage has changed. Now bonded with the Spirit of Justice, his anger at the Circle of Magi has corrupted Justice into the Spirit of Vengeance. Everyday is now a struggle to contain the spirit within, and everyday it becomes harder to control.

This is not the Anders you remember.

Surely there must be more to it than that? I remember Justice being exceedingly cautious about not turning into a demon...

Also, anger is an emotion Justice is already familiar with, in the form of righteous anger.

What else happened to corrupt him? It doesn't make sense.

He was not familiar with the anger Anders had, he's only familiar with it in the general rightious anger not the one personal for everyone, just like other people see something as justice while the spirit of justice seess it not, which might be more fierce then what he expected.. and thus transforming him.. I do think it's combination of Anders and Justice what made the change...

What Anders truly desired might have been vengeance instead of Justice, what could have made the change to the spirit of Justice...

EDIT: also, do you notice this consistency in DA2

Anders/ Justice wants Vengeance

Sebastian Vael wants Vengeance

Fenris (sorta, I think) wants Vengeance

hmmm...
Three characters with vengefull motives in 3 different classes, could
make an interesting party setup no? (especially if you play a vengefull
hawke as well [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie] )

Modifié par Knal1991, 09 février 2011 - 05:49 .

[Poison Apple]

Just a musing but I wonder if in combat Anders and Vengeance are separate entities which you can switch between? For example, Anders is specialised in healing magic while Vengeance is more a DPS mage? Then in a quest you could have a choice of ridding the demon from Anders or to let it fully take over him for the chance of more powerful magic? If that makes any sense. 


 

I'm kind of doubting it would happen but I like that idea nevertheless.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

This is awesome! This makes Awakenings now a more important part of the Dragon Age saga, instead of a sort of tacked-on epilogue-adventure to the Warden storyline.

[Gennojo Ryuga]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors?
Ensure they can do this to no one else?

Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act
to free those who remain oppressed.

Warden: Was the circle really that bad?
Anders: The problem is that mages are tolerated, barely. It's like you need permission to be alive
Anders: There's nothing a mage can do to prove himself. Everyone needs to be protected from you. The end.

Sounds to me that the foundation was already being laid in Awakening and we didn't realize it.

Anders did have a deep rooted hatred for the chantry and what it stands for.  His dialogue is laced with chantry and circle bitterness if you listen to it closely.

Justice started feeling negative emotions like envy and anger.  It could have been possible that the perception of what justice is can be skewed and twisted from it's original pure sense of the virtue.

I think the corruption took place because after Justice witness all these negative emotions and memories deeply rooted in Anders.  It angers him, so much that it twisted his perception of what justice is. 

How many times have you seen vengeance motivated people say this line "it's not about revenge it's about justice!"

though anders doesn't like chantry supervision of mages even anders knows that pulling the circle away from the chantry completely is a no-no.

this is when wynne says that some mages are trying to separate themselves from the chantry entirely.

here is anders response:

That is true but also remember that, like I mentioned, Anders has deep rooted issues with the chantry and the circle as a whole.  Justice could have goaded and insisted for a long time after awakening's events to take charge and do something about mage oppression, playing on Anders deeply rooted bitterness. After Justice fed off of Anders bitterness and anger, it twisted the spirit's perception of justice, seeking it on a more personal level, which is no longer justice but vengeance now.  The same ideal sought for the wrong reasons

[druplesnubb]

This seems like the cruelest thing Bioware has done since the Alistair and Morrigan romances and the keep/city decision (which were both in the two previous games, I really shouldn't be surprised). Did you convince Justice of how wonderful the world is, helped him to make peace with Kristoff's wife and had him devote his life helping people and correcting more injustices? well TOO BAD, HE TURNS EVIL, DEAL WITH IT.

On another note i start to like the chances for the theory that Anders is the son of Flemeth and Maric now.

Modifié par druplesnubb, 09 février 2011 - 06:12 .

[nightcobra]

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

That is true but also remember that, like I mentioned, Anders has deep rooted issues with the chantry and the circle as a whole.  Justice could have goaded and insisted for a long time after awakening's events to take charge and do something about mage oppression, playing on Anders deeply rooted bitterness. After Justice fed off of Anders bitterness and anger, it twisted the spirit's perception of justice, seeking it on a more personal level, which is no longer justice but vengeance now.  The same ideal sought for the wrong reasons

i don't think justice would feed off anders emotions like that, i'd say justice was overpowered by anders resentment toward the chantry's supervision of mages.
when justice entered kristoff he had all of his memories, i'd say when he merged with anders, justice gained all of anders memories and experiences and couldn't cope with the lifetime of injustice that anders experienced in one fellswoop, twisting him into a spirit of vengeance.

[ReallyRue]

Knal1991 wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Surely there must be more to it than that? I remember Justice being exceedingly cautious about not turning into a demon...

Also, anger is an emotion Justice is already familiar with, in the form of righteous anger.

What else happened to corrupt him? It doesn't make sense.

He was not familiar with the anger Anders had, he's only familiar with it in the general rightious anger not the one personal for everyone, just like other people see something as justice while the spirit of justice seess it not, which might be more fierce then what he expected.. and thus transforming him.. I do think it's combination of Anders and Justice what made the change...

What Anders truly desired might have been vengeance instead of Justice, what could have made the change to the spirit of Justice...

It might also be more of a hatred than anger. There has to be a cause for anger, and if that is Anders' hatred and bitterness, than that is a very different form of anger to the type Justice experienced. Most of his emotions seemed to be linked to the central identity of 'justice', e.g. if he was compassionate, then it was because it was just, if he was angry it was at an injustice. Anders' feelings are personal, and Justice was developing emotions of his own that were more like mortal ones.
It's an interesting combination, they are now officially the 'character' I most want to meet.

[efrgfhnm_]

Now this is awesome!
I never grew attatched to the Awakening characters the same way i did to the Origins ones, and of them i thought Justice was the only unique one, with Anders just being Alistair in all but name and view of the chantry.
However, I am actually genuinely excited about this haha

Modifié par efrgfhnm , 09 février 2011 - 06:36 .

[LadyDamodred]

Miri1984 wrote...

 I wonder if the Justice-to-Vengeance transformation has happened BEFORE you meet him or you're with him when the transformation occurs? Because that would be... uber tragic to witness..

I would actually like to see it.  I'm hoping that's what the info we've gotten indicates.  That when Anders finds that his friend has been made tranquil and then goes all glowy-eyed and boomy-voiced, that's Justice becoming Vengeance.

[Gennojo Ryuga]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

That is true but also remember that, like I mentioned, Anders has deep rooted issues with the chantry and the circle as a whole.  Justice could have goaded and insisted for a long time after awakening's events to take charge and do something about mage oppression, playing on Anders deeply rooted bitterness. After Justice fed off of Anders bitterness and anger, it twisted the spirit's perception of justice, seeking it on a more personal level, which is no longer justice but vengeance now.  The same ideal sought for the wrong reasons

i don't think justice would feed off anders emotions like that, i'd say justice was overpowered by anders resentment toward the chantry's supervision of mages.
when justice entered kristoff he had all of his memories, i'd say when he merged with anders, justice gained all of anders memories and experiences and couldn't cope with the lifetime of injustice that anders experienced in one fellswoop, twisting him into a spirit of vengeance.

Probably not feed off Anders emotions intentionally, but exposed to them and ultimately overwhelmed by them like you mentioned.  It will be interesting if we actually watch this transformation play out in front of us and what havoc he will cause in the name of "justice".

[Tempus Frangit]

I liked Anders the way he was...I hope he's not completely changed. But I'll be glad to have him around.

[crotti]

Anders and Alistair are my favourite characters, so I was REALLY happy when I saw that Anders would return.



I hope he has not changed completely and that you can help/save him (and Justice - if that's possible)... Even though the idea of an evil Anders is quite funny (I just had to draw something xD http://i213.photobuc...rottianders.jpg I hope it's okay if I post that link) I really couldn't stand him if he turned into a second Nathaniel - always complaining and pitying himself.

Not that Alistair or Anders didn't complain xD



Oh, I will also be upset if Ser Pounce-a-lot doesn't show up at least once

(Maybe Ser Pounce-a-lot became a second "Kitty"? It probably would be fun to have a demonic cat... xD Now we just need kaddis...)

[Esoj16]

I haven't read all the pages but I see a lot of people asking what happens if anders is killed, a more interesting question for me is what happens if anders survives awakening but you killed justice outright, thereby ensuring anders isn't ever possessed, would this mean that anders would appear in DA2 as his normal self?

[Rimfrost]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

This is awesome! This makes Awakenings now a more important part of the Dragon Age saga, instead of a sort of tacked-on epilogue-adventure to the Warden storyline.

Good point. and while initially it felt a little cheesy they where able to continue the story of Justice (I hope). He brought a great perspective on things!

[AtreiyaN7]

Yeah, I was playing Awakening again and chit-chatted with Wynne - aside from the Anders/Justice angle (oh pleeeease BW, LET US SAVE HIM *cough*), I'm wondering if her comment has anything to do with what happens in DA2. It seems possible that the Libertarians did break away, and maybe that's causing trouble with the Chantry & templars.

[panamakira]

I wonder how has Anders' combat changed since he's living with Vengeance. I mean, like Justice/Vengeance powers him up when his health runs low or when you are having a conversation/argument would J/V pop out with glowy eyes and like totally tell you off or something?



Or, lol, could you approach Anders and be like "I need to talk to Justice/Vengeance, is he in?"



Like seriously, I wonder how and when J/V presents itself to Hawke?

[HolyJellyfish]

I sense a very, very heartbreaking end for Anders. It could be a decision between 'Save Anders' and 'Save Chantry', or 'Save Anders' vs 'Save Circle'.... or 'Save Anders Soul by killing him' vs 'Save Anders, Not Kill him, Wallah Abomination!'



I thought Fenris and Aveline were the top contenders for sob stories, but I'm getting the impression more and more that Anders might just take that trophy. Holy crap, this is going to be a hard game to play and see through to the end.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Cypher0020 wrote...

hey do you think MageHawke and Anders can discuss the joys of apostate life?

Y'know being apostates, and running from the Chantry, and stuff like that?

Yes. Or maybe Bethany and Anders can hook up at some point?

Oh the potential...

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors?
Ensure they can do this to no one else?

Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act
to free those who remain oppressed.

Warden: Was the circle really that bad?
Anders: The problem is that mages are tolerated, barely. It's like you need permission to be alive
Anders: There's nothing a mage can do to prove himself. Everyone needs to be protected from you. The end.

Sounds to me that the foundation was already being laid in Awakening and we didn't realize it.

Anders did have a deep rooted hatred for the chantry and what it stands for.  His dialogue is laced with chantry and circle bitterness if you listen to it closely.

Justice started feeling negative emotions like envy and anger.  It could have been possible that the perception of what justice is can be skewed and twisted from it's original pure sense of the virtue.

I think the corruption took place because after Justice witness all these negative emotions and memories deeply rooted in Anders.  It angers him, so much that it twisted his perception of what justice is. 

How many times have you seen vengeance motivated people say this line "it's not about revenge it's about justice!"

though anders doesn't like chantry supervision of mages even anders knows that pulling the circle away from the chantry completely is a no-no.

this is when wynne says that some mages are trying to separate themselves from the chantry entirely.

here is anders response:

That is true but also remember that, like I mentioned, Anders has deep rooted issues with the chantry and the circle as a whole.  Justice could have goaded and insisted for a long time after awakening's events to take charge and do something about mage oppression, playing on Anders deeply rooted bitterness. After Justice fed off of Anders bitterness and anger, it twisted the spirit's perception of justice, seeking it on a more personal level, which is no longer justice but vengeance now.  The same ideal sought for the wrong reasons

I agree with this but I'd also like to add, wasn't the darkspawn who killed Kristoff a mage of the mother and I can see Justice seeking vengence for Kristoff's death.  The darkspawn who sent us into the fade in DAA. 

I can't wait to find out how this story plays out. 

For Anders being alive in case he got killed in Awakenings, people seem to  forget Ser-Pounces abilities.  When you play WH, and find the book in the library I've had the impression that Anders and Ser-Pounce have known each other a very long time.

[Miri1984]

I'm still all scared about this. I can't believe they wouldn't put a way for it to end semi-happily for Anders, even if it is a compromise happy like the mistress ending for the Alistair romance. But I am not sure if it can.



In any case I'll be doing my damndest to save them both.

[NinaDA]

Loved, loved, loved Awakening Anders.

But I will keep my expectations in check and my squees to a minimum - he is not the Anders we remember. And he isn't written by David Gaider this time around.