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[sevalaricgirl]

Threeparts wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Why is everyone calling Justice a demon. In Christianity, Jesus is the ultimate good (ie Justice) but he goes on a rampage in the temple square, destroying everything. He's still intrinsically good despite the vengeance that came out. Now to me a spirit doesn't have to be always good. Anders/Justice can do ultimate good or ultimate bad so hopefully that is the struggle within and the character's personality is not changed. As an author, I see the potential. As a fan, I hope it doesn't turn out to be a change I'm not going to like. Also for Justice who was the ultimate good, he killed in Awakening which means that he did have the potential to have vengeance for a good cause. Vengeance for a good cause isn't so bad. Vengeance for no reason is really bad.

I'm... really not going to get into a debate on whether Jesus was good or bad, but the simple answer is that, for me, it comes down to what the creators of the character and game have stated. He has been described as "corrupted" and "demonic", thus he's probably not going to have the sense of self-control that would differentiate Justice and Vengeance. Less 'an eye for an eye' and more, 'you took my eye so I'm going to burn down your house with your children sleeping inside'. 
The key pooint is that when someone is bent on Vengeance, they're not so open to reason. It's a passionate emotion, where Justice is more rational and logical.

Still doesn't make you a demon.  We all live with vengeance.  It's what we do with it.  If we're mindless and I doubt that Anders is mindless, then we're an abomination.  I believe in Thedas, they use the word demon too loosely. 

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 10 février 2011 - 01:10 .

[Russalka]

It did say so in the official character revealing.

[Herr Uhl]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Still doesn't make you a demon.  We all live with vengeance.  It's what we do with it.  If we're mindless and I doubt that Anders is mindless, then we're an abomination.

What does that matter, doesn't change that Venegance is mindless about it. He is the very embodiment of it.

I believe in Thedas, they use the word demon too loosely. 

You mean conversely from the real-world demons, or shall we just use the demons from one faith? Or maybe just your personal definition.

Demon is a very bendable word, accept that it can be used in other ways than you use it.

[Threeparts]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Still doesn't make you a demon.  We all live with vengeance.  It's what we do with it.  If we're mindless and I doubt that Anders is mindless, then we're an abomination.  I believe in Thedas, they use the word demon too loosely. 

Yes, but the difference between our normal human desire for revenge and being possessed by a spirit of Vengeance would be quite large. In that this is a powerful being trying to take control of you whose entire reason for existence is revenge.

Thedas' demons are not our demons. It's simply the term they use, and it's best not to equate them to what demons are in Earthly religious myths.

[Russalka]

I think the story with Anders would give us a new perspective in the nature of all Fade beings. It is too early to make assumptions on what exactly is evil and what is not, if we do not know what will transpire.

Modifié par Russalka, 10 février 2011 - 01:41 .

[moilami]

Mr.House wrote...

moilami wrote...


Lol. That was hilarious. Both Vengeance and Anders got her, but the switch did not go all well xD Remember by the way Anders is grey warden too.

I forgot about this, this could also be intresting since Anders does live on borrow time, this could make him reckless in his plans to take down the chantry.

Certainly.

+

Played Awakening a little and messed around the city. Can't believe how people were so surprised about Anders wanting to deal with the chantry. It was very clear and obvious he disliked and hated it. Anders clearly had a clue.

[moilami]

Threeparts wrote...



Less 'an eye for an eye' and more, 'you took my eye so I'm going to burn down your house with your children sleeping inside'. 
The key point is that when someone is bent on Vengeance, they're not so open to reason. It's a passionate emotion, where Justice is more rational and logical.

No, kids are not part of killing machine called chantry.

Modifié par moilami, 10 février 2011 - 01:39 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

sassperella wrote...

Dune01 wrote...

Did we get a official confirmation that anders is LI?

nope nothing, though it seems the men only have two choices, merril and isabella, so it'll probably be the same for fem hawke for a straight romance. There's three to choose from so one may not be a LI at all. They didn't have a romancable dwarf in the first game so it's something they may do in this one and Fenris is the obvious choice for the bi male.... so it's not looking good for Anders. Plus Anders is actually two characters which may also rule him out as a LI

That's assuming that most people were crying for a romanceable dwarf in the first place... And I don't think they were.  I also think that since Anders is human AND returning from a previous game where he was not a LI (see: Garrus and Tali), he's basically a shoe-in.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 10 février 2011 - 01:40 .

[Threeparts]

moilami wrote...

Threeparts wrote...



Less 'an eye for an eye' and more, 'you took my eye so I'm going to burn down your house with your children sleeping inside'. 
The key point is that when someone is bent on Vengeance, they're not so open to reason. It's a passionate emotion, where Justice is more rational and logical.

No, kids are not part of killing machine called chantry.

It's an example, not to be taken literally.

[moilami]

Herr Uhl wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

That's what I'm saying. We ALL have demons within.

"Urged by his friend Justice to fight the Circle of Magi more actively, Anders agreed to become Justice's human host… only to find that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance. Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control over the demon within... at least long enough to see the Circle of Magi overturned forever."

The main thing that separates demons from spirits is interest in experiencing the real world. If he actually tries to seize control, I'd class him as a demonic entity. And the way it is worded, it is heavily implied that he will try.

Free meat for templars.

[s0meguy6669]

 Anders

.....starts crying.....

...They selected one of the most idiotic characters ever in a BW game to transfer from DAO to DA2

[Russalka]

Your opinion is not a fact.

[Bobad]

Russalka wrote...

Your opinion is not a fact.

This should be a pop-up for everyone that ever enters these forums.

[andrastepreserveme]

It is my opinion that Anders was a very funny character with a very interesting political stance. All opinions are valid, but they aren't necessarily to purpose in this discussion.

[sevalaricgirl]

Herr Uhl wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Still doesn't make you a demon.  We all live with vengeance.  It's what we do with it.  If we're mindless and I doubt that Anders is mindless, then we're an abomination.

What does that matter, doesn't change that Venegance is mindless about it. He is the very embodiment of it.

I believe in Thedas, they use the word demon too loosely. 

You mean conversely from the real-world demons, or shall we just use the demons from one faith? Or maybe just your personal definition.

Demon is a very bendable word, accept that it can be used in other ways than you use it.

Hmm, since I have no particular "faith" as in belonging to a church, my view of demons is one from a parapsychology point of view.  Demons in DAO didn't let those they possessed have any say at all, the templar in the circle tower for instance.  He was beyond controlling his mind.  He had no control.  Connor for the most part didn't have any control over his mind.  Anders, we can assume, does have control.  Uldred in the harrowing chamber said I am not Uldred so though he looked like Uldred, the real Uldred had no control over his mind. 

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 10 février 2011 - 02:17 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Haha... The thing about opinions on forums is that you're free to share them... you just gotta accept the consequences of sharing those opinions. 99% of people probably don't get this concept.

[sevalaricgirl]

RinjiRenee wrote...

sassperella wrote...

Dune01 wrote...

Did we get a official confirmation that anders is LI?

nope nothing, though it seems the men only have two choices, merril and isabella, so it'll probably be the same for fem hawke for a straight romance. There's three to choose from so one may not be a LI at all. They didn't have a romancable dwarf in the first game so it's something they may do in this one and Fenris is the obvious choice for the bi male.... so it's not looking good for Anders. Plus Anders is actually two characters which may also rule him out as a LI

That's assuming that most people were crying for a romanceable dwarf in the first place... And I don't think they were.  I also think that since Anders is human AND returning from a previous game where he was not a LI (see: Garrus and Tali), he's basically a shoe-in.

I think people forget that those on the forums are a small majority of the people who will buy the game and even on the forum, I don't see a large populace clamoring over having a dwarf romance option.  Quite the contrary.  There are more clamoring over having Anders or Sebastion as a love interest.

[Rinji the Bearded]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

sassperella wrote...

Dune01 wrote...

Did we get a official confirmation that anders is LI?

nope nothing, though it seems the men only have two choices, merril and isabella, so it'll probably be the same for fem hawke for a straight romance. There's three to choose from so one may not be a LI at all. They didn't have a romancable dwarf in the first game so it's something they may do in this one and Fenris is the obvious choice for the bi male.... so it's not looking good for Anders. Plus Anders is actually two characters which may also rule him out as a LI

That's assuming that most people were crying for a romanceable dwarf in the first place... And I don't think they were.  I also think that since Anders is human AND returning from a previous game where he was not a LI (see: Garrus and Tali), he's basically a shoe-in.

I think people forget that those on the forums are a small majority of the people who will buy the game and even on the forum, I don't see a large populace clamoring over having a dwarf romance option.  Quite the contrary.  There are more clamoring over having Anders or Sebastion as a love interest.

Exactly.  Wasn't the official statistic of people that played dwarves about 3-5% of all players?  I don't give Varric very good odds when it comes to be romanceable.  I think girls for the most part are still squicked.   Also, like you said, girls seem to be clamoring over a human male lover (I think there was a lot of BAWWWing going on when we learned that no one in Awakening was romanceable). But hey, this is an opinion and I could very well get a very large blow to the face because of it... but there you go.  

[ThatDancingTurian]

RinjiRenee wrote...

That's assuming that most people were crying for a romanceable dwarf in the first place... And I don't think they were.  I also think that since Anders is human AND returning from a previous game where he was not a LI (see: Garrus and Tali), he's basically a shoe-in.

See this is what I want to think, but I'm going to try to maintain a certain amount of skepticism to protect myself from disappointment.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

That's assuming that most people were crying for a romanceable dwarf in the first place... And I don't think they were.  I also think that since Anders is human AND returning from a previous game where he was not a LI (see: Garrus and Tali), he's basically a shoe-in.

See this is what I want to think, but I'm going to try to maintain a certain amount of skepticism to protect myself from disappointment.

Haha... believe me, if Anders is not romanceable, I'll be about as disappointed as you are... One of us will undoubtedly be greatly disappointed.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 10 février 2011 - 02:32 .

[Meer]

RinjiRenee wrote...

That's assuming that most people were crying for a romanceable dwarf in the first place... And I don't think they were.  I also think that since Anders is human AND returning from a previous game where he was not a LI (see: Garrus and Tali), he's basically a shoe-in.

I have to say I did read a thread here where some of the DA team spoke on data collected regarding who played what origin,  how often, etc.  In that data, cost regarding storyline threads, etc., was discussed. From that pool of data, it seems that the dwarf origin was least often played,  with human being most.   From a cost standpoint,  it was mentioned that adding more human origins may have been more cost effective according to what was actually used;  however, from a storyline perspective,  it didn't appeal.  Also, this information was spoken of in regards to a certain poster saying that Bioware wastes on unused content and not something specific that poster desired.

What I'm trying to say is that while popular opinion may matter in some degree to the company, it is their right to do as they please with their story.  Even if a dwarf is/is not popular,  if it seems reasonable to the writers...he will be a LI and vice versa.

That said,  the subject of Anders/Justice's situation concerns me on the point of being a LI.  I'm not convinced in either direction however,  though I would find it odd if such a popular returner was not written in such a way.  Especially considering how much I heard about how disappointed players were he wasn't romanceable in Awakening.  

[ThatDancingTurian]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Haha... believe me, if Anders is not romanceable, I'll be about as disappointed as you are... One of us will undoubtedly be greatly disappointed.

Most definitely. Don't get me wrong, I'll still bring him along everywhere regardless of whether or not he's an LI, but it will feel like such a missed opportunity. And if Anders isn't an LI, then I have to pin all of my hopes back onto the long shot: Sebastian.

[Herr Uhl]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Hmm, since I have no particular "faith" as in belonging to a church, my view of demons is one from a parapsychology point of view.  Demons in DAO didn't let those they possessed have any say at all, the templar in the circle tower for instance.  He was beyond controlling his mind.  He had no control.  Connor for the most part didn't have any control over his mind.  Anders, we can assume, does have control.  Uldred in the harrowing chamber said I am not Uldred so though he looked like Uldred, the real Uldred had no control over his mind. 

It is unknown if Vengeance is actually trying to take over the body at this point. It is suggested that he does, and that he is the "demon within" that Anders battles.

My guess is that he is like Connor, but better at controlling himself and supressing the other entity (the blue-eyes suggests Vengeance being in control to me). If Vengeance does not try to take control, I wouldn't class him as a demon. If he does, I would. Whether you see vengeance as good or evil doesn't come into the picture for me. As I see it, Justice's story during Awakening was about him becoming more and more demonic by going from being disgusted by the idea of possessing a body (only prolonging it out of a sense of justice needing to be done) into actively wanting to experience more and a fascination with the world.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Neurotoxin wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

That's assuming that most people were crying for a romanceable dwarf in the first place... And I don't think they were.  I also think that since Anders is human AND returning from a previous game where he was not a LI (see: Garrus and Tali), he's basically a shoe-in.

I have to say I did read a thread here where some of the DA team spoke on data collected regarding who played what origin,  how often, etc.  In that data, cost regarding storyline threads, etc., was discussed. From that pool of data, it seems that the dwarf origin was least often played,  with human being most.   From a cost standpoint,  it was mentioned that adding more human origins may have been more cost effective according to what was actually used;  however, from a storyline perspective,  it didn't appeal.  Also, this information was spoken of in regards to a certain poster saying that Bioware wastes on unused content and not something specific that poster desired.

What I'm trying to say is that while popular opinion may matter in some degree to the company, it is their right to do as they please with their story.  Even if a dwarf is/is not popular,  if it seems reasonable to the writers...he will be a LI and vice versa.

That said,  the subject of Anders/Justice's situation concerns me on the point of being a LI.  I'm not convinced in either direction however,  though I would find it odd if such a popular returner was not written in such a way.  Especially considering how much I heard about how disappointed players were he wasn't romanceable in Awakening.  

Good point!  If the writers wanna make a dwarf romanceable for story reasons, then that's their prerogative... I just won't be romancing him.  Sorry all you dwarf fans out there!   Just ain't my cup of tea!  Varric's pretty okay looking for the dwarf, just can't get over the... dwarfiness.  Do your worst, Bioware!  I know you drink my tears for your morning tea.

And again I agree with you about the oddness of not making Anders a LI simply because he's a returning character.  Not even a novelty/joke character this time around, him taking a serious turn seems to throw up the LI flags for me... maybe I'm just kidding myself.

[Russalka]

The possession might also be enough drama to not make him a love interest, returning character or not. I understand the "oddness", but I think the deal with Justice can compensate that. But it is a matter of opinion and we shall see when it gets announced.