6655 réponses à ce sujet

[Miri1984]

@ Polaris Cool. You have fun with that then

As for me, I'm still of this opinion:

Modifié par Miri1984, 15 février 2011 - 06:42 .

[Nyaore]

IanPolaris wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I agree with all of this and it also makes me less sympathetic to the Templars than I was before (and that's not easy).  I also resent Bioware for ruining one of my favorite characters and making me do the Templar's dirty work.

IN SPITE of this, however, Anders has become a murderous abomination.  He has to die, whatever my sympathies are.  If I don't do it as a mage, then the idea of mages being able to police themselves becomes a sick joke.

-Polaris

I'm curious, Polaris, as to what kind of player you are. Do you do a single playthrough making the decisions that you yourself would make in those situations, or do you do multiple playthroughs with a variety of character personalities?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with either method, and I'm not setting you up for a personal attack or anything, but the way you talk makes it sound as if there is no world where you could find it possible to spare Anders.
I understand that you're angry that BW has changed one of your favourites for the worse, but isn't it still possible to explore his character and story in spite of that?

Not for me.  Anders is forevermore and completely ruined for me.  I do do multiple playtroughs to learn the world, but I will always kill Anders and I will be angry with Bioware everytime I do.  Somethings are fundamental enough that I won't do it another way, and letting a clear and dangerous abomination live is one of them.

-Polaris

What if there was an option to separate the two entities and banish Justice/Vengence back to the Fade, like with what happened with Connor? Would you still kill Anders then for making the mistake to bond with Justice, even though he is now no longer linked with the spirit turned demon? Or would you spare him now that he is no longer technically an immediate threat?
(Like Three I'm merely curious. It's interesting to hear different takes on the situation and how others would react.)

Modifié par Nyaore, 15 février 2011 - 06:43 .

[Threeparts]

IanPolaris wrote...

Not for me.  Anders is forevermore and completely ruined for me.  I do do multiple playtroughs to learn the world, but I will always kill Anders and I will be angry with Bioware everytime I do.  Somethings are fundamental enough that I won't do it another way, and letting a clear and dangerous abomination live is one of them.

-Polaris

Fair enough! 
I do wonder if we'll even have the option to kill Anders. He seems pretty plot-central for the first part of the game, and we're not yet sure how the Circle conflict will play out. If you're prevented from killing him during the first half of the game, do you think it would be possible for him to be redeemed in your eyes, whether through being cleansed of the demon or regaining full control of himself? Or would you execute him regardless given the crimes he's already commited?

ETA: Nyaore and I had the same thought, it seems!

Modifié par Threeparts, 15 février 2011 - 06:44 .

[atheelogos]

IanPolaris wrote...

I hate what Bioware has done to Anders. IMHO it was done to "prove" just how supposedly dangerous mages are. I smell DG in this.

*severe disapproval*

Mind you, when I play DA2, I will try to emancipate the circles, but I won't hesitate to kill Anders who is clearly an abomination now. Shame on you bioware.

-Polaris

He's an abomination now? I hadn't heard that. "Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control" It sounds like he won't become an abomination unless he loses his internal fight with the demon. I mean really your not going even try and save him?

[IanPolaris]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I agree with all of this and it also makes me less sympathetic to the Templars than I was before (and that's not easy).  I also resent Bioware for ruining one of my favorite characters and making me do the Templar's dirty work.

IN SPITE of this, however, Anders has become a murderous abomination.  He has to die, whatever my sympathies are.  If I don't do it as a mage, then the idea of mages being able to police themselves becomes a sick joke.

-Polaris

Yeah. I can understand taking a hard-line stance on abominations as a general rule. I had zero problem offing Uldred; however, due to the circumstances, I'm willing to give Anders a little latitude first before making any final decisions. If Anders can be brought back to something close to normal, then I think he and Justice/Vengeance might deserve a chance. That being said, if he proves to be a menace and there's no way to fix things, well, I suppose he'd have to be...killed. *sniffles a bit*

I think if you play a mage and especially if you play a bloodmage, then you have to take a completely uncompromising hard line towards abominations.  It's not like spirits (even so-called 'benign' ones) are going to cut you any slack and as a mage (and esp a maleficar) you have a special responsibility to police your fellows for abominations because no one else really can (and no especially not the Templars).  If there is some miraculous Deus Ex-Machina that let's me cure Anders, I might consider it (I did for Conner after all), but the difference is this:

1. Anders is a fully trained mage (Spirit Healer even!) with extensive knowledge of spirits and the fade.  He knew damn well he was playing with fire!

2.  Anders is guilty of mass murder because he did something he KNEW he shouldn't do (and even cautioned Justice against it in DAA).

That's why I am inclined to be far less forgiving of Anders than an apprentice child (Conner) who was simply and tragically tricked.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

atheelogos wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I hate what Bioware has done to Anders. IMHO it was done to "prove" just how supposedly dangerous mages are. I smell DG in this.

*severe disapproval*

Mind you, when I play DA2, I will try to emancipate the circles, but I won't hesitate to kill Anders who is clearly an abomination now. Shame on you bioware.

-Polaris

He's an abomination now? I hadn't heard that. "Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control" It sounds like he won't become an abomination unless he loses his internal fight with the demon. I mean really your not going even try and save him?

If a demonic spirit occupies a mage's body, it is by definition an abomination.  Not only that but Anders DOES lose control and goes on mass murder sprees.  If my bloodmage doesn't control him, then no one will, and the idea that mages can police other mages becomes a sick joke.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Threeparts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Not for me.  Anders is forevermore and completely ruined for me.  I do do multiple playtroughs to learn the world, but I will always kill Anders and I will be angry with Bioware everytime I do.  Somethings are fundamental enough that I won't do it another way, and letting a clear and dangerous abomination live is one of them.

-Polaris

Fair enough! 
I do wonder if we'll even have the option to kill Anders. He seems pretty plot-central for the first part of the game, and we're not yet sure how the Circle conflict will play out. If you're prevented from killing him during the first half of the game, do you think it would be possible for him to be redeemed in your eyes, whether through being cleansed of the demon or regaining full control of himself? Or would you execute him regardless given the crimes he's already commited?

ETA: Nyaore and I had the same thought, it seems!

I will have to play the game of course.  None of us have complete information.  If I have to keep Anders alive to free the mage circles, I will be a seriously ticked off player (as in ticked off enough possibly not to buy another bioware product ticked off).  It might be possible for Anders to be redeemed, but my mages (both DAO Warden and future bloodhawke mages) will be a very hard sell.  IMHO maleficar in particular have to take a very hard, even cruel, and uncompromising stance towards spirit possession since the temptations otherwise......

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 15 février 2011 - 06:53 .

[The Elder King]

Anders didn't mean to kill all of these people. When he did this he was in a "abomination" status. Infact when he regained control he even said that what he did wasn't justice.

I agree with you that he did something stupid but to me he didn't know that Justice was going to became a demon, or if Justice was already demonized he didn't see that. You justified the mages of the Circle of Ferelden that started a revolution and killed innocent mages.

I only said that you might give a chance to Anders. See what he said about all this.

[IanPolaris]

hhh89 wrote...

Anders didn't mean to kill all of these people. When he did this he was in a "abomination" status. Infact when he regained control he even said that what he did wasn't justice.

I didn't mean to kill those children in the daycare when I ran my truck full of explosives into the federal building.  Sound familiar?  Didn't buy it for the OKC Bomber and I am not buying it for Anders.

I agree with you that he did something stupid but to me he didn't know that Justice was going to became a demon, or if Justice was already demonized he didn't see that. You justified the mages of the Circle of Ferelden that started a revolution and killed innocent mages.

Anders knew it was a possibility and Anders had more than enough experience in the fade and with spirits (remember he was a spirit healer himself!) to know better.  That makes him responsible.  This isn't about using forbidden knowledge to try to make yourself free.  it's not about fighting others (who are blameless themselves) who wind up on the other side of the battleline.  This is a deliberate selling of your soul to get your own desires.  No excuse.  A Maleficar has to take an especially hard line against abominations and spirit possession for what should be obvious reasons.

I only said that you might give a chance to Anders. See what he said about all this.

My blood-hawk is going to be a VERY hard sell.

-Polaris

[SgtElias]

IanPolaris wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

He's an abomination now? I hadn't heard that. "Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control" It sounds like he won't become an abomination unless he loses his internal fight with the demon. I mean really your not going even try and save him?

If a demonic spirit occupies a mage's body, it is by definition an abomination.  Not only that but Anders DOES lose control and goes on mass murder sprees.  If my bloodmage doesn't control him, then no one will, and the idea that mages can police other mages becomes a sick joke.

-Polaris

I agree with almost everything you're saying Polaris, and I agree: if the mages don't learn to police themselves, and well, this whole mess with the Chantry is going to happen forever.

However, I just wanted to point out that, as far as we know, Anders doesn't go on "mass muder sprees." He did it once, one time, to a group of people who had attacked him/were about to attack him. I surmise (and I could be very wrong) that had they left him alone, or had he been with the Warden-Commander, or Oghren, or Nathaniel, or anyone else from Awakening, he wouldn't have gone nuts, lost control and killed those in the vicinity. Because the fundamental difference between him and a regular abomination is he does have some measure of control.

Though I hear what you're saying; if his grasp is that tenuous, from a mage's perspective it'd probably be best just to end him and take no chances.

I, however, will not go that route, for reason I have already stated. But I like that you'll be true to your convictions and characters.

[atheelogos]

hhh89 wrote...
You justified the mages of the Circle of Ferelden that started a revolution and killed innocent mages.
I only said that you might give a chance to Anders. See what he said about all this.

Point well made. Also what is this killing spree people are talking about?

[Threeparts]

IanPolaris wrote...

I will have to play the game of course.  None of us have complete information.  If I have to keep Anders alive to free the mage circles, I will be a seriously ticked off player (as in ticked off enough possibly not to buy another bioware product ticked off).  It might be possible for Anders to be redeemed, but my mages (both DAO Warden and future bloodhawke mages) will be a very hard sell.  IMHO maleficar in particular have to take a very hard, even cruel, and uncompromising stance towards spirit possession since the temptations otherwise......

-Polaris

I really admire this hard-line, uncompromising take on it. It's not a view I think I could take myself, but I do find it appealing, especially the preservation of maleficar at the cost of one of your own. Maintaining those ideals even at the cost of someone you like is something I'd enjoy seeing in a book or movie, but not something I think I could pull off myself. I find it hard enough making some decision in DA:O that don't mean harming a party member.
That said, you'll have to let us know how your playthrough goes, and if Anders ever manages to redeem himself in your eyes.


Also, I like this thread, and the conversations it sparks. Less of the "omg, is that a picture of his elbow? omg omg omg!" and more of the interesting takes on abominations, the Chantry and Kirkwall politics and how it relates to our favourite mage. Not that the occasional picture hurts, mind you!

[IanPolaris]

atheelogos wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
You justified the mages of the Circle of Ferelden that started a revolution and killed innocent mages.
I only said that you might give a chance to Anders. See what he said about all this.

Point well made. Also what is this killing spree people are talking about?

The killing spree is in Ander's shortstory.  I don't have a link handy unfortunately

-Polaris

[GuldiienDAO]

IanPolaris wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
You justified the mages of the Circle of Ferelden that started a revolution and killed innocent mages.
I only said that you might give a chance to Anders. See what he said about all this.

Point well made. Also what is this killing spree people are talking about?

The killing spree is in Ander's shortstory.  I don't have a link handy unfortunately

-Polaris

http://social.biowar...46067/1#6046116

[SgtElias]

Threeparts wrote...

Also, I like this thread, and the conversations it sparks. Less of the "omg, is that a picture of his elbow? omg omg omg!" and more of the interesting takes on abominations, the Chantry and Kirkwall politics and how it relates to our favourite mage. Not that the occasional picture hurts, mind you!

Oh, there's plenty of that, too.

Gotta have some fun from time to time . . .

[The Elder King]

Ian, he didn't even remember what he have done. And they were trying to kill him. Plus, I don't recall in any DA lore that a spirit could become a demon. In truth, people in Thedas (at least in the Andrastian society) didn't know quite nothing about spirits.
And I don't think that Bioware made Anders like that to say "look, mages are bad people". They even made him romanceable. In my opinion to arrive at this point he has to be free from Vengeance possession. His situation resembles Connor's in the type of possession, because he accepeted it.

edit: I'm not trying to convince you to not kill Anders. I admire you coerency. But since I believe that they're not going to let you kill him at the start, try at least to see what he said about it.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 février 2011 - 07:07 .

[IanPolaris]

SgtElias wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

He's an abomination now? I hadn't heard that. "Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control" It sounds like he won't become an abomination unless he loses his internal fight with the demon. I mean really your not going even try and save him?

If a demonic spirit occupies a mage's body, it is by definition an abomination.  Not only that but Anders DOES lose control and goes on mass murder sprees.  If my bloodmage doesn't control him, then no one will, and the idea that mages can police other mages becomes a sick joke.

-Polaris

I agree with almost everything you're saying Polaris, and I agree: if the mages don't learn to police themselves, and well, this whole mess with the Chantry is going to happen forever.

Exactly.  If mages want to live in society, then they have to prove they can police themselves and do it in a very obvious and visible manner so there is no mistake by anyone.  That unfortunately can mean a lot of blood, but when establishing the 'law', it has to be done.  The alternative (Templars) is not an acceptable option.

However, I just wanted to point out that, as far as we know, Anders doesn't go on "mass muder sprees." He did it once, one time, to a group of people who had attacked him/were about to attack him. I surmise (and I could be very wrong) that had they left him alone, or had he been with the Warden-Commander, or Oghren, or Nathaniel, or anyone else from Awakening, he wouldn't have gone nuts, lost control and killed those in the vicinity. Because the fundamental difference between him and a regular abomination is he does have some measure of control.

Though I hear what you're saying; if his grasp is that tenuous, from a mage's perspective it'd probably be best just to end him and take no chances.

Exactly.  Being a mage and especially a maleficar is about control.  If you can't be trusted to control yourself, then you are not safe and you need to be put down preferably by one of your own.

I, however, will not go that route, for reason I have already stated. But I like that you'll be true to your convictions and characters.

I want to see what options Bioware actually allows me.  FWIW, when Wynne revealed she had a resident spirit, my maleficar Grey Warden would have killed her on the spot had that option been available.  Same reason.

-Polaris

[atheelogos]

GuldiienDAO wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
You justified the mages of the Circle of Ferelden that started a revolution and killed innocent mages.
I only said that you might give a chance to Anders. See what he said about all this.

Point well made. Also what is this killing spree people are talking about?

The killing spree is in Ander's shortstory.  I don't have a link handy unfortunately

-Polaris

http://social.biowar...46067/1#6046116

thanks much

[sassperella]

BTW just a thought about the whole eaten flesh thing.....



He tears off the head of that guy - that goes with the rent limbs part. But at the beginning of the fight he burns the flesh off of one guy's face. Melting flesh off could also be classified as eaten - acid eats through things etc. so it may just be an observation of the state of the corpses that their flesh has been melted away rather than Vanders actually eating it.

[IanPolaris]

hhh89 wrote...

Ian, he didn't even remember what he have done. And they were trying to kill him. Plus, I don't recall in any DA lore that a spirit could become a demon. In truth, people in Thedas (at least in the Andrastian society) didn't know quite nothing about spirits.

It's in the DAA banter and lore.  Justice even states that demons are spirits that have learned to desire what mortals possess in the mundane world.  Justice in DAA is clearly becoming a demon by the end of it and Anders not only knows this but calls Justice on this at least once.  So Anders is selling his soul to a spirit that is not only unstable but one that he knows is already becoming a demon before it even takes up residence!  That makes Anders completely responsible for what happens next.  I also suppose the fact they were trying to kill him excuses Anders eating their flesh and driking their blood?  Really???

And I don't think that Bioware made Anders like that to say "look, mages are bad people". They even made him romanceable. In my opinion to arrive at this point he has to be free from Vengeance possession. His situation resembles Connor's in the type of possession, because he accepeted it.

Conner was tricked.  Anders knew full well what he was doing.

edit: I'm not trying to convince you to not kill Anders. I admire you coerency. But since I believe that they're not going to let you kill him at the start, try at least to see what he said about it.

If they don't, then Bioware may not be seeing much of my money in the future.  We shall see.

-Polaris

[GuldiienDAO]

IanPolaris wrote...


I want to see what options Bioware actually allows me.  FWIW, when Wynne revealed she had a resident spirit, my maleficar Grey Warden would have killed her on the spot had that option been available.  Same reason.

-Polaris

Why Wynne? She never lost control and, as far as I can remember, her spirit was completly benevolent.

[Miri1984]

@Polaris Did you kill Sten or leave him for the darkspawn? He killed a family of innocents for no reason other than that they couldn't tell him where his sword was.

[atheelogos]

IanPolaris wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Ian, he didn't even remember what he have done. And they were trying to kill him. Plus, I don't recall in any DA lore that a spirit could become a demon. In truth, people in Thedas (at least in the Andrastian society) didn't know quite nothing about spirits.

It's in the DAA banter and lore.  Justice even states that demons are spirits that have learned to desire what mortals possess in the mundane world.  Justice in DAA is clearly becoming a demon by the end of it and Anders not only knows this but calls Justice on this at least once.  So Anders is selling his soul to a spirit that is not only unstable but one that he knows is already becoming a demon before it even takes up residence!  That makes Anders completely responsible for what happens next.  I also suppose the fact they were trying to kill him excuses Anders eating their flesh and driking their blood?  Really???

And I don't think that Bioware made Anders like that to say "look, mages are bad people". They even made him romanceable. In my opinion to arrive at this point he has to be free from Vengeance possession. His situation resembles Connor's in the type of possession, because he accepeted it.

Conner was tricked.  Anders knew full well what he was doing.

edit: I'm not trying to convince you to not kill Anders. I admire you coerency. But since I believe that they're not going to let you kill him at the start, try at least to see what he said about it.

If they don't, then Bioware may not be seeing much of my money in the future.  We shall see.

-Polaris

As Morrigan would say, I have a wonder? Did you kill Sten for what he did?

[IanPolaris]

GuldiienDAO wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


I want to see what options Bioware actually allows me.  FWIW, when Wynne revealed she had a resident spirit, my maleficar Grey Warden would have killed her on the spot had that option been available.  Same reason.

-Polaris

Why Wynne? She never lost control and, as far as I can remember, her spirit was completly benevolent.

Was it?  Are you so sure?  How do you know you are even speaking to Wynne and not a Demonesse of Pride (which is my own belief).  You don't.  You do know that Wynne shows a shocking tendency to betray the party (more than any other NPC) and shocking lack of competance in the fade and as a mage for somone of her seniority.  I am not convinced at all how benevolent Wynne is.

Now to be completely fair in my canon run, I simply left Wynne at the circle tower because she did not pass her audition (no mage should be fooled in the fade) and that was that.  I admit her case is less clear cut than Anders, but possession is possession.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Polaris Did you kill Sten or leave him for the darkspawn? He killed a family of innocents for no reason other than that they couldn't tell him where his sword was.

Not the same thing.  Sten shows regret for what he did, and it's not like I ever just "let him go".  His punishment is to fight the darkspawn, and if I had the materials for the joining, I would have recruited him into the wardens then and there.  It's still a death sentence but at least this way, you get some use out of him.

What Anders did was less forgivaeble if only because if a maleficar won't take this hard and uncomprosing line, then the Templars have all the excuse they need to continue their unjust system.

-Polaris