6655 réponses à ce sujet

[casedawgz]

Where are people seeing all this stuff about him killing people and claiming it wasn't Justice? Is there some new source of info somewhere I don't know about?

[IanPolaris]

Don't you see, it's BECAUSE Anders did something that ordinary people fear the most from mages and the one thing that the Chantry harps on as an excuse to control mages, is WHY I have to be so uncompromising and even rigid towards Anders (and even Wynne).



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

casedawgz wrote...

Where are people seeing all this stuff about him killing people and claiming it wasn't Justice? Is there some new source of info somewhere I don't know about?

Yes. 

http://social.biowar...46067/1#6046116

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

This thread is now Cambodia.

[atheelogos]

IanPolaris wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@Polaris Did you kill Sten or leave him for the darkspawn? He killed a family of innocents for no reason other than that they couldn't tell him where his sword was.

Not the same thing.  Sten shows regret for what he did, and it's not like I ever just "let him go".  His punishment is to fight the darkspawn, and if I had the materials for the joining, I would have recruited him into the wardens then and there.  It's still a death sentence but at least this way, you get some use out of him.

What Anders did was less forgivaeble if only because if a maleficar won't take this hard and uncomprosing line, then the Templars have all the excuse they need to continue their unjust system.

-Polaris

Interesting thank you.

[Threeparts]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This thread is now Cambodia.

Please don't start anything here, if that was your intent. We're having a debate, and I think for the most part we've agreed to disagree in an adult fashion. I certainly see where he's coming from and why, even if I don't hold the same views.

Modifié par Threeparts, 15 février 2011 - 07:36 .

[SgtElias]

IanPolaris wrote...

What Anders did was less forgivaeble if only because if a maleficar won't take this hard and uncomprosing line, then the Templars have all the excuse they need to continue their unjust system.

-Polaris

I agree completely what you're trying to do, but if mages, in their haste to be rid of Chantry/Templar oversight, deal too harshly or heavy-handedly with their own, unwilling to compromise or allow for exceptions, then you run the risk of creating your own unjust system.

Now, I don't know if that will ultimately apply to Anders; I guess we'll see in less than a month.

[sassperella]

I think whatever happens this is going to have a tragic ending. There should be an Anders edition of the game complete with a box of tissues free.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I like Polaris' take on it. It's coherent and consistent, vis a vis the position he has argued for God knows how many times.

My blood mage Hawke on the otherhand is too curious of a being to destroy a spirit turned demon before studying it, and possibly finding a way to reverse the process. To harness the power of spirits, but make mages immune to demonic possession, or at least less likely to be affected (think of the potential. Methods to counter act demons that might be more effective than the Harrowing). This is a rare thing that has happened, and I think it would be a waste to destroy vengeance off the bat.

Hopefully Bioware will give us the chance to study the phenomenon and possibly uncover crucial knowledge on spirits / demons.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 février 2011 - 07:42 .

[IanPolaris]

SgtElias wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What Anders did was less forgivaeble if only because if a maleficar won't take this hard and uncomprosing line, then the Templars have all the excuse they need to continue their unjust system.

-Polaris

I agree completely what you're trying to do, but if mages, in their haste to be rid of Chantry/Templar oversight, deal too harshly or heavy-handedly with their own, unwilling to compromise or allow for exceptions, then you run the risk of creating your own unjust system.

Now, I don't know if that will ultimately apply to Anders; I guess we'll see in less than a month.

I am not suggesting that Anders be judged unfairly, or that he be denied basic rights without reason, but this is an open and shut case of a mage CHOOSING to become an abomination and causing the deaths of others as a direct result.  If his fellow maleficar can not judge a case like this and throw the book at Anders, then the idea that mages will police themselves becomes a sick joke.  This is such an obvious case that you HAVE to be hard and uncompromising.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

SgtElias wrote...
I agree completely what you're trying to do, but if mages, in their haste to be rid of Chantry/Templar oversight, deal too harshly or heavy-handedly with their own, unwilling to compromise or allow for exceptions, then you run the risk of creating your own unjust system.

Alternatively, letting mage murderers on the loose might be percieved by the vast majorty of non-mages as a new oppressive magocracy in the making.

I don't think that there are many people like Anders that would cause a mage civil war (think of the destruction) if they are delt with strictly and uncompromisingly. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 février 2011 - 07:41 .

[GuldiienDAO]

IanPolaris wrote...

Was it?  Are you so sure?  How do you know you are even speaking to Wynne and not a Demonesse of Pride (which is my own belief).  You don't.  You do know that Wynne shows a shocking tendency to betray the party (more than any other NPC) and shocking lack of competance in the fade and as a mage for somone of her seniority.  I am not convinced at all how benevolent Wynne is.

Now to be completely fair in my canon run, I simply left Wynne at the circle tower because she did not pass her audition (no mage should be fooled in the fade) and that was that.  I admit her case is less clear cut than Anders, but possession is possession.

-Polaris

Even if it was a demon of pride (which I think is a long stretch at best), does that make Wynne evil? So just because she might do bad things you would kill her? You should kill all blood mages while you are at it then because they have the possiblity to do bad things too. I'm just trying to understand you here.

[Miri1984]

@Polaris Have you played Awakening? Because all the dialogue that Anders and Justice (and to a greater extent, Justice and Nathaniel) indicates that this isn't the case. Justice WASN'T a demon - abominations are people who have been possessed by demons. So it depends on whether you're in the camp of "all fade spirits are demons" or not. If you are, that's fine. He became corrupted when he entered Anders - before that he was a spirit.

[HolyJellyfish]

I still think its going to come down the line that Anders / Justice / Vengeance holds the key to the truth behind the Darkspawn and a safe way to cleanse an abomination. Could be wrong, might be very wrong. But we know who Justice and Anders were before the connection : Good, morally right beings. Human desires corrupted what was intended to be good.



Wynne was an expression of the good between a spirit and mage. Anders may very well find that path.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

This thread is almost at 100! Whoo fangirls

[Threeparts]

GuldiienDAO wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Was it?  Are you so sure?  How do you know you are even speaking to Wynne and not a Demonesse of Pride (which is my own belief).  You don't.  You do know that Wynne shows a shocking tendency to betray the party (more than any other NPC) and shocking lack of competance in the fade and as a mage for somone of her seniority.  I am not convinced at all how benevolent Wynne is.

Now to be completely fair in my canon run, I simply left Wynne at the circle tower because she did not pass her audition (no mage should be fooled in the fade) and that was that.  I admit her case is less clear cut than Anders, but possession is possession.

-Polaris

Even if it was a demon of pride (which I think is a long stretch at best), does that make Wynne evil? So just because she might do bad things you would kill her? You should kill all blood mages while you are at it then because they have the possiblity to do bad things too. I'm just trying to understand you here.

From what I gather from his post, Polaris didn't kill Wynne, though - he simply didn't recruit her. Not necessarily because she had the potential to become an abomination, but because she simply wasn't a very good mage.
Anders, on the other hand, is dangerous, and has done bad things, and I can see why people would feel it necessary to kill him. If killing abominations is your number one priority, then it is, as he's said, an open and shut case. If your motives are coloured by other things, then it starts to get a little more complicated.

[SgtElias]

IanPolaris wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

I agree completely what you're trying to do, but if mages, in their haste to be rid of Chantry/Templar oversight, deal too harshly or heavy-handedly with their own, unwilling to compromise or allow for exceptions, then you run the risk of creating your own unjust system.

Now, I don't know if that will ultimately apply to Anders; I guess we'll see in less than a month.

I am not suggesting that Anders be judged unfairly, or that he be denied basic rights without reason, but this is an open and shut case of a mage CHOOSING to become an abomination and causing the deaths of others as a direct result.  If his fellow maleficar can not judge a case like this and throw the book at Anders, then the idea that mages will police themselves becomes a sick joke.  This is such an obvious case that you HAVE to be hard and uncompromising.

-Polaris

I don't think we know enough about what happened, or what exactly Anders is, to make it an open-and-shut case, that's all I'm saying.

I'd also sorta argue he didn't choose to become an abomination, so much as choose to join with Justice, and the part up for debate is whether or not he was a moron to make such a choice, but honestly, I have a TON of math homework I've been half-heartedly attempting while I follow this thread, and I should really get going on it a tad faster.

All I can say is I, personally, as both Elias and the Mage Warden, would have let Justice in my body, especially if I thought it'd shepard in a Mage Revolution. I wouldn't have guessed in a thousand years what would happen to me. Foresight is wonderful, but not everyone has it, including, apparently, Anders and myself.

Modifié par SgtElias, 15 février 2011 - 07:55 .

[Jean]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I still think its going to come down the line that Anders / Justice / Vengeance holds the key to the truth behind the Darkspawn and a safe way to cleanse an abomination. Could be wrong, might be very wrong. But we know who Justice and Anders were before the connection : Good, morally right beings. Human desires corrupted what was intended to be good.

Wynne was an expression of the good between a spirit and mage. Anders may very well find that path.

Maybe we'd have to choose between that, and well, his life and freedom. Would be a long stretch though, I'd reckon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Polaris Have you played Awakening? Because all the dialogue that Anders and Justice (and to a greater extent, Justice and Nathaniel) indicates that this isn't the case. Justice WASN'T a demon - abominations are people who have been possessed by demons. So it depends on whether you're in the camp of "all fade spirits are demons" or not. If you are, that's fine. He became corrupted when he entered Anders - before that he was a spirit.

Justice was most definitely changing. One can reasonably argue that his transformation into a demon (aka to want to feel what mortals feel. To desire something) already started by Awakening. He gets angry at Anders asking him if he can become a demon, anger that most likely reflects confusion and fear at the prospect. Add to that Justice's insistence on fighting oppression, with violence.

That makes Anders' acceptance of Justice irresponsable. Even if Justice was not a demon perse, he was unstable, confused and changing. So I think it is justified to punish Anders severily for his recklessness, even if it wasn't malevolent.

[SgtElias]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think that there are many people like Anders that would cause a mage civil war (think of the destruction) if they are delt with strictly and uncompromisingly. 

Fear only works so long. Eventually it ceases to be enough, and you have a real uprising on your hands.

Also, for every "Anders" dying for the cause, a martyr is created, which just fuels the flames of rebellion burning in more hearts than might be expected.

[Miri1984]

At KOP I am not for a moment suggesting that Anders could EVER have been considered a "responsible" person



However, he was pushed into extreme circumstances. It was pretty evident the Templar warden was just waiting for an opportunity to kill him. He would have been killed if he hadn't had Justice's help. I think that's a point that people are overlooking - the people he (yes ok) brutally murdered were doing their best to brutally murder him.



And we have no evidence that after this incident he then went on an unrestrained killing spree through Ferelden before ending up *running a hospital healing sick refugees* in Kirkwall.

[IanPolaris]

GuldiienDAO wrote...

Even if it was a demon of pride (which I think is a long stretch at best), does that make Wynne evil? So just because she might do bad things you would kill her? You should kill all blood mages while you are at it then because they have the possiblity to do bad things too. I'm just trying to understand you here.

Different things.  First of all I do think bloodmagic should be restricted (not banned but restricted), but ultimately bloodmagic is a tool much like any other.  It's a tool that's very powerful and especially prone to abuse and temptation but a tool.

With an abomination, you are dealing with an outside entitety that is violating another's person's right to exist in their own body and (esp if a demon) doing it for entirely self-centered reasons.  If the original personality arrives, then it's at best chattle slavery in comparison.  If not, it's murder.

There is a good reason why mages (esp maleficar) have to take a hard, and uncompromising line against abominations if for no other reason then they are the best ones to do it and the people need to see in as brutal a way possible that, yes, mages can and WILL police themselves.

-Polaris

[GuldiienDAO]

Threeparts wrote...

From what I gather from his post, Polaris didn't kill Wynne, though - he simply didn't recruit her. Not necessarily because she had the potential to become an abomination, but because she simply wasn't a very good mage.
Anders, on the other hand, is dangerous, and has done bad things, and I can see why people would feel it necessary to kill him. If killing abominations is your number one priority, then it is, as he's said, an open and shut case. If your motives are coloured by other things, then it starts to get a little more complicated.

I was refferring to this post...

IanPolaris wrote...


I want to see what options Bioware
actually allows me.  FWIW, when Wynne revealed she had a resident
spirit, my maleficar Grey Warden would have killed her on the spot had
that option been available.  Same reason.

-Polaris

He said he would kill Wynne for having a spirit. Unless I misunderstood something,

[KnightofPhoenix]

SgtElias wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think that there are many people like Anders that would cause a mage civil war (think of the destruction) if they are delt with strictly and uncompromisingly. 

Fear only works so long. Eventually it ceases to be enough, and you have a real uprising on your hands.

Also, for every "Anders" dying for the cause, a martyr is created, which just fuels the flames of rebellion burning in more hearts than might be expected.

Why would anyone, even mages, regard Anders as a martyr? He is losing control to a demon and the vast majority of mages realize the dangers and certainly don't want to be abominations. Was Uldred a martyr to anyone?
I am sure the vast majority of mages will accept his punishment as necessary. why would they think thatAnders is a martyr is beyond me, if he is or is becoming an abomination.

On the otherhand, allowing mages like Anders who were irresponsble to get away with it might anger the vast majority of non-mages, who will "remember" how the irresponsable mages caused the blights. 

Killing him is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable tradeoff to re-assure the masses that mages can self-police.

[IanPolaris]

SgtElias wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think that there are many people like Anders that would cause a mage civil war (think of the destruction) if they are delt with strictly and uncompromisingly. 

Fear only works so long. Eventually it ceases to be enough, and you have a real uprising on your hands.

Also, for every "Anders" dying for the cause, a martyr is created, which just fuels the flames of rebellion burning in more hearts than might be expected.

But you HAVE to start with the stick, i.e. fear.  Anders is a clear-cut abomination that is clearly guilty of murder.  Yes the Templar-Warden was most likely a traitor, but Anders went way beyond killing him.....way, way beyond....

If Mages don't make an object lesson of someone like Anders, then any suggestion of mages policing themselves becomes a sick, laughable joke.

Yes, you eventially have to codify the laws and have a firm and fair system, but the boot has to come down first and object lessons need to be made FIRST.

-Polaris