6655 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Miri1984 wrote...
However, he was pushed into extreme circumstances. It was pretty evident the Templar warden was just waiting for an opportunity to kill him. He would have been killed if he hadn't had Justice's help. I think that's a point that people are overlooking - the people he (yes ok) brutally murdered were doing their best to brutally murder him.

Coudn't he just mind blast them and run away? I don't think he was that backed into a corner. 

I can understand both positions really and I am not arguing that any of them is invalid. I am supporting Polaris' argument cause I like it. But I can certainly see somneone giving Anders a second chance (and hopefully keep it a secret).

I on the otherhand wish to study and unlock hidden potential.

[IanPolaris]

SgtElias wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I am not suggesting that Anders be judged unfairly, or that he be denied basic rights without reason, but this is an open and shut case of a mage CHOOSING to become an abomination and causing the deaths of others as a direct result.  If his fellow maleficar can not judge a case like this and throw the book at Anders, then the idea that mages will police themselves becomes a sick joke.  This is such an obvious case that you HAVE to be hard and uncompromising.

-Polaris

I don't think we know enough about what happened, or what exactly Anders is, to make it an open-and-shut case, that's all I'm saying.

It doesn't matter.  Anders is clearly possessed by a demonic spirit.  That spirit can and has controlled the mage and killed multiple people in so doing.  Anders is an abomination.  Open and shut case.

I'd also sorta argue he didn't choose to become an abomination, so much as choose to join with Justice, and the part up for debate is whether or not he was a moron to make such a choice, but honestly, I have a TON of math homework I've been half-heartedly attempting while I follow this thread, and I should really get going on it a tad faster.

Justice was changing, becoming more irritable, and clearly starting to have desires to be like a mortal.  In short, Justice was slowly becoming a demon all the way through DAA and Anders even calls him on it at which point Justice loses his temper (not a good sign there).  Anders DEFINATELY should have known better.

All I can say is I, personally, as both Elias and the Mage Warden, would have let Justice in my body, especially if I thought it'd shepard in a Mage Revolution. I wouldn't have guessed in a thousand years what would happen to me. Foresight is wonderful, but not everyone has it, including, apparently, Anders and myself.

Forsight nothing.  Maeglin would never have done it even if he life depending on it.  Once you let a spirit (ANY spirit) in, you can not change your mind later.  Not possible.  Anders knew this and Anders knew that Justice was becoming more and more demonic and if you read the short story at the time Anders knew it was a bad idea and did it anyway.

Open and shut case.  If his fellow Maleficar can't throw the book at a case like Anders, then any idea that mages can police themselves becomes a most bitter joke.

-Polaris

[SgtElias]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

Fear only works so long. Eventually it ceases to be enough, and you have a real uprising on your hands.

Also, for every "Anders" dying for the cause, a martyr is created, which just fuels the flames of rebellion burning in more hearts than might be expected.

Why would anyone, even mages, regard Anders as a martyr? He is losing control to a demon and the vast majority of mages realize the dangers and certainly don't want to be abominations. Was Uldred a martyr to anyone?
I am sure the vast majority of mages will accept his punishment as necessary. why would they think thatAnders is a martyr is beyond me, if he is or is becoming an abomination.

On the otherhand, allowing mages like Anders who were irresponsble to get away with it might anger the vast majority of non-mages, who will "remember" how the irresponsable mages caused the blights. 

Killing him is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable tradeoff to re-assure the masses that mages can self-police.

I didn't mean Anders, specifically, would be a martyr. That's why I put his name in quotes. I thought you were saying that people in general wouldn't stand up and fight if they were quickly dealt with, so I responded that people in general will stand up eventually, no matter the risk, and all those that die for doing so are usually branded "martyrs."

Sorry, I guess I was confused about what we were talking about.

[Miri1984]

I believe it is appropriate. And on that note, I shall retire for the evening.

[IanPolaris]

KoP,



What you are saying is precisely my argument. If you really believe that mages should be given the rights as full citizens and given an integral part of policing themselves, then mages (esp Maleficar who have the most to prove) need to show the most hard and uncompromising line here.



Mind you, these judgements must always be FAIR but they need to be hard and easy to understand. In this case, I am being perfectly fair (if hard) towards Anders.



-Polaris

[Selenora]

Pseudocognition wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I refuse to rest until I know the status of Ser Pounce-a-lot.

Why must you be so cruel, BioWare? Why the cat? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

He ate the cat.

He did WHAT????

[KnightofPhoenix]

SgtElias wrote...
I didn't mean Anders, specifically, would be a martyr. That's why I put his name in quotes. I thought you were saying that people in general wouldn't stand up and fight if they were quickly dealt with, so I responded that people in general will stand up eventually, no matter the risk, and all those that die for doing so are usually branded "martyrs."

Sorry, I guess I was confused about what we were talking about.

No I was saying that there aren't many people like Anders (at least in human societies), so punishing him severily is very unlikely to cause a mage civil war or schism.

I would argue against what you posted now, but that would go OT

[upsettingshorts]

Selenora wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I refuse to rest until I know the status of Ser Pounce-a-lot.

Why must you be so cruel, BioWare? Why the cat? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

He ate the cat.

He did WHAT????

His commanding officer in the Grey Wardens was Colonel Angus.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 février 2011 - 08:11 .

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

I just hope you are given a moral decision that concerns whether or not you get to kill off this prissy mage. 

They can make him dark and broody all they want, but I'll always remember him as a prissy mage who's voice wanted me to lend him a pair of testicles. That they are throwing this, of all our old companions, veritable chalice of ugh at us makes me sad.

Never trust a man who's a cat person. Totally skeevy.

[IanPolaris]

SgtElias wrote...

I didn't mean Anders, specifically, would be a martyr. That's why I put his name in quotes. I thought you were saying that people in general wouldn't stand up and fight if they were quickly dealt with, so I responded that people in general will stand up eventually, no matter the risk, and all those that die for doing so are usually branded "martyrs."

Sorry, I guess I was confused about what we were talking about.

I get what you are talking about, which is why in my last point I made the point about fairness.  If mages know that the Maleficar will take an uncompromising but FAIR line, I don't think you will see much (if any) resentment.  Oh a few will resent the law being laid down (there are always a few that feel the rules don't apply to them) but for the most part, as long as the "law" is "tough but fair", then mages will overall applaud.  [I am sure the Aequarians would.]

That's why I would put the boot down on Anders and put it down hard.  The man is a clear and dangerous abomination and he knew better.  No excuses.

-Polaris

[SgtElias]

IanPolaris wrote...

Open and shut case.  If his fellow Maleficar can't throw the book at a case like Anders, then any idea that mages can police themselves becomes a most bitter joke.

-Polaris

Well, like I said, I disagree, and you know why, but I respect your opinion and sort of agree with a lot of it, so I'll agree to disagree about the subject of Anders.

And you know I'm all for mages in charge of themselves. I can hardly wait to see what sort of choices we'll get to make about this very issue in the next game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KoP,

What you are saying is precisely my argument. If you really believe that mages should be given the rights as full citizens and given an integral part of policing themselves, then mages (esp Maleficar who have the most to prove) need to show the most hard and uncompromising line here.

Mind you, these judgements must always be FAIR but they need to be hard and easy to understand. In this case, I am being perfectly fair (if hard) towards Anders.

-Polaris

Question though. Say no one (or very very few) knows what is happening with Anders, so you have nothing to prove to others perse vis a vis him, and you are given a chance to free him from vengeance. Would you free him? Or punish him out of principle regardless?

[Threeparts]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

I just hope you are given a moral decision that concerns whether or not you get to kill off this prissy mage. 

They can make him dark and broody all they want, but I'll always remember him as a prissy mage who's voice wanted me to lend him a pair of testicles. That they are throwing this, of all our old companions, veritable chalice of ugh at us makes me sad.

Never trust a man who's a cat person. Totally skeevy.

My fiance is a cat person. Please don't tell me he's going to turn into an abomination. 

[SgtElias]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No I was saying that there aren't many people like Anders (at least in human societies), so punishing him severily is very unlikely to cause a mage civil war or schism.

I would argue against what you posted now, but that would go OT

Oh, okay. Well in that case I agree. Societally, it makes perfect sense.

Weeeell you could PM me, and we could talk about it, if you're interested. However, no guarantees for tonight; have lots of homework, and it's already midnight.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

KoP,

What you are saying is precisely my argument. If you really believe that mages should be given the rights as full citizens and given an integral part of policing themselves, then mages (esp Maleficar who have the most to prove) need to show the most hard and uncompromising line here.

Mind you, these judgements must always be FAIR but they need to be hard and easy to understand. In this case, I am being perfectly fair (if hard) towards Anders.

-Polaris

Question though. Say no one (or very very few) knows what is happening with Anders, so you have nothing to prove to others perse vis a vis him, and you are given a chance to free him from vengeance. Would you free him? Or punish him out of principle regardless?

Punish out of principle regardless.  Word spreads and often in mysterious and unpredictable ways.  If you are brutally and uncompromisingly consistant, the word will get around.  If you are a hypocrit, that word will also get around (and not in a good way).

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 15 février 2011 - 08:20 .

[Threeparts]

IanPolaris wrote...

I get what you are talking about, which is why in my last point I made the point about fairness.  If mages know that the Maleficar will take an uncompromising but FAIR line, I don't think you will see much (if any) resentment.  Oh a few will resent the law being laid down (there are always a few that feel the rules don't apply to them) but for the most part, as long as the "law" is "tough but fair", then mages will overall applaud.  [I am sure the Aequarians would.]

That's why I would put the boot down on Anders and put it down hard.  The man is a clear and dangerous abomination and he knew better.  No excuses.

-Polaris

I'm curious to how many mages you feel would consent to being policed by maleficar. That is, mages who are proficient enough in blood magic to use it against them. Given that there is the potential for mental manipulation, do you believe mages would trust someone who could claim they were killing an abomination when it was in fact the maleficar who allowed the person to become possessed in the first place? Not that it is so in Anders' case, but why would mages choose to believe the maleficar's story over the abomination's? I feel that, to many traditional mages, one would be very much as bad as the other.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SgtElias wrote...
Weeeell you could PM me, and we could talk about it, if you're interested. However, no guarantees for tonight; have lots of homework, and it's already midnight.

Yea same, way too tired now lol
Hopefully some other time


And to be hoenst people, at first I dreaded to visit the DA2 section, mostly because I didnt' think discussion was possible here, and I feared that it would take many months after release to be able to discuss properly. This thread proved me wrong and I am thankfull.

[IanPolaris]

Threeparts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I get what you are talking about, which is why in my last point I made the point about fairness.  If mages know that the Maleficar will take an uncompromising but FAIR line, I don't think you will see much (if any) resentment.  Oh a few will resent the law being laid down (there are always a few that feel the rules don't apply to them) but for the most part, as long as the "law" is "tough but fair", then mages will overall applaud.  [I am sure the Aequarians would.]

That's why I would put the boot down on Anders and put it down hard.  The man is a clear and dangerous abomination and he knew better.  No excuses.

-Polaris

I'm curious to how many mages you feel would consent to being policed by maleficar. That is, mages who are proficient enough in blood magic to use it against them. Given that there is the potential for mental manipulation, do you believe mages would trust someone who could claim they were killing an abomination when it was in fact the maleficar who allowed the person to become possessed in the first place? Not that it is so in Anders' case, but why would mages choose to believe the maleficar's story over the abomination's? I feel that, to many traditional mages, one would be very much as bad as the other.

If you've read my thoughts on this in other threads, I think that ultimately mages and mundanes together would have to make a joint task-group (say the Knightly Lyrium Order or something like that) to moniter, regulate, and police magic.  Mages specfically selected for trustworthyness would play an important role in this as would mundane warriors (quite possibly trained in templar like talents).

However, like all things, you have to start somewhere and Maleficar are the biggest, baddest magical mo-fos around, and if mages are going to start showing they can police themselves, it has to start there (and the best way to police a malificar is with another malificar).

Not the clean answer I am sure you were hoping for, but it's the best I can give you for an imperfect world.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Punish out of principle regardless.  Word spreads and often in mysterious and unpredictable ways.  If you are brutally and uncompromisingly consistant, the word will get around.  If you are a hypocrit, that word will also get around (and not in a good way).

-Polaris

That's reasonable and prudent.
I guess it depends on whether your mage wants to establish a social experiment in the Free Marches or not.

I can't help but see it as a waste though. The phenomenon of a spirit turning into a demon (and possibly being able to turn back) is not only fascinating knowledge / academia wise, but also for possible practical applications. Granted, I am showing much more interest in Vengeance than I am with Anders and yes, it's risky.  

[Threeparts]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you've read my thoughts on this in other threads, I think that ultimately mages and mundanes together would have to make a joint task-group (say the Knightly Lyrium Order or something like that) to moniter, regulate, and police magic.  Mages specfically selected for trustworthyness would play an important role in this as would mundane warriors (quite possibly trained in templar like talents).

However, like all things, you have to start somewhere and Maleficar are the biggest, baddest magical mo-fos around, and if mages are going to start showing they can police themselves, it has to start there (and the best way to police a malificar is with another malificar).

Not the clean answer I am sure you were hoping for, but it's the best I can give you for an imperfect world.

-Polaris

No, it's fine, this isn't a clear-cut issue. It's obvious to me that there needs to be a change in the way mages are treated and an end to the Chantry's influence, but how it is supposed to come about and how governments and non-magi would deal with it makes the issue complicated. I understand that the opinion of the people in the Dragon Age world (well, Ferelden specifically) seems to be that the Chantry are doing the best they can in a poor situation, but we've had the privilege of seeing what goes on behind closed doors. Keeping the Templars addicted to lyrium just horrifies me and makes me wonder what other abuses the system is hiding.

I haven't read the two big Chantry/Magi threads floating around in any depth, but if the debate is as interesting and civil as this has been, I shall pop around when I'm not so preoccupied just keeping up with this one!

[IanPolaris]

KoP,



Your Hawke, and thus your privledge of course. I play my own Maleficar (Warden or Hawke) with a somewhat different take. I see where you are coming from, and see the potential, but I don't think it's worth the risk. Of course the actual game presentation may yet change my mind. We shall see.



-Polaris

[SgtElias]

Threeparts wrote...

I haven't read the two big Chantry/Magi threads floating around in any depth, but if the debate is as interesting and civil as this has been, I shall pop around when I'm not so preoccupied just keeping up with this one!

I'd say they're just as interesting, but not as civil. Though Ser Polaris is more familiar with that than I am; I got tired of arguing and left after awhile, but he's stuck it out for quite some time.

Though yay for us, everyone, for having this conversation without bickering.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Threeparts wrote...
I'm curious to how many mages you feel would consent to being policed by maleficar. That is, mages who are proficient enough in blood magic to use it against them. Given that there is the potential for mental manipulation, do you believe mages would trust someone who could claim they were killing an abomination when it was in fact the maleficar who allowed the person to become possessed in the first place? Not that it is so in Anders' case, but why would mages choose to believe the maleficar's story over the abomination's? I feel that, to many traditional mages, one would be very much as bad as the other.

Which is better. Tranquilization, or "inception" via blood magic that steers a mage away from dangerous knowledge or removes dangerous thoughts?

Of course I realize fully well the possible abuses that kind of system would engender.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes never has an easy answer.

What I am most interested in and this is a sentiment I have expressed for a long time, is how Ancient Tevinter handled it. I wouldn't mind the use of blood magic for mental manipulation if it's used to prevent disasters, but that has to be policed somehow. 

[IanPolaris]

KoP,

I'm curious as well how Ancient Tevinter handled it. If I had to guess, it probably would be much like we handle highly sensitive material and people today: A combination of selecting out the very best and most trustworthy to be your gardians AND making sure that no one person has total accountablilty.

Again hardly a perfect system (just look at the world today) but it works more or less. I suspect that Tevinter did that with ancient blood and mind-control magic (esp if the mindcontrol magic were more difficult than popular rumor makes out....which I think may be the case given Uldred's difficulty with how own mind-control rite).

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 15 février 2011 - 08:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think two agencies, one made of mages to watch over mages, and the other made of non-mages to watch over the former, is a viable possibility, which is what you suggested earlier on. And both should be linked to governments. They are more likely to see the mages as a valuable resource, something the Chantry will not realize anytime soon.