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[magicwins]

nenosronhir wrote...

@magicwins It might be desire<sloth, I'm not 100% sure. I do think that their strengths aren't so
much judged by their power in combat as their ability to seduce
mortals(and who better than desire and pride?) The Warden is able to
break free of Sloth's mental influence, but cannot break the influence
of a desire demon without extreme measures(blood ritual/several mages
for Connor, killing the templar in the circle, outwitting the demon
before it takes hold of the girl in Honnleath).

Killing the host outright was pretty easy in both cases. Now that you mention it, that girl was a child too, wasn't she? Hmm... I can see why mages are so dangerous.

[Aramintai]

@aramintai I think it's been stated a few places that those epilogue slides aren't written in stone, so to speak.

Meaning what? I know that Awakening addon was rushed\\buggy and so on. Does that mean that the plot and epilogues were rushed too and none of them should be taken seriously or be imported into the DA II? If so, then what's the point of Awakening anyway?

[SgtElias]

Aramintai wrote...

@aramintai I think it's been stated a few places that those epilogue slides aren't written in stone, so to speak.

Meaning what? I know that Awakening addon was rushed\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\buggy and so on. Does that mean that the plot and epilogues were rushed too and none of them should be taken seriously or be imported into the DA II? If so, then what's the point of Awakening anyway?

I think what was meant was just that some of them are open to interpretation. In some endings, if Anders "dies," it may mean that Justice chose that moment to inhabit his body. We're not entirely sure what the writers have planned.

Also, the epilogue, though I don't know if this is true, can also be what the PC or player thought happened, or what was recorded in the history books. In one of the endings, if you'd romanced Zevran in Origins it says that there's some sort of rumor that the Warden went to Antiva and they had a massive showdown. But that to me sounds more like legend than fact, so it's possible that the epilogues are to be taken with a grain of salt.

Your choices in Awakening, though, should have some impact.

Hope that made sense. It's very, very late.

Modifié par SgtElias, 15 février 2011 - 11:12 .

[nenosronhir]

@aramintai Foreshadowing for DA2? XD

In all seriousness, however(this post is spoileriffic for Awakenings);

Anders:
[quote]Remains with the Wardens.[/quote]
This is the only ending that can't really be fit to where DA2 picks up with him. Our Warden, however, vanishes after 2? years; so as far as the Warden is aware, this happened. It's possible he vanishes after that.

[quote]Leaves the Wardens, is later seen on a pirateship with a familiar woman.[/quote]
This seems to be the most likely "canon" epilogue for Anders.

[quote]Resigns from the Wardens, is captured thrice more and eventually vanishes for good.[/quote]
This epilogue also potentially fits without too much stretching.

[quote]Death by arrow.[/quote]
It's possible that Justice inhabits Anders' "dead" body soon enough that he is perhaps saved by the fusion?

Justice:
[quote] Dies defending the Vigil.[/quote]
Fits.

[quote]Serves with Wardens for "many years" until Aura eventually mentions she can't stand his state of decay, and vanishes.[/quote]
Depends on how many years, I suppose.

[quote]Serves the Wardens for "many years," eventually shows up on Aura's doorstep smiling, and falls over dead.[/quote]
Again, depends on the years. We're not even sure when Anders shows up in DA2, are we?

[quote]Leaves the Wardens, shows up on Aura's doorstep some time later.[/quote]
Tiiiiiiimeliiiiine.

[quote]Leaves immediately after the battle at Vigil's Keep.[/quote]
Fits.

[quote]Killed if the Warden sides with the Architect.[/quote]
He can always pop up to Anders later.

[quote]If not recruited, A mysterious figure in Grey Warden armor is
occasionally seen in the marsh, erecting gravestones to honor villagers
of old. In time, those sightings cease.[/quote]
Unlikely, since he probably wouldn't know Anders or his predicament.

I'm only snipping from the Wiki, so if there are other epilogues, list 'em. Seems to me like most of the endings either fit, or can be twisted to fit. In a "that's not exactly how it went down" kind of way, I suppose.

Modifié par nenosronhir, 15 février 2011 - 11:19 .

[AtreiyaN7]

@Polaris

Here's what makes me lean towards the mercy side of things and making an exception for him. When Anders made the deal, Justice was probably still the Justice we knew and loved/liked until after he joined with Anders. Therefore, in Anders's mind, he wasn't opening himself up to a demon. He was trying to help a friend who in turn offered to help him. It wasn't a matter of deception or ill intent; instead, it stemmed (in part) from good intentions, and things just went horribly wrong due to Anders's mental state and emotions twisting Justice. That's my take on it atm based on all the current information.

Also, in the short story he was in imminent danger. If Anders were captured and taken back this time, I expect that he would have been executed for being an abomination. Therefore, Anders/Vengeance acted in self-defense and because Vengeance took over, the results were predictably unpleasant. This Rolan fellow's betrayal probably didn't help matters any. If you've seen that recent clip of Anders, he's in Kirkwall and running some sort of clinic in which he heals a child. It seems that he has managed to regain some sembalnce of control (for now) and is trying to help people. He's definitely in serious trouble, but I don't think he's a completely lost cause just yet.

In DA:O. even someone as horrible as Loghain can be redeemed if you want to take that chance. Let's face it, what Anders and Vengeance did in seeming self-defense (or murderous rage if you prefer  ) pales in comparison to every evil thing Loghain made conscious choices about (betraying the Wardens, hiring assassins, engaging in slavery, poisoning Arl Eemon & killing oodles of people or at least being responsible for their deaths).

As far as Wynne goes, I remember the conversation with her and my Warden over whether or not someone who had a Fade spirit was an abomination by default, and I still believe in the answer I gave then, which is no, a person isn't an abomination if they still display those good qualities that defined them before the merging, things like mercy, kindness, etc.If you remember the special ability Wynne had, it was called the Vessel of the Spirit.

It stuns nearby enemies and restores some health, along with boosting mana regen and spellpower/willpower or whatever that other stuff was. Now that doesn't sound like something an abomination/demon would do - it's mainly defensive in nature and seems largely to be healing-related. If Wynne were an abomination of the sort people normally feared & hated (a la Uldred), wouldn't it be more likely that she'd have some sort of more offensive power?

Plus, if you note the color scheme of the Vessel ability, it seems to fall into the spirit healer category. Technically, our characters would be oblivious to this, but as a player, I noticed the color scheme matched up (with the dark blues & whites characteristic of that specialization). In any case, this has been one of the more interesting discussions and threads of late (and I'm not saying that JUST because of the half-naked picture of Anders a few pages okay *whistles innocently*).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 15 février 2011 - 11:29 .

[Aramintai]

@ nenosronhir
I wasn't judging all of the epilogues, only where Anders dies and where Justice serves Wardens for many years.
If Anders died then he would practically be some sort of undead abomination, since Justice lacks the ability to resurrect dead people (he can only possess the body). Otherwise Justice would have been able to revive that fallen Warden he inhabited in Awakening. Anders doesn't look like a walking corpse in DA II.

If you gave Anders to the Templars and/or didn't recruit Justice in Awakening at all, then Anders could not have been possessed by Justice, dead or otherwise, since they haven't met and didn't become friends.

If Justice serves the Wardens for many years then it would be too far fetched that he possessed Anders early on and ran away with him. And I do think that you meet Anders early on in DA II, him being a LI and one of the main characters.

That's three inconsistent epilogues, which are quite different from the recently announced Anders' "canon" DA II story.


Anyways, it all seems like: Here's Anders, he's in DA II. Deal with it.
Or: Fill in blank spots yourself, everything else we'll discard as Varric's lies and exaggerations.

Modifié par Aramintai, 15 février 2011 - 11:47 .

[nenosronhir]

@Aramintai Yeah, not arguing that there aren't inconsistencies. Likelihood is we're going to have to turn a blind eye to the epilogues that don't fit, but there's always the possibility that Anders won't be present in a savegame where he and/or Justice weren't plucked up.

Granted, if you hand Anders to the templars, it stands to reason that he'd eventually escape and vanish, and if you didn't pick up Justice, he eventually vanishes from the Blackmarsh, so "fate" could have it that they run into one another without the Warden's interference. Circumstances might result in the same predicament; Justice is still just, and Anders still hates the Chantry. They might not be friends, but neither were Wynne and her "protector" spirit, necessarily.

In DAO, you only meet Zevran after completing the first.. second? main plot arc, to be fair. Considering that DA2 takes places over 10 years, it's not completely unfeasible that Anders might be a later addition.

Anders' fatal wound might be repaired by Justice's possession, as with Wynne, if it happened soon enough. I get the impression that Kristoff was clearly days dead, so naturally he couldn't be revived - but if Anders' soul/spirit/what-have-you was lingering around long enough, Justice's influence might be enough to save him.

In regards to fitting it with the story snippet, this may have exhausted Justice enough where his consciousness didn't pop up until that unfortunate moment where Anders realised he was being betrayed, etc.

[sevalaricgirl]

I don't really pay attention to the epilogue slides because they don't make sense. Cous Warden married Alistair who still has the taint and is hopelessly in love with Cous warden, but she mysteriously leaves him, but if Cous warden didn't marry him, they go off together even if he is king. Just an example. I say forget about the epilogue slides and enjoy the game.

[SgtElias]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I don't really pay attention to the epilogue slides because they don't make sense. Cous Warden married Alistair who still has the taint and is hopelessly in love with Cous warden, but she mysteriously leaves him, but if Cous warden didn't marry him, they go off together even if he is king. Just an example. I say forget about the epilogue slides and enjoy the game.

Yeah, this pretty much.

And with that, I collapse into bed for the evening. G'night, Anders thread.

[nightcobra]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I don't really pay attention to the epilogue slides because they don't make sense. Cous Warden married Alistair who still has the taint and is hopelessly in love with Cous warden, but she mysteriously leaves him, but if Cous warden didn't marry him, they go off together even if he is king. Just an example. I say forget about the epilogue slides and enjoy the game.

The game refer me to two titles... Epilogue Prince-Consort... and in the game + in the codex King-Consort....

the codex has quite a few problems and inconsistecies but usually the game recognizes my choices even if the codex is wrong.

like having saved connor and isolde and in the codex it states isolde sacrificed herself to save connor.

or nathaniel being stated as dead in the codex while it states that he survived in the epilogue.

[The Elder King]

IanPolaris wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@Polaris Did you kill Sten or leave him for the darkspawn? He killed a family of innocents for no reason other than that they couldn't tell him where his sword was.

Not the same thing.  Sten shows regret for what he did, and it's not like I ever just "let him go".  His punishment is to fight the darkspawn, and if I had the materials for the joining, I would have recruited him into the wardens then and there.  It's still a death sentence but at least this way, you get some use out of him.

What Anders did was less forgivaeble if only because if a maleficar won't take this hard and uncomprosing line, then the Templars have all the excuse they need to continue their unjust system.

-Polaris

So if Sten was an abomination in the moment he killed this people you have killed him right? I can understand your point of view.
What I want to say is that, for what I understand, Anders has two personalties inside him now. One is the "normal" one, and the other is the "abomination": As I understand, is the "abomination" personality that killed and ate those people. Mind you, I don't say is forgiveable for this, only that he wasn't him. I can understand why you want to kill him.
The only thing that he'd like to point out is that eh didn't accepted Justice inside him for a personal desire. He reached the max level of freedom an Andrastian mage can reach, except the magisters. If he accepted Justice, it was for free other mages for Chantry control. This, and the fact that he seems to conserve a normal personality, lead me to find if there's a way to free him. But I hope for you that there's the possiblity to kill him right away, so you can be coherent with you view on the matter.

Out of curiosity, what did you do to the female blood mage on the Circle? Did you kill her or free her?

[ThatDancingTurian]

Okay, I'm feeling a little better about Anders now. I've just got to hope there's enough of old Anders there for my Hawke to fall in love with before he goes all crazy-pants, it's the only way I see this romance working.

Also, I know this convo has already passed, but there was some talk about killing Anders vs. not killing Anders, and I wanted to post my thoughts while I'm thinking them...

I think regardless of my apostate Hawke's opinions about mage politics, she would never kill Anders right off, not for any logical reason but from emotion clouding her judgement. When she first meets Anders he'll be saving the life of an innocent. It's a sign of humanity that throws into question everything she was taught about demons.

Like any mage, becoming an abomination is one of her greatest fears. It follows that she would want to believe you can be saved from abomination. Anders is doing the unthinkable, he's got a demon inside of him and he's fighting it. Killing him might be the safer thing, but letting him live and finding out if he can win this battle, that means a lot more to her.

As for whether or not she would kill him later on, I can't say. It depends on the circumstances, her options, and how much of an emotional connection she has to him. I'd say if we got a 'kill him or let him stay an abomination' option, she'd probably kill him, especially if she romances him. I just don't think he'd want to live as a monster, and she wouldn't want him to.

On a slightly less depressing note, I think we've figured out why the Templars set a trap for him in Kirkwall... I guess ol' Rolan sent word before his untimely demise.

EDIT: ::looks up:: Or maybe it hasn't already passed. ;

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 15 février 2011 - 12:39 .

[SurelyForth]

I can tell that I'm going to have to pull myself out of my first Hawke and try to approach DA2 and Situation: Anders as objectively as possible. I have such a clear idea of who Anders is to me, developed over almost a year of writing about him, and I know how I feel about people who are driven by vengeance (not a fan, really), so this is going to be a struggle.

Admittedly, the story has helped a great deal. I would even argue, per KoP's assertion that Justice was changing during Awakening, that Justice might have taken advantage of Anders. The situation with Rolan becoming a Warden AND being forced on Anders all the time would have created in Anders a more susceptible state of mind, and one that Justice could exploit because Anders trusted him as a friend. It's one thing to say that he should have been weary of him as a spirit, but their time spent together as Wardens no doubt changed the way Anders viewed him. From the story, it seems that Justice approached Anders at a crisis point and was supportive enough, familiar enough and Anders compromised enough that it seemed like the right thing to do.

That being said, my warrior will be a Reaver and eventually a Templar. As the daughter and sister of apostates, she'll be a card-carrying anti-Circle type, one unconcerned with the Chantry's reasons for controlling and limiting mages and one who doesn't hesitate to dabble in unsavory practices if it makes her more effective and doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it. Her approach to Anders will be shaped by her first impression, as a healer of refugees and a Grey Warden. She'll respect him before she knows about the demon and once she realizes why he allowed Justice in she'll recognize his cause as her cause.

Beyond that, who knows. She will protect him the best she can and she is certainly working towards the same end as he is. However, the road she takes might not be direct enough for the Justice/Vengeance side of Anders, or she might feel that he is becoming too volatile, thus endangering innocents and harming their cause. I'll just have to see what happens in the game.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 février 2011 - 01:23 .

[Jenova65]

Cypher0020 wrote...

Batteries wrote...

He probably only killed the templars/wardens because they were trying to kill him.

.... Cannot account for the blood drinking, flesh eating part.

I'm digging him more and more each day.

I know the top of page rule.

Wow..... that's the saddest yet hottest pic of Anders I've seen yet

Ugh, I'm so going to play my magehawke as someone who REALLY hates the Circle concept.....

It's criminal how good that pic is, incidentally it is also criminal what goes on my mind when I look at it.... At the very least it is adulterous, me being married............. 

[Johnny Shepard]

I wonder if DA2 will explaine the different Epilogues or just ignore it.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Good morning Anders fans!



I still have faith that we'll be able to ... cleanse Justice, so to speak? Every time I think about Anders' situation I remember something Wynne told the Warden -- something about being able to harness the power of spirit/demons without being taken over by them, or something like that. Anyone else remember that? Anyway, I think at his core Anders feels horrible about what has happened to Justice and would like for him to return to the way he was before Vengeance's madness consumes them both... So that they might fight for the right thing together. Is it too late for that now?



As for what my Hawke will feel for him... I had already decided long before Anders was revealed as a character for the game that the Templars seem to have an iron grip on Kirkwall. Abuse of power much? What happened to the protectors of the law and soldiers of the Maker from the first game? Of course, we saw some irrational behaviors in Templars in that game as well (Cullen comes to mind, but of course you can't exactly blame him for being driven to madness). The moral dilemma here is this: Is Anders right about the Templars/Chantry? Or are the Templars justified in their actions to protect mankind from people like Anders? What changes about those views when 1) you yourself or your sibling is an apostate who is hunted by said Templars, and 2) you consider that Anders' situation, along with many others for that matter, was exacerbated by the oppression by the Chantry?



And is that oppression necessary? Yes, the mages can be capable of terrible things, and are vulnerable to spirits and demons of the Fade. However, it did not take a Mage to overrun Highever, torture and kill hundreds, and plot to rise to power by whatever means necessary because he felt as if this power were due to him because of past deeds? Where is the protection against people like him? Are not even the most simplest of people capable of being wicked and malicious? Some would argue that if Mages were set free, then they would be more capable of committing such acts...



But can we not see in Anders' guilt and his want to heal others that he, like almost any of us, is just wanting to help? Did he really commit any crime to deserve such treatment in the past? Now that he has spilled the blood of his oppressors, that's a very hard question to answer...



Anyway, I hope that Hawke has the opportunity to understand these issues before coming to any conclusion about Anders. I myself cannot really blame him for what he did ... before that point, there is no indication that he ever did anything that would be considered wrong in my eyes, and that any of his present actions were a direct result of his being constantly made out to be guilty, with no chance of arguing his point or defending himself. Not even the Wardens, who has accepted criminals and basically anyone from all walks of life, could trust him in the end. It's... very sad to see that it has all driven him to this.



If anything, if my Hawke does (and probably will) romance him... I hope above anything that he might find a small bit of peace and normalcy before the end.

[Johnny Shepard]

Eshaye wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

This Awakening Epilogue:

"Anders will remain with the Grey Wardens to train the Order's next generation of mages. When he is called by the Circle of Magi to deliver a lecture on the nature of the Architect - much to the templars' dismay - he tells the Commander of the Grey that his time with the Wardens is over. No longer a part of the Wardens, the Chantry brands him an apostate, but never captures him. He is last seen on a pirate ship with a familiar woman."

How do I get it? If it really is Isabela then I would like to get that Epilogue and se what happens in DA2.

Anyone?

This is the ending I got as well here are my variables: 

Awakening *SPOILERS*

Warden is a Cousland married to Alistair
Friends with Anders
Tells Anders she will return to court
Defends Anders against templar lady
Does not kill the Architect
Fully upgraded Vigil's Keep
Left soldiers with the farmers
Defended Amarithine
Does not kill Architect's envoy and gets him to help out

Hm, like mine exept I was a Male Cousland and I tried to save everything with my soldiers. But still I got the ending where Anders leave to go to the Circle but returns later.
Maybe it has to do with "Tells Anders she will return to court"? When can you do that? I don't remember being able to tell Anders what I will do later.

[Russalka]

We should lobby for more Anders and Fenris pectorals.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Russalka wrote...

We should lobby for more Anders and Fenris pectorals.

...

I second this.

[ThatDancingTurian]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Russalka wrote...

We should lobby for more Anders and Fenris pectorals.

...

I second this.

Thirded!

I really hope since time is passing and relationships are progressing at a more natural pace, that we have more than one 'cutscene' for each romance. It's not necessary, but it'd be a nice addition. <3

[SurelyForth]

Johnny Shepard wrote...
Hm, like mine exept I was a Male Cousland and I tried to save everything with my soldiers. But still I got the ending where Anders leave to go to the Circle but returns later.

Maybe it has to do with "Tells Anders she will return to court"? When can you do that? I don't remember being able to tell Anders what I will do later.

He asks the Warden what s/he'll do when the stint in Amaranthine is finished. It's the conversation where he tells you about Mr. Wiggums keeping him company during his solitary confinement.

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I really hope since time is passing and relationships are progressing at a more natural pace, that we have more than one 'cutscene' for each romance. It's not necessary, but it'd be a nice addition.

As someone who squees hardest at things like Alistair's awkward confession of caring a great deal and Shepard walking backwards away from Garrus, smirk-grinning like a fool, my fondest wish is for the relationship to exist and be acknowledged in small ways outside of the obligatory awkward cutscene.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 février 2011 - 02:31 .

[Johnny Shepard]

SurelyForth wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...
Hm, like mine exept I was a Male Cousland and I tried to save everything with my soldiers. But still I got the ending where Anders leave to go to the Circle but returns later.

Maybe it has to do with "Tells Anders she will return to court"? When can you do that? I don't remember being able to tell Anders what I will do later.

He asks the Warden what s/he'll do when the stint in Amaranthine is finished. It's the conversation where he tells you about Mr. Wiggums keeping him company during his solitary confinement.

Ah, OK. I wonder if it will work with a Mage working in the court.

[Selenora]

Jenova65 wrote...

Cypher0020 wrote...

Batteries wrote...

He probably only killed the templars/wardens because they were trying to kill him.

.... Cannot account for the blood drinking, flesh eating part.

I'm digging him more and more each day.

I know the top of page rule.

Wow..... that's the saddest yet hottest pic of Anders I've seen yet

Ugh, I'm so going to play my magehawke as someone who REALLY hates the Circle concept.....

It's criminal how good that pic is, incidentally it is also criminal what goes on my mind when I look at it.... At the very least it is adulterous, me being married............. 

we can share our thoughts to find out who has the dirtiest mind lol