62 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyAvenger]

And he set up the slavery deal. And he organised the assassin to kill you. There's plenty of reasons to kill Howe even as not HN. Finally you can strip out Loghain's support before the Landsmeet.

[Glorfindel709]

And also, I dont really remember walking into a lot of places in Dragon Age and finding half a dozen various prisoners being locked up and tortured.

[NinjaRogue]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Where exactly does Howe state that the Couslands were traitors to the throne and he was taking care of them? I mean, it's a good *excuse* as to why he would do it should it come out into the light, but fact remains that based on the character we are introduced to in the game, Arl Howe is a violent, manipulative, power hungry man who always wants more (as evidenced by his dying words).

I think it was a little of both really. I also think he was insane. 

[NinjaRogue]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

And also, I dont really remember walking into a lot of places in Dragon Age and finding half a dozen various prisoners being locked up and tortured.

What?

[Glorfindel709]

So basically he saw himself getting less while Bryce Cousland continued to gain power due to diplomacy and some drunk fool thinking Bryce was the king (the only gift we ever hear about from an Orlesians).

classic psychology, he could not deal with the cognitive dissonance in the core of his being of not having power while a close friend continued to rise to power, so he saw what he wanted about the situation as justification for him continuing to operate under that dissonance


~~~~
Someone said that its' not like Howe is the only bad person in the world and in actuallity we find quite a few baddies throughout the world of Thedas that make us think of Howe as less than super evil Satan guy. I was saying that I personally cant recall walking around Ferelden and finding people being tortured except for Brother Genetivi in Haven, Jowans' claim during Redcliffe, and maybe Leske in the Carta Tunnels.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 09 février 2011 - 01:55 .

[NinjaRogue]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

So basically he saw himself getting less while Bryce Cousland continued to gain power due to diplomacy and some drunk fool thinking Bryce was the king (the only gift we ever hear about from an Orlesians).

classic psychology, he could not deal with the cognitive dissonance in the core of his being of not having power while a close friend continued to rise to power, so he saw what he wanted about the situation as justification for him continuing to operate under that dissonance.

I agree with you there. I still wish I could have put him on trial, a trial led by the king or queen.

[NinjaRogue]

[double post]

Modifié par NinjaRogue, 09 février 2011 - 01:55 .

[Glorfindel709]

See, that's where I disagree with you saying you wanted forgiveness and justice for him.



A) You cant ask for Justice and then suggest a Trial in which you are one of the people deciding his fate. You're too close to the case, and even if you "forgive him" you would be unable to act as an unbiased judge



Sometimes justice can't be found in court, especially when the man you're putting on trial is arguably the most powerful person in Ferelden at the time (He controlled the resources of 2 Arlings and a Teryn, not to mention the coast that the rest of Thedas uses to trade with Ferelden)

[NinjaRogue]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

See, that's where I disagree with you saying you wanted forgiveness and justice for him.

A) You cant ask for Justice and then suggest a Trial in which you are one of the people deciding his fate. You're too close to the case, and even if you "forgive him" you would be unable to act as an unbiased judge

Sometimes justice can't be found in court, especially when the man you're putting on trial is arguably the most powerful person in Ferelden at the time (He controlled the resources of 2 Arlings and a Teryn, not to mention the coast that the rest of Thedas uses to trade with Ferelden)

When I said King or Queen, I mean King Alistar or Queen Anora. And after the Landsmeet, if done right, he won't be able to bribe his way out of it. 

[Ferretinabun]

The City Elf purge is a fair point. Must've missed the evidence implicating Howe on the slavery deal - I thought it only implicated Loghain. Maybe I don't pay enough attention at that point.

But Zevran only implicates Loghain when you interrogate him. Though I suppose you could assume he elaborated later off-stage...

And Branka and Uldred don't have torture dungeons, but I'd call them out as bigger monsters than Howe (from the perspective of a non-HN warden).

[MKDAWUSS]

There was that line the HN could tell Howe to "Take it to the Landsmeet. They still hang murderers there."

[Ferretinabun]

Hmmm, at some point in this thread I seem to have done a 180. How did that happen, I wonder?

[Ferretinabun]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

There was that line the HN could tell Howe to "Take it to the Landsmeet. They still hang murderers there."

Really? What happens if you say that?

[NinjaRogue]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

There was that line the HN could tell Howe to "Take it to the Landsmeet. They still hang murderers there."

I am using it next time I get there. (I delted all files off my xbox to do one perfect run) I like what Madea says about forgiveness. "If you don't forgive someone, they hold power over you." 

It's not "wrong" that you kill him, I just wish we had another choice. 

[Glorfindel709]

Ok, I think we can all agree that the people of Ferelden at least operate on a concept of "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" mentality. Anora would feel obligated to do something in return for your support in making her queen, so she would seek vengence on your behalf against the man who killed your family. Thus her ability to act as an unbiased judge is compromised.



Alistair is even worse, you're essentially the only family each other has in the Wardens and he can become one of your closest friends of all companions. He would of course step up to defend and avenge you.



by deciding who is the King or Queen you are essentially one of the people deciding his fate, indirectly (unless of course you choose to Marry Alistair/Anora in which case you are directly deciding his fate)

[NinjaRogue]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Ok, I think we can all agree that the people of Ferelden at least operate on a concept of "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" mentality. Anora would feel obligated to do something in return for your support in making her queen, so she would seek vengence on your behalf against the man who killed your family. Thus her ability to act as an unbiased judge is compromised.

Alistair is even worse, you're essentially the only family each other has in the Wardens and he can become one of your closest friends of all companions. He would of course step up to defend and avenge you.

by deciding who is the King or Queen you are essentially one of the people deciding his fate, indirectly (unless of course you choose to Marry Alistair/Anora in which case you are directly deciding his fate)

I am under the impression that a "trial" would be held like a Landsmeet. With ALL the Lords making the decisions. Witness's against Howe:

That Nobles Son
Vaughn (If you don't kill him)
The Templar if he gets over his withdrawls.

HECK WHY CAN'T WE TRY TO MAKE HOWE A GREY WARDEN AND HAVE HIM DIE IN THE RITUAL?

I just wish we had some choice on whether we killed him or not. :/

[ddv.rsa]

Ferretinabun wrote...

The City Elf purge is a fair point. Must've missed the evidence implicating Howe on the slavery deal - I thought it only implicated Loghain. Maybe I don't pay enough attention at that point.
But Zevran only implicates Loghain when you interrogate him. Though I suppose you could assume he elaborated later off-stage...
And Branka and Uldred don't have torture dungeons, but I'd call them out as bigger monsters than Howe (from the perspective of a non-HN warden).

Can you really blame Uldred? A spell went wrong and he got possessed by a demon. From that point on he wasn't really in control of his actions.

He's guilty of conspiring with Loghain, blood magic, and summoning a demon. It can be argued that Loghain and Howe have both done worse.

[ejoslin]

Ferretinabun wrote...

The City Elf purge is a fair point. Must've missed the evidence implicating Howe on the slavery deal - I thought it only implicated Loghain. Maybe I don't pay enough attention at that point.
But Zevran only implicates Loghain when you interrogate him. Though I suppose you could assume he elaborated later off-stage...
And Branka and Uldred don't have torture dungeons, but I'd call them out as bigger monsters than Howe (from the perspective of a non-HN warden).

When you go back to Denerim, while you are still locked out of the Alienage, the guard will tell you this:

Guard: With the whole Urien family dead, the regent appointed Rendon Howe of Amaranthine the new arl of Denerim. First thing he did was lead a purge of the Alienage.

Edit: But Howe wasn't implicated as far as the slavery went, and you don't find out about that until after Howe is dead anyway.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2011 - 02:20 .

[Ferretinabun]

Actually now that I think about it:



Characters you have to kill include Howe, Jarvia and Uldred.



Characters you are given other options for include Branka, Kolgrim, the slave trader and Marjolaine.



Interesting...

[Ferretinabun]

In general, characters you HAVE to kill don't seem too much more degenerate than the ones you can spare.

So...

... perhaps the option to spare a character is not an in-game judgement on them as a character...???

[Glorfindel709]

They took the most outrageous moral decisions as the optional kills except for Marjolaine



Going for the super Pragmatic, side with Branka and the slave trader to gain golems for the army and a permanent increase to your health (that in the end really isnt that impressive for some dozens life forces going into it)



Going for the religious war movement, either side with the chantry devout and preserve the ashes of the prophet of the Maker, or destroy them through an act of sacrilege and the worship of false gods

[MKDAWUSS]

Ferretinabun wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

There was that line the HN could tell Howe to "Take it to the Landsmeet. They still hang murderers there."

Really? What happens if you say that?

Cauthrien ends that subconvo right there.

[NinjaRogue]

I would love to ask him this though







Howe...would you like to Taste the rainbow!

[ejoslin]

Ferretinabun wrote...

In general, characters you HAVE to kill don't seem too much more degenerate than the ones you can spare.
So...
... perhaps the option to spare a character is not an in-game judgement on them as a character...???

Howe attacks the warden, though.  Not the other way around.

[Ferretinabun]

At a push, I'd say probably because he's a plot device who has served his purpose by this point.