440 réponses à ce sujet

[Crackseed]

Chaos, thank you for the well tempered response - I apologize if my stance opposing yours felt inflammatory. Given your explanation, I appreciate that and will not raise anymore disagreement against it unless during the course of discussion it furthers a good debate.

I hope, for you, that ME3 will raise the bar and fall more in line with what you expect

Modifié par crackseed, 12 février 2011 - 03:53 .

[BounceDK]

Good game, very good. No way near the best, imho.

[MassEffect762]

Chaos Gate wrote...

It's been roughly one year since I played ME2, and the bitterness has failed to diminish. I saw an epic of a game disembowelled and repackaged into something very juvenile, something that barely touched the greatness of the first game, and all for the want of more money. I won't go as far as saying that ME2 was a sellout effort, but it certainly felt like it. I can't help but feel betrayed by Bioware. The first game was a masterpiece, even with its flaws.

And anyway, if the protests of a few could achieve changes in the sequel (changes that I strongly disagree with, as it ripped the heart and soul out of the franchise), then hopefully the ME2 detractors on this board can do the same with the third offering.

Personally, all I want for ME3 is for it to feel less shallow and not be aimed squarely at the Call of Duty crowd.

You said it brother.

[AlanC9]

Chaos Gate wrote...

Right.
So they "fixed" RPGs by getting rid of all the RPG elements and
converting the game into a mindless shooter with no story? That makes
sense.

A story you don't like != no story. But, yeah, this was snark rather than an argument. And not bad snark either, so let's let it go.

And is "looting" a swear word these days, is it? Why? What's wrong with looting? I love stumbling across new and mysterious items,
or defeating bosses specifically because I know there might be a chance of uncovering a powerful weapon. It gives me a thrill. Are gamers so
attention deficit disordered these days that they are too lazy to look
for and inspect a few items? If so, it's no wonder ME2 was so dumbed down.

Well, unlike some folks on this board, I won't presume to speak for "gamers." Just me.

I guess when I was a teenager playing AD&D I got a thrill from finding new powerful weapons. It wore off sometime around 1984 when my group discovered better RPG systems. Or rather, it had already worn off and that was why we saw the new systems were better.

Your ADD crack is cute, but pretty much the opposite of the truth. Loot is like kill XP; what it does is give you another pellet of rat chow to keep you wandering the maze. Hell, read your own post -- you say you like finding loot because it gives you "a thrill." Needing constant rewards is a hallmark of ADD.

Without these little rewards you have to play the game for other reasons. You know, like the role-playing, the story, the characters, stuff like that. That's what I get from RPGs.

[Schneidend]

As much as I like D&D, AlanC9 has a very valid point. There are a lot of tabletop roleplaying systems out there that have no loot, inventories, or experience gain whatsoever. The Fate system is a good example that I've actually played and run a game of. I run a Fate hack campaign for Mass Effect, in fact, where the closest thing to "loot" in the game is taking the Revenant, Widow, or Claymore as a Stunt, which is more like a D&D Feat than an actual item.

[AlanC9]

I never played Fate. No experience gain at all? I don't remember a system going that far since original Traveller.

[Therefore_I_Am]

Oh will you all stop crying over ME2 already?? I'm walking into this forum and the ground is littered with soaked tissues.
You should be proud that this sequel has done very well compared to other titles. It even garnered more attention to the ME series. Alot more than ME1 has. New people everyday are buying ME1 because of ME2, and falling in love with it nonetheless.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 12 février 2011 - 06:04 .

[Ulzeraj]

Schneidend wrote...
My "To hit" is determined,  not by my ability to punch my DM,  but by a reflection of my character's skill with his weapon as a die roll.

You know... sometimes punching a DM is a good idea.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 12 février 2011 - 06:20 .

[Lumikki]

Schneidend wrote...

As much as I like D&D, AlanC9 has a very valid point. There are a lot of tabletop roleplaying systems out there that have no loot, inventories, or experience gain whatsoever.

I think lack of experience of other system is what cause these narrow way to look situations. Like RPG is only this, because I haven't seen anything else, because that's how it's allways been. Like nothing else could not work or exist or aren't how it should be.

I have seen this same in mmorpg forums, where some players think levels and items are only way to make mmorpgs. Mostly because these players have never played mmorpg without those things.

I'm not saying that they idea what RPG is for them is wrong, but lack of tolerant to wider they consept of RPG isn't really that good. Like it has been this for long time, that is what it is. Good old days. In reality there is allways other possibilities and everyting will change in time, because we and technology change too.

[Gleym]

Ulzeraj wrote...

Schneidend wrote...
My "To hit" is determined,  not by my ability to punch my DM,  but by a reflection of my character's skill with his weapon as a die roll.

You know... sometimes punching a DM is a good idea.

Only if the DM is doing something wrong on purpose. By that logic, if ME2 was a DM, he should be taken out behind the house and curvestomped.

[Schneidend]

AlanC9 wrote...

I never played Fate. No experience gain at all? I don't remember a system going that far since original Traveller.

It's a fun system, especially the rules for emulating the Dresden Files series of novels that came out recently, which is what I've been using to emulate the ME universe in Mass Effect: Spectral Line.

Anyway, obligatory pimping of Fate and my campaign aside, there is indeed no "x amount of experience for challenge overcome" mechanic in Fate.

You can potentially be moved up to the next "power level" in the Dresden rules (basically, how big a deal you are in the magical community), but that's really not at all necessary and there's no real mechanic for getting there. It's basically up to the GM whether you "level up" or not.

Schneidend wrote...
My "To hit" is determined,  not by my ability to punch my DM,  but by a reflection of my character's skill with his weapon as a die roll.

To clarify, I wasn't the one who said the above.

Modifié par Schneidend, 12 février 2011 - 09:37 .

[lawp79]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Chaos Gate wrote...

It's been roughly one year since I played ME2, and the bitterness has failed to diminish. I saw an epic of a game disembowelled and repackaged into something very juvenile, something that barely touched the greatness of the first game, and all for the want of more money. I won't go as far as saying that ME2 was a sellout effort, but it certainly felt like it. I can't help but feel betrayed by Bioware. The first game was a masterpiece, even with its flaws.

And anyway, if the protests of a few could achieve changes in the sequel (changes that I strongly disagree with, as it ripped the heart and soul out of the franchise), then hopefully the ME2 detractors on this board can do the same with the third offering.

Personally, all I want for ME3 is for it to feel less shallow and not be aimed squarely at the Call of Duty crowd.

You said it brother.

I couldnt agree more.

[Phaedon]

Gatt9 wrote...
I strongly disagree.

An RPG is about taking on the Role fo the Character and all of his skills and abilities.  Which requires that your personal skill is irrelevant,  your character's skill is relevant.  My "To hit" is determined,  not by my ability to punch my DM,  but by a reflection of my character's skill with his weapon as a die roll.

Mass Effect 2 disregards this.  Your Character's skill is irrelevant,  your "To hit" is determined solely by your ability to punch the DM so to speak.  This makes the representation on screen not a Role,  but an Avatar for the Player.  Which is a defining characteristic of a shooter.

This is further highlighted by the fact that Paragon/Villian decisions are factors of pure skill in pressing a sudden random button,  not by any representation of your character's personality.  "Press a button to do the right thing!". 

ME2 is not by any means an RPG,  it is all about your personal skill,  not about the Role you take on.  A little bit of dialogue doesn't change this,  especially since most of it is irrelevant,  as I'll touch on in a moment.

This post made me rage. You do know that the only reason that stats were introduced in RPGs is because there was no way for the player to interact with the game himself, right? Sport and Simulation games are far better RPGs than Planescape Torment if you use this criteria, you know that?

I'm given a mission to go to the wreckage of the Fleet's premiere ship,  staffed by some of the most skilled members of the fleet to find missing crewmen.  I get there and proceed to discover...that some of the crewmen who were highly trained and skilled decided the best thing to do during a evacuation was to climb inside a random box.

Then,  the highly trained and skilled recovery team sent to locate missing crew members before me apparently could not figure out how to open said boxes and look inside for crew members whose IQ's apparently dropped to the level of a household pet in an emergency.

I still can't understand what boxes you are talking about.

I'm wandering around a lawless quarantine zone,  looting every apartment I can.  I enter one,  find the owners still there,  tell them where to go for safety...and then I loot it...in front of them...without a word of protest.  A few apartments later,  I find looters stripping an apartment bare...where I proceed to lecture them about the evils of looting...after I'd been looting...in front of the apartments owners.

You know that this happenned in ME1 as well, and that the outdated looting thing has been around for decades, right? 

The writing has no consistency or logic.  My actions are irrelevant,  with no bearing on future interactions,  and often just outright doesn't make sense.  So yes,  the story does largely need dismissed.

Now you are trolling.

[Phaedon]

Fixers0 wrote...
You're also biasing here, you were thinking when reading the text that this is another attempt to bring Mass effect 2 plot down, but it isn't a review, it's an analysis, he points out good things and says the majority of the game is awesome, but he said that he would focus more on the bad things, which is just occupies a small part of the story, he isn't biased or anything he is just making an analysis with attention to the bad things.

No, you don't do an analysis by trying very hard to break the game and failing half of the time.

I don't agree with everything he says, but 80% of his analysis sounds very reasonable to me, Such as
1.The part from'' the main plot'' to ''no good reason'' in  which he explains what happend to Mass effect.
2. The whole opening scene, and what follows doesn't make much sense from a trilogy perspective.
3.The Collectors in general and how the were almost retconned into the story.
4.The Collectors plan wasn't explained to us and thus didn't made much sense.
5. The wrapping up part.

And what you have posted is just further evidence to support my position.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

I love how everyone is not justifying the 'ME2 is not an RPG'.

ME2 is a hybrid. Also, every time I hear to someone say that Deus Ex is a 'shooter with a few RPG elements', I urge myself not to headdesk.

Even THAT game?!

[Mister Mida]

I'm gonna be nitpicking for a bit. ME2 can't be called the best RPG of the last decade because last decade ended at 00:00 AM January 1 2010. And even then, ME2 != RPG of the decade. I'd pick KotOR for that title over ME2.

[CroGamer002]

Mister Mida wrote...

I'm gonna be nitpicking for a bit. ME2 can't be called the best RPG of the last decade because last decade ended at 00:00 AM January 1 2010. And even then, ME2 != RPG of the decade. I'd pick KotOR for that title over ME2.

I agree.
ME2 did deserved RPG of the year 2010 but of the decade?

[Phaedon]

Mesina2 wrote...
Even THAT game?!

See, I thought that the RPG playerbase was the more mature and intelligent one (after adventure players of course), until I started participating heavily on gaming forums. Now I know that it's full of elitists.

As the great Skilled Seeker once said:
'u r not tru rpg! u r pew pew n00b'

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 février 2011 - 09:57 .

[Phaedon]

Mister Mida wrote...
And even then, ME2 != RPG of the decade. I'd pick KotOR for that title over ME2.

ME2 is not the greatest RPG in the terms of being best at err being an RPG. That's impossible, it's a hybrid.
But according to these guys, it counts as an RPG, and they had more fun playing than the rest. So, I guess that it counts as the best RPG?

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...
And even then, ME2 != RPG of the decade. I'd pick KotOR for that title over ME2.

ME2 is not the greatest RPG in the terms of being best at err being an RPG. That's impossible, it's a hybrid.
But according to these guys, it counts as an RPG, and they had more fun playing than the rest. So, I guess that it counts as the best RPG?

I guess it's just favouritism, like many things are.

[Phaedon]

Favouritism? No. He enjoys this game more than the rest of RPGs, and it's an RPG, so it's the best RPG in his opinion?

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...

Favouritism? No. He enjoys this game more than the rest of RPGs, and it's an RPG, so it's the best RPG in his opinion?

I guess.

[Whatever42]

No computer game can be a real RPG. It's like comparing a store mannaquin to a blowup doll and debating which is the better girlfriend. We can argue that the mannaquin looks more like the girlfriend or the blowup doll feels more like the girlfriend but neither are the real deal.

But I'm going to surrender. I think we do need a new category. Just like turn-based strategy and RTS are now two completely different categories. Both certain involve strategy but they are just too different to lump together.

Actually, we might need more categories. There are different two axis with which to determine categories: the degree to which the gameplay is stats-based and the linearity of the storytelling.

The problem there, though, is putting games in the applicable categories. Fallout 3 has a ton of stats. Yet you still have to put the crosshairs on the enemy. Sure, damage is dependent on stats but ME2 damage is also a little dependent on stats. DA:O combat, meanwhile, is completely tactical, no aiming required. So if Bethesda games might have to go into the RTRPG category. If you have to actually put the crosshairs on somethign to hit it, its an RTRPG.

But Fallout 3 and ME2 are still very different games: FO3 is very open world while ME2 is very cinematic with strong storytelling. So we need OWRTRPG and CRTRPG.

So the we have the other Axis. Both DA:O and JRPGs are stats based. Yet JRPGs are very linear. We already divide the two genres in JRPG and western RPG but we should probably do something more formal, we need a term that leaves out the cultural differences. So we should have statistics-based linear RPG (SBLRPG) and statistics-based non-linear RPG (SBNLRPG).

So we need to write all the gaming magazines and gaming organizations and let them know that there is no longer an RPG category but OWRTRPG, CRTRPG, SBLRPG, and SBNLRPG categories..

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 12 février 2011 - 11:26 .

[Funker Shepard]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

ME2 is greater than any other RPG in the last ten years because it changed RPGs. Dull combat? Gone. Boring looting? Gone. Complex inventory? Gone.

What's left? Pure role playing. You interact with character, make choices with them, roll through fun action sequences, customize your characters, and unfold a story. You can't beat ME2 as an RPG.

Not quite how I would have put it, but I fully agree with you. ME2 threw out a lot of CRPG tropes that a lot of P&P RPGs have gotten rid off before. Just because you can't draw a line to D&D from every aspect of the gameplay doesn't make it not-RPG... 

That said, could've used a bit more options in the gun department out of the box, and wouldn't have minded a bit more options with equipping my NPCs (more than I still have).

[Nachituy]

an rpg is a game that you can role play , shape the personalty of your character and make decistions , and THATS IT



it dose not mention the need of inventory , skill , xp , loot or anthing like that



so me2 is an rpg by definition , like it or not



"A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development."



also , saying diablo 2 is an rpg its like saying crysis is a car game becouse you can drive cars in game